Originally posted by ExodusCloakTwo times? And he's faced them how many times? Add to that the fact that their now living in the Avengers Tower (a place more secure than the White House). How many street level criminals have tried to gain leverage over other superpowered public heros. With all the heros Marvel has, the number of incidents where family members have been endangered can be counted on both hands. People know that striking at his family won't get them what they want. It won't satify their need for revenge, and it doesn't do a good job of getting people to do what you want. Why do you think Osborne has only threated his Aunt once after all these years?
Two villians = Two Times.
Whole World = Anyone, including low leveled criminals who want to gain leverage over Spiderman.
Also imagine the media backlash if Spidey makes a mistake.
Originally posted by willRulesAnd it only takes one time to kill the family member of a detective that's gotten too close, or a judge that won't take a bribe, but the reality of it is that family member endangerment isn't that common. Add to that the fact that they would have protection similar to Secret Service equivilent from SHIELD and I'd say their safe.
But it only takes one time to kill MJ or may.........
Originally posted by BlaqChaos
Two times? And he's faced them how many times? Add to that the fact that their now living in the Avengers Tower (a place more secure than the White House). How many street level criminals have tried to gain leverage over other superpowered public heros. With all the heros Marvel has, the number of incidents where family members have been endangered can be counted on both hands. People know that striking at his family won't get them what they want. It won't satify their need for revenge, and it doesn't do a good job of getting people to do what you want. Why do you think Osborne has only threated his Aunt once after all these years?
So you're suggesting that they keep MJ and Aunt May indoor in the Avengers Tower 24/7 or are they allowed outside with escorts? What kind of life is that, always looking over your shoulder.
People know that Johnny Storm had nothing to do with the explosion at the beginning of Civil War, yet they still attacked him.
Another issue to be raised is the Government, what do they plan to do with all this information. Do they decide who gets saved and who doesn't. Can the super heroes act without their permission.(Bloodties and Genosha). In X-Men 198 they tagged every mutant with a device that is capable of rendering them useless if they rebelled. It won't be long till the Government does the same to the Super Heroes. The Government will also develop ways of rendering each hero useless if they don't comply or refuse to do a government mission. Just like the 198, using Reed Richards against Franklin if he steps out of line.
Then there's the whole issue of the Government having total control over the Marvel Telepaths and Reality Warpers. They could brainwash the entire state into thinking what they want to think. If the TP's refused they find ways of forcing them to comply via blackmail, torture, brainwashing etc.
Finally not every super powered being is lucky enough to have the protection of the Avengers tower.
Originally posted by BlaqChaos
And it only takes one time to kill the family member of a detective that's gotten too close, or a judge that won't take a bribe, but the reality of it is that family member endangerment isn't that common. Add to that the fact that they would have protection similar to Secret Service equivilent from SHIELD and I'd say their safe.
Shield cannot be monitoring the family members of every super hero 24/7.
Plus what about those super powered people who refuse to work for shield and prefer to work in a grocery store do they still get protection with their identity revealed. Or are they forced to become super heroes.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
So you're suggesting that they keep MJ and Aunt May indoor in the Avengers Tower 24/7 or are they allowed outside with escorts? What kind of life is that, always looking over your shoulder.
No, I'm suggesting that they lives the same lives that the family of EVERY law enforcement officer leads.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
People know that Johnny Storm had nothing to do with the explosion at the beginning of Civil War, yet they still attacked him.
So...what? You want them to live their live based on the fear of what other people MIGHT do to them. You want them to hide in holes and not stand proud? That's like an Islamic person hiding their heratage after 9/11.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Another issue to be raised is the Government, what do they plan to do with all this information. Do they decide who gets saved and who doesn't. Can the super heroes act without their permission.(Bloodties and Genosha).
Only to the extent that normal law enforcers go through. Does the government tell cops who they can and can't protect? If a US Martial sees a crime in progress, can they still act to protect someone?
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
In X-Men 198 they tagged every mutant with a device that is capable of rendering them useless if they rebelled. It won't be long till the Government does the same to the Super Heroes. The Government will also develop ways of rendering each hero useless if they don't comply or refuse to do a government mission. Just like the 198, using Reed Richards against Franklin if he steps out of line.
The SRA gives superpowered being two options. 1) Retire from actice superhero duty and keep your secret of who you are. 2) Continue your active superhero activities but only under the authority of the government like every other cop on the planet does.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Then there's the whole issue of the Government having total control over the Marvel Telepaths and Reality Warpers. They could brainwash the entire state into thinking what they want to think. If the TP's refused they find ways of forcing them to comply via blackmail, torture, brainwashing etc.
Just becuase one is capable of an act does not mandate that they must execute that act. Xavier can jump in cerebro and brainwash the entire country into think what he thinks, but he hasn't. The government isn't violating anyone's rights, their enforcing the law. Why would the government want to brainwash a state?
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Finally not every super powered being is lucky enough to have the protection of the Avengers tower.
Why would they need it? Why would they or their families be in any more danger than an FBI agents or a US Martials?
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Shield cannot be monitoring the family members of every super hero 24/7.
Why would that even be necessary. The SRA doesn't mandate that heros go public with their identity, only that they reveal their identity to the government. The government can keep a secret. How many CIA agents do you personally know? How about FBI agents? Anyone in covert ops?
Originally posted by ExodusCloakNo, if they don't want to work for the government, they simply quit being a superhero. They'l still have their powers, and if they actually SEE a crime in progress, they'll be free to act just like any other citizen; but they would no longer be able to go out and activly look for crime to fight or people to help.
Plus what about those super powered people who refuse to work for shield and prefer to work in a grocery store do they still get protection with their identity revealed. Or are they forced to become super heroes.
That may sound harsh, but imagine if I decided to put together my own masked firefighting team. We'd go to a burnig building and get there before the real firefighters and go in to help people. But because we lack experiance and training some people die. Who's held accountable? I can say I was just trying to help, but if I REALLY want to help I'd do things the right and legal way. I'd join a firedepartment and get training and authorization.
Originally posted by A.JCops do have hundreds of enemies, but no those enemies don't have superpowers. But the superheros with hundreds of enemies do have superpowers.
Actulally worse lives because cops dont have hundredes of enemies with superpowers.
Cops have no powers and have hundreds of enemies with no powers.
Superheros have superpowers and have hundreds of enemies with superpowers.
Originally posted by BlaqChaos
No, I'm suggesting that they lives the same lives that the family of EVERY law enforcement officer leads.
But superheroes though similar aren't like law enforcement officers, they fight super villians with powers, and some of these villians are capable of leveling whole cities. You expect the families of these superheroes to feel safe and continue living their lives? There are enough Kingpins out there who can buy this information of the Government. The Hellfire Club itself, not that they would need to have the resources to get this information.
So...what? You want them to live their live based on the fear of what other people MIGHT do to them. You want them to hide in holes and not stand proud? That's like an Islamic person hiding their heratage after 9/11.
And yet there is still so much discrimination against the Islamic community. It's sickening the way angry mobs can drive whole families out of their homes because they believe in a different faith. So yes IMO it is better to hide, and live in fear then put your own families at risk.
The Mutants know this better then anyone else. Mankind will alway envy what it does not have, and will always fear what it does not understand. It's inevitable . It is only a matter of time till Villians and the Public gain this knowledge,
Only to the extent that normal law enforcers go through. Does the government tell cops who they can and can't protect? If a US Martial sees a crime in progress, can they still act to protect someone?
Why does Sebastian Shaw have immunity then?(See 198 files) If that's not pick and choose then I don't know what is. That means the wealthy villians can get away with anything.
The SRA gives superpowered being two options. 1) Retire from actice superhero duty and keep your secret of who you are. 2) Continue your active superhero activities but only under the authority of the government like every other cop on the planet does.
As stated before it is very easy to obtain this information. Shaw and Kingpin are great examples.
Just becuase one is capable of an act does not mandate that they must execute that act. Xavier can jump in cerebro and brainwash the entire country into think what he thinks, but he hasn't. The government isn't violating anyone's rights, their enforcing the law. Why would the government want to brainwash a state?
If one is desperate enough, then abusing power is an option. One could brainwash a state to force the public to agree with a new law or to win an election. One could brainwash the whole country to force the public to do what they want. Raise taxes for military means, allow a war etc.
Why would they need it? Why would they or their families be in any more danger than an FBI agents or a US Martials?
Why would that even be necessary. The SRA doesn't mandate that heros go public with their identity, only that they reveal their identity to the government. The government can keep a secret. How many CIA agents do you personally know? How about FBI agents? Anyone in covert ops?
The information can be bought easily.
No, if they don't want to work for the government, they simply quit being a superhero. They'l still have their powers, and if they actually SEE a crime in progress, they'll be free to act just like any other citizen; but they would no longer be able to go out and activly look for crime to fight or people to help.That may sound harsh, but imagine if I decided to put together my own masked firefighting team. We'd go to a burnig building and get there before the real firefighters and go in to help people. But because we lack experiance and training some people die. Who's held accountable? I can say I was just trying to help, but if I REALLY want to help I'd do things the right and legal way. I'd join a firedepartment and get training and authorization.
I'm not saying there are no pros to the SRA, for example I imagine the heroes are getting paid for working with Shield. And like you said we won't get any inexperienced heroes messing up the day.(I still blame channel 8 for that). It just seems that the cons out way the pros.
I still think it comes down to the big question, do you choose to do what you know to be right or what you know to be legal????? The Marvel universe has its own form of government bureaucracy and mistrust and it has just reared its ugly head.
There is the idea that because we as readers automatically break the fourth wall we have a greater understanding of our anti-registration heroes motives and actions. This is also true. However it doesn't make their viewpoint any less valid. There is a certain amount of leverage and trust required by the MU government to let heroes perform their duties. the president and everyone at shield is willing to shake Cap's or spidey's hand for saving the planet, but when a school full of kids die as a result of a group of inexperienced pranksters who should have gone to Xavier's, it becomes the fault of every hero out there..........
In my opinion, it comes down to what is right and wrong and what is legal and illegal being completely different things. Sometimes things that are "right" are illegal and things that are "wrong", illegal. But thats because in the MU, democracy is dying a slow and painful death 🙁
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
But superheroes though similar aren't like law enforcement officers, they fight super villians with powers, and some of these villians are capable of leveling whole cities. You expect the families of these superheroes to feel safe and continue living their lives?
Like I said, no one is putting a gun to these people's heads and making them go out and fight crime. They made that decision on their own. If they were so concerned about reprecussions against their families, then they wouldn't go out at all. Spider-man was all set to retire from superhero activities when MJ was pregnant, but when she "lost" the baby, he went back on the job. He knows, that even with a secret ID, there's the possibility that someone could find out who he is and strike out against his family, be he's judged that as an acceptable risk. Let me say that one more time. He judged that him still going out on the streets was an acceptable level of risk and danger to his family.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
There are enough Kingpins out there who can buy this information of the Government. The Hellfire Club itself, not that they would need to have the resources to get this information.
They can try and buy this off of the government, but it's not as easy as you have stated. You don't think that there are litterally thousands of nations and groups and individuals trying to buy or steal this sort of information all the time. Yet the point it that they rarely succeed.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
And yet there is still so much discrimination against the Islamic community. It's sickening the way angry mobs can drive whole families out of their homes because they believe in a different faith. So yes IMO it is better to hide, and live in fear then put your own families at risk.
It's sickening, but it keeps happening. It keeps happening because people hide and try to blend in rather than to take a stand against it. There's more to life than just survival, and if you're hiding who and what you are you aren't really living life. Take Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. He knew that his actions placed not only himself, but his family in danger. But did he stop? Did he try to blend in and not make waves because it was the "safe" thing to do? No. He defiantly stood proud like a man willing to accept the consequneces of his actions, whatever they may be. I'm sorry, but hiding who and what you are because you fear other people's reactions to you is the cowards way out.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
The Mutants know this better then anyone else. Mankind will alway envy what it does not have, and will always fear what it does not understand. It's inevitable . It is only a matter of time till Villians and the Public gain this knowledge,
That's an assumption, not a fact. This country, hell this entire planet has a long history of being able to keep secrets when necessary. And as far as the mutants hiding goes... Charles Xavier is happy that Cassandra Nova revealed his identity and the truth of the Institute to the world. He felt that she had releaved him of a burdon. A burdon that he was always to scared to try to releave himself off in the past.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
If one is desperate enough, then abusing power is an option. One could brainwash a state to force the public to agree with a new law or to win an election. One could brainwash the whole country to force the public to do what they want. Raise taxes for military means, allow a war etc.
But this is a threat that they already face on a daily basis. SHIELD has psi-ops sections that can do just this. But have they? No. Why do you think it would happen under the SRA if it's not happening already?
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
Remember what happened to the Punisher? His whole family was wiped out.
Remember what happened in DC's Kingdom Come? Superpowered people running rampant across the planet with no control, no oversight, no checks and balances system. Marvel is quickly heading down that road, and the government is trying to nip the situation in the bud while they still can. You Punisher example is an example of one family (a few people) being killed (via a mob retalliation). My Kingdom Come example is an example of thousands of families (over a million people) being killed (via the fight between Captain Atom and the Parasite). If I had to make a choice, I chose the former over the latter. I chose the risk of having the SRA in place over the risk of allowing the superpowered population continue to do as they please whenever and whereever they want. I chose the risk of having the family and friends of a licensed superhero that voluntarily works for the government endangered, over endangering the lives of every last man, woman, and child on the planet.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I'm not saying there are no pros to the SRA, for example I imagine the heroes are getting paid for working with Shield. And like you said we won't get any inexperienced heroes messing up the day.(I still blame channel 8 for that). It just seems that the cons out way the pros.
And I'm not saying that there are no cons to the SRA, but in this case I believe that the pros outweigh the cons.
Originally posted by willRules
I still think it comes down to the big question, do you choose to do what you know to be right or what you know to be legal?????
Yes, but when you get into the question of what's "right" it becomes tricky, because everyone has their own definition of what's right. For instance, the Ku Klux Klan believes that it was right to keep Black Americans as second class citizens or even animals. The Nazis believed it was right to exterminate the Jew. So just going off the personal values of an individual or group can not be the answer.
Likewise, for decades it was illegal for women or blacks to vote in America. So, just going off what is or is not legal is not the answer either.
This conumdrum can't be blamed on the MU democracy, but rather on society as a whole. The values of a society is what forges both the laws and what is considered right and wrong. If a society is decaying, then it's laws and morals will decay along with it.
Originally posted by BlaqChaos
Like I said, no one is putting a gun to these people's heads and making them go out and fight crime. They made that decision on their own. If they were so concerned about reprecussions against their families, then they wouldn't go out at all. Spider-man was all set to retire from superhero activities when MJ was pregnant, but when she "lost" the baby, he went back on the job. He knows, that even with a secret ID, there's the possibility that someone could find out who he is and strike out against his family, be he's judged that as an acceptable risk. Let me say that one more time. He judged that him still going out on the streets was an acceptable level of risk and danger to his family
Okay then, so what happens if ALL the superheroes with families decide to hang up their tights? How will the government protect there country from rampant maniacs then? Sentinels are not enough,(Vulcan showed us this). Who is going to protect the Earth from alien invasions? Heroes feel that it's their responsibility to use their powers for good.
They can try and buy this off of the government, but it's not as easy as you have stated. You don't think that there are litterally thousands of nations and groups and individuals trying to buy or steal this sort of information all the time. Yet the point it that they rarely succeed.
As stated before, Shaw and Wilson Fisk are part of the Government and yes they have the resources to get this information. Hell Mystique could breeze her way through security and get it. It is very easy to get this information when you have that sort of power and influence. (Remember the Punisher)
It's sickening, but it keeps happening. It keeps happening because people hide and try to blend in rather than to take a stand against it. There's more to life than just survival, and if you're hiding who and what you are you aren't really living life. Take Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. He knew that his actions placed not only himself, but his family in danger. But did he stop? Did he try to blend in and not make waves because it was the "safe" thing to do? No. He defiantly stood proud like a man willing to accept the consequneces of his actions, whatever they may be. I'm sorry, but hiding who and what you are because you fear other people's reactions to you is the cowards way out.
No that's not true, it keeps happening because they don't try to blend in. The Islamic Community does not blend in very well with western society because of their beliefs and values. They stand against it yes but they don't blend in. They don't drink, meaning socializing through alcohol goes out the window. The way they dress, shows that they are different, that they have a different way of life. The whole incident that occured in the UK was for this very reason. The Islamic Society finds it very difficult to integrate itself into western society. Though standing up for what you believe in is noble, it is not the clever thing to do in a society where the media and government demonise your culture and beliefs. It is not the smart thing to do when there are thugs out there like Stryker who with this knowledge killed 50+ mutant children.
Also about standing up for what you believe in, Capt and his side believe that the SRA is wrong. Aren't they standing up for what they believe in, even though it means defying the government? When black people were oppressed in South Africa, Nelson Mandela stood up against the Government for his rights and his beliefs. That's the same thing the Super Heroes are doing. Even if Spidey quit, he would still need to register as a super powered being. Meaning both ways his family would be at risk.
That's an assumption, not a fact. This country, hell this entire planet has a long history of being able to keep secrets when necessary. And as far as the mutants hiding goes... Charles Xavier is happy that Cassandra Nova revealed his identity and the truth of the Institute to the world. He felt that she had releaved him of a burdon. A burdon that he was always to scared to try to releave himself off in the past.
Actually Xavier isn't happy. Because of that very incident the XIOHL was revealed as a mutant school meaning it wasn't a safe haven anymore. And after the House of M Stryker managed to kill 50+ students.
But this is a threat that they already face on a daily basis. SHIELD has psi-ops sections that can do just this. But have they? No. Why do you think it would happen under the SRA if it's not happening already?
Shield has so many secrets I'm suprised that it hasn't happened already. The Goverment has already abused their power I see no reason why they won't do it again. Sebastian Shaw has been granted immunity from O.N.E. Why is that? What makes him different? Does that mean the wealthier you are the more you get away with?
Remember what happened in DC's Kingdom Come? Superpowered people running rampant across the planet with no control, no oversight, no checks and balances system. Marvel is quickly heading down that road, and the government is trying to nip the situation in the bud while they still can. You Punisher example is an example of one family (a few people) being killed (via a mob retalliation). My Kingdom Come example is an example of thousands of families (over a million people) being killed (via the fight between Captain Atom and the Parasite). If I had to make a choice, I chose the former over the latter. I chose the risk of having the SRA in place over the risk of allowing the superpowered population continue to do as they please whenever and whereever they want. I chose the risk of having the family and friends of a licensed superhero that voluntarily works for the government endangered, over endangering the lives of every last man, woman, and child on the planet.
The Punisher example is to show you how easy it is to obtain that kind of information. He trusted the Government with his identity and look what happened. The thing that they fear the most has already happened because of the SRA. A Civil war has already begun, the Superheroes are divided, the Government failed. And there will be a lot of loss.
And I'm not saying that there are no cons to the SRA, but in this case I believe that the pros outweigh the cons.
IMO the greater evil is the SRA as more lives will be lost in the War.
Originally posted by ExodusCloak
When black people were oppressed in South Africa, Nelson Mandela stood up against the Government for his rights and his beliefs. That's the same thing the Super Heroes are doing. Even if Spidey quit, he would still need to register as a super powered being. Meaning both ways his family would be at risk.
Let's not get Mandella involved in this , he is on a very thin rope between Terroist and Freedom fighter.