Darth Vader(TESB) vs Count Dooku(ROTS)

Originally posted by jollyjim311
[B]If PT Jedi > Vader, he would have been replaced by one (Jerec?). He wouldn't have been able to beat them (actual battles are in EU, but the reference is in ANH). Lastly, a lot of his feats are far beyond that of PT Jedi. Planet, try not to be completely ridiculous.[B]

Since when is Jerec a PT jedi? What some people don't seem to understand is that PT refers to the movies, not the era. GL was only referring to the jedi we see in the films, as was I.

Also, Vaders EU Skills > Dookus.

Bullshit, don't be ridiculous.

Just like you proved that ESB Luke is as strong as Qui-Gon, right? You guys didn't prove shit, you just had more numbers, that's all it was. By Lucas' own admission, Dooku is a stronger duelist than Vader is. What Lucas says goes, a bunch of whiny fanboys do not change that.

1.) How did you know such a thread existed (ESB Luke vs. QGJ) unless you were poor old Sexist....and please, I did give a much better for Luke than QGJ supporters. Luke is close to QGJ, not equal, but close.

2.) Wow, obviously you don't anything. Why don't you read the thread and then comment.

By Lucas' own admission, Dooku is a stronger duelist than Vader is. What Lucas says goes, a bunch of whiny fanboys do not change that.

We are not a bunch of whiny fanboys. You have to prove that. You are using a logical fallacy, Ad Hominem (to the man), insulting the arguer instead of the argument.

I dont ever recall you proving anything of the sort. I do remember however 1000+ posts on the subject, which still got us nowhere so we decided to call it even. Dont even try to say you won the debate, because you would be sadly mistaking.

What we did is crushed the Dooku argument, and only because you were proven as a fanboy and wouldn't give up and we all decided not to leave you in the cold, we agreed to disagree. Why do you think so many people here accept Vader > Dooku (or at the very least, equal), because we proved it and a much better argument than your side.

And sadly, maybe you should give credit to others. I did not win the debate, my team did (Kadesh, Subjekt, Jollyjim, Advent, Myself, Blaxican, and others whom I apologize I didn't specifically mention).

Originally posted by General Kenobl
[B]What we did is crushed the Dooku argument, and only because you were proven as a fanboy and wouldn't give up and we all decided not to leave you in the cold, we agreed to disagree. Why do you think so many people here accept Vader > Dooku (or at the very least, equal), because we proved it and a much better argument than your side.

😆 😆 😆

Thats the biggest load of bullsh*t I have heard and you know it. Crushed the Dooku arument? Hardly. You had the same argument then as you do now, which is still being refuted by Dooku supporting members. For you to blatantly say you won, when you did nothing of the sort, is highly obnoxious and I have lost a great deal of respect for you. Because more people in the argument thought Vader would win hardly makes it true. So pull your head out of your ass and stop posting bullsh*t. You saying that you won the debate does not make it so.

And sadly, maybe you should give credit to others. I did not win the debate, my team did (Kadesh, Subjekt, Jollyjim, Advent, Myself, etc).

I didnt say you won the debate. I gave credit where credit was due in the last thread. So again, dont post bullsh*t. Also I was under the impression Advent was neutral in the debate, which she emphasised several times. Next time, get your facts straight before posting something so blatantly stupid.

1.) How did you know such a thread existed (ESB Luke vs. QGJ) unless you were poor old Sexist....and please, I did give a much better for Luke than QGJ supporters. Luke is close to QGJ, not equal, but close.

2.) Wow, obviously you don't anything. Why don't you read the thread and then comment.

1. Perhaps because you constantly bring it up, mentioning the thread and that you proved that ESB Luke is on par with Qui-Gon about 1,000 times in one week kind of caught my attention.

And Luke is not close. According to Lucas, TPM Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon Jinn and Darth Maul are firmly above OT Vader, Luke Skywalker and Ben in dueling.

2. I did read it, it was quite clear that Rampant Ox was seeing things the correct way, and that you, Kadesh and Subject were relying on superior numbers to make it appear that you were winning the debate.

We are not a bunch of whiny fanboys. You have to prove that. You are using a logical fallacy, Ad Hominem (to the man), insulting the arguer instead of the argument.

Big deal, as if Ad Hominem makes you any lesser a debater.

And I doubt very highly that Advent would have argued that Vader was a superior duelist to Dooku.

Originally posted by Kadesh
[B
Wrong, its OT vader who > ROTS anakin, why? 1) mastery 2) skill and 3) Losing your limbs doesnt mean "less force" it just means less potential, and by the way, anakin cant even kill his wife with his force choke, and he was using hate and anger to power it, Lmao pretty impressive to say that anakin > vader [/B]

Luke < Anakin

Luke > Vader

Therefore...

Vader < Anakin

Although, I am an idiot..

Wait...Theres a disturbance in the force...something like...SOmeone is going to say that Darth Vader let Luke win or etc..

so heres teh Databank!!!

He threatened to turn her to the dark side. At this threat, Luke gave into his hatred and attacked his father. In the ferocious assault that followed, young Skywalker nearly killed Vader.

Originally posted by Noob_Krueger
Luke < Anakin

Luke > Vader

Therefore...

Vader < Anakin

Although, I am an idiot..

[/I]

Its anakin > luke at that time.

But its vader who > anakin.

Anakin couldnt even kill his wife with a force choke, heh thats pretty impressive and he was using rage

Originally posted by Sexyback

And Luke is not close. According to Lucas, TPM Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon Jinn and Darth Maul are firmly above OT Vader, Luke Skywalker and Ben in dueling.

One question have you seen vader in the OT fight a REAL jedi? NO, thats why he looks weak, And there is something called the EU which is C-canon which LFL approves i think. Thats where we see the real darth vader

Originally posted by Kadesh
Its anakin > luke at that time.

But its vader who > anakin.

Anakin couldnt even kill his wife with a force choke, heh thats pretty impressive and he was using rage

Whoa Whoa, hold on there cowboy. Padme would be dead if Obi-Wan hadn't interfered.

What? WTF are you saying right now?

Luke beat Vader

Anakin would beat Luke

Therefore Anakin beats Vader.

Aaaand, Anakin beats Dooku

But Dooku would beat Luke

Therefore Dooku beats Vader.

Originally posted by Noob_Krueger
Whoa Whoa, hold on there cowboy. Padme would be dead if Obi-Wan hadn't interfered.

What? WTF are you saying right now?

Luke beat Vader

Anakin would beat Luke

Therefore Anakin beats Vader.

Aaaand, Anakin beats Dooku

But Dooku would beat Luke

Therefore Dooku beats Vader.

Lets not forget that Padme could still talk while being choked and i imagine she had to take a breath before doing so while vaders victims on the other hand couldnt even talk or say a word, they could even hardly gag.

Wrong, anakin couldnt even kill padme weather or not obi wan interfered, And you are using a>b>c BULLSHIT which doesnt apply any form of logic at this time.

You are going to get your ass handed. Luke beat vader because of luke using vaders form of djem so, that proves how effective and how deadly vaders custamised form is, even on its on practitionar. You seem to forget vader underestimated luke skywalker and thought he could beat him again, Need i point out the emperor ORDERED vader not to kill luke but turn him to the dark side? It was part of the emperors plan for vader to lose ok? Vader was caught off guard according to several sources from lukes sudden burst of anger,

You seem to forget that anakin couldnt do the things vader did, killing someone very quickly when his victim is like what? a long distance away?, You seem to forget that vader rather improved on his skill, mastery and lightsaber combat, and that he could shred metal apart as he demonstrated in the purge and being able to destroy tanks nearly the size of an AT-AT on the battlefield, o? and how bout that he used an entire waterfall to attempt to drown the dark woman which didnt work because the water was SHALLOW.

Need i point out that vader could even use the force to deflect several blasterbolts diverting them away from his body as he demonstrated in Empire comics? Jollyjim gave us the link, it proves vaders mastery of the force and therefore vader > anakin and vader > dooku unless dooku manages to disarm vader then strike him with lightning which would be highly unlikely,

Originally posted by Kadesh
[B]Luke beat vader because of luke using vaders form of djem so, that proves how effective and how deadly vaders custamised form is, even on its on practitionar.

Is there any proof of this? Im not saying your wrong, for this has little to do with the argument at hand - but im just curious as to where you acquired the information.

You seem to forget that anakin couldnt do the things vader did, killing someone very quickly when his victim is like what? a long distance away?, You seem to forget that vader rather improved on his skill, mastery and lightsaber combat, and that he could shred metal apart as he demonstrated in the purge and being able to destroy tanks nearly the size of an AT-AT on the battlefield, o? and how bout that he used an entire waterfall to attempt to drown the dark woman which didnt work because the water was SHALLOW.

Feat Wars my friend. I sincerely hope you are not trying to use any of this to help your Vader>Dooku argument, for it is quite irrelevant (bar perhaps the attempted drowning part).

Jollyjim gave us the link, it proves vaders mastery of the force and therefore vader > anakin and vader > dooku unless dooku manages to disarm vader then strike him with lightning which would be highly unlikely,

I would hardly say that it proved Vader>Dooku in the force. I can hunt down some quotes of my own if you like which would prove that Dooku is at least on par with Vader. And why is Dooku hittig Vader with lightning unlikely? I think, sorry I know, that it would be a very real possibility. Far more likely than your z0mg f0rcE CruSh!!!!!1/ theory. 🙄

Just to point out.

Obi-Wan beat Anakin
Vader beat Obi-Wan

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Is there any proof of this? Im not saying your wrong, for this has little to do with the argument at hand - but im just curious as to where you acquired the information.

Originally posted by Rampant ox

Feat Wars my friend. I sincerely hope you are not trying to use any of this to help your Vader>Dooku argument, for it is quite irrelevant (bar perhaps the attempted drowning part).
.

Originally posted by Rampant ox

I would hardly say that it proved Vader>Dooku in the force. I can hunt down some quotes of my own if you like which would prove that Dooku is at least on par with Vader. And why is Dooku hittig Vader with lightning unlikely? I think, sorry I know, that it would be a very real possibility. Far more likely than your z0mg f0rcE CruSh!!!!!1/ theory. 🙄

Vader might just have the edge with the force, but Dooku is a far better lightsaber duelist. Dooku firmly has this.

Not till i post this quote which jedi academy and shadows of the empire backs it up

Not to forget, its been proven djem so > makashi

Around 3.5 ABY, Vader had ordered ASP-19 droids, lightsaber combat droids based off the ASP-series droid, to be produced to fight him in sparring matches. They were faster and stronger than an ordinary man, and programmed with the knowledge of a hundred sword masters and a dozen fighting styles. Vader defeated them time and again, and thus ordered new, improved batches of them. As his finesse improved, they became too easy to defeat, even in a two-on-one match.

Yes its been ripped from wookie, but why i say its reliable? Because this took place on Vjun where it was stated and shown to us that vader did indeed order these droids, and use them for practise, Source of this = Jedi academy

Since when does the lightsaber form determine the victor? The fact is, Dooku is far more skilled, which counts for far more. And Vader lacks speed, something essential to Djem So.

And those droids aren't force sensitive, of course Vader would be able to defeat them, any decent jedi would. I doubt they'd even be above the level of a magnaguard, and that quote heavily hints that two of them at once was his limit.

Originally posted by Sexyback
Since when does the lightsaber form determine the victor? The fact is, Dooku is far more skilled, which counts for far more. And Vader lacks speed, something essential to Djem So.

And those droids aren't force sensitive, of course Vader would be able to defeat them, any decent jedi would. I doubt they'd even be above the level of a magnaguard.

Ignore the last post. This is the corrected version.

i've ben busy the last couple of days, but rest assured I will reply to all the bullshit i've been seeing.

Originally posted by Sexyback
However ANH gives a clear idea of how he fights when going full out, and his power increase in dueling by ESB wouldn't likely have been too big. But anyways, the point is, ANH makes it clear that he is slow and unagile, so your point that he was holding back in ESB is irrelevant.

Originally posted by Sexyback
That's not the point, my post was only in respect to dueling, and you tackled it in respect to the force. Doesn't quite work.

Originally posted by Sexyback
Yes he did. I seem to recall quite an impressive flip over his head to begin with, he was doing almost as good as Qui-Gon.

Originally posted by Sexyback
My point was, you seem to be implying that Obi-Wan using the darkside is some kind of unfair advantage, well the fact that Vader constantly uses it and he would never be skilled enough to take down Maul should tell you something.

Originally posted by Sexyback
By using my eyes, and listening to Lucas.

Originally posted by Sexyback
Those are some impressive rhymes, you should contact Jay Z and try to get signed.

Originally posted by Sexyback
But choreography displays their actual skills, what don;t you get about this. You can whine all you want about choreography and budget, but it doesn't change the fact that the movies are the highest form of canon.

Originally posted by Sexyback
No, it was some other random padawan.

Originally posted by Sexyback
Yes, they can.
PT duelists = 'real jedi'.
Vader = 'crippled half droid half man'.

Originally posted by Sexyback
Unluckily for you, we don't usually factor luck in a vs. fight.
And it's not that Dooku is only just better, according to Lucas he is leagues better, whereas Anakin and Dooku were pretty close in skill.

Originally posted by Sexyback
Mine was valid, your's is not.

Originally posted by Sexyback
That's if they're clear cut like this one. If I've ever argued against a GL quote, it's because the overall message is ambiguous.

Originally posted by Sexyback
I think I'll stick with Lucas rather than listen to your lame insults.

Originally posted by Sexyback
Different situations. Lightsnake is the only person who has read the article that I demanded a scan from, whereas many people have read PoD and can confirm it.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Just because Vader has seen Dooku perform the lightning hardly means he knows how to effectively counter it. Especially taking into account then nature in which he saw it (Dooku raises his hand a second later he gets blasted by it, not much time to observe details). All Vader has to do to block it anyway is by channeling it into his blade. However, because of Dooku's superior speed and precision, I find it more than reasonable to beleive he will be able to manouvre himself into a position to maximize the lightning and eliminate Vader with it.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Perhaps, but the 8 Jedi you refer to absolutely pwned Vader. Vader [b]would have lost had his precious Stormtroopers not made an appearance. Besides, those Jedi were weak in comparison to the Count. Because Vader could perform the technique then does not mean he can perform it on Dooku now.[/B]

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Has Vader ever used a force crush in a lightsaber duel? Not that I can remember (although please correct me if I'm wrong). However, for some strange reason you think he is going to be able to perform it on Dooku like its some sort of Godly, unstoppable technique. I highly doubt that Vader would be able to crush Dooku, for several reasons. The first, he has never used it in a duelling situation. Secondly, he is up against an esteemed Jedi Master come Sith Lord who is going to be one of the toughest battles Vader has ever experienced. If Vader hasnt used it before in a fighting situation I don't see how he could do it now. Lastly, Dooku is a far faster fighter than Vader. I can hardly see how Vader is going to keep up with the Counts attacks as it is, let alone pulling of a crush as well.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
The ROTS novelisation is bullsh*t in my opinion. I honestly cant see how Anakin could have beaten Dooku so easily, it doesn't make sense when you look at the grand scale of things. Dooku could pwn Kenobi, yet Anakin got his limbs tossed around Mustafar by his blade. Dooku can hold his own against Yoda, and had even beaten Mace, yet people seem to think that Anakin would lose against them. Which would imply a huge power gap between people like Mace and Dooku.

But you cant argue canon. Anakin is leagues above Dooku apparently - but thats hardly to say OT Vader is above Dooku.

Well unfortunately, your opinion doesn't mean much, lol. j/k. And for someone who hates A>B>C arguments, you just used like 3 of them to justify why Dooku shouldn't have been so brutally pwned.

Originally posted by Advent
STFU, you.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
I dont see what point you are trying to make. Vader might be able to sense if dooku is going to use lightning through the force, but it works both ways. Dooku could just as easily sense if Vader is going to choke him, and therefore manouvre himself to an appropritae position to either stop the technique, or counter it.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Feat Wars are irrelevant. You cant say that because Vader and his troops barely survived an onslaught from these 8 Jedi, that Vader will therefore be able to beat Dooku.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
I highly doubt that a battlefield is more risky than a lightsaber duel with a Jedi Master come Sith Lord with 80 years of experience under his belt. Besides, Vader has used crush once. I see absolutely no reason to beleive he is going to use it in a lightsaber duel, for the simple reason he never has. If crush is a s godly and 'instant', as you make it out to be, why didn't Vader kill Sidious with it? According to you it cant be blocked or countered and it is instantaneous - therefore by your logic Vader could have easily overthrown Sidious with it (which he was planning to do anyway, in case you post bullsh*t like "z0mg he wouldnt want to kill Sids!!"😉

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Really, and how do you know he wont? If I recall Dooku has used lightning in a duel before, and besides, he fights with [b]one hand. Therefore he leaves the other hand open for force manouvres.[/B]

Originally posted by Rampant ox
And need I not mention that Vader has used crush [b]once, and that wasnt in a duelling situation. I dont see how you can say that Vader is miracululously going to win the duel with a crush, when there is no evidence to beleive he would even contemplate using it. [/B]

off to a Christmas Party...more to come later.

OK, so he was fighting all out in ANH, yet did much better in ESB, and that makes him slow and unskilled because of what he did in a previous movie? No. And it's hardly irrelevant, thats the point. He did twice as good in ESB and was holding back, so really, what he did in ANH is irrelevant being as ESB came later and shows better skills.

1. How did he show better skills in ESB? He was just as lame in ESB as he was in ANH. And there would be no reason for Vader not to go full out in ANH, don't be ridiculous.

2. With Vader's condition, there really wasn't that much room for improvement, to argue that he would have increased in power by a significant amount in the time between ANH and ESB is ridiculous.

3. Again, these points are irrelevant, as when one holds back from killing someone, they still fight as good as they usually would, they are just less deadly and efficient with their attacks, as they are holding back from killing their opponent. They don't fight any slower or less skilled. So your original argument that we can't judge Vader's skill and speed when he's holding back has been destroyed, try again.

That is very much the point. The two of them aren't going to stand there and dictate what they can and can't do in a fight. Thats fvcking retarded. I'm talking about a full out fight, which is what this thread is about, not just what planet wants.

So you're gonna commit a strawman again, even when you know perfectly well that I will point it out. Nice move! You know very well that I was never dictating how the fight went, I was just speaking purely in respect to dueling, and you tackled one of my points that was purely related to dueling with an explanation in respect to the force. You know what you were doing, and it's illogical.

OMFG...he did a FLIP?!? Holy shit!! Some one get that padawan on the council now! I also remember him getting drop kicked off a catwalk.

But you see, Vader would get pwned right away, he's too slow, Maul would decimate him. TPM Obi-Wan performed far better than Vader could ever hope.

What i'm saying is that w/o the darkside, this JEDI couldn't do shit but get pwned. And if you argue that TPM OB1 is more powerful than Vader, then you're a moron.

In dueling, yes. It's pretty obvious from watching the movies, and Lucas agrees...

The novel even stated that Maul was the superior duelist and he lost, so chalk up another instance of when a duelist was beaten by an inferior opponent. And there is nothing but a few fancy martial arts moves, that indicates that Maul can beat Vader.

Those fancy martial arts moves would overwhelm Vader in seconds.

What, when you see fit? Your eyes cant dictate everything. Whats skillful for one person might not be for another, as in, what might take all of Maul's abilities, might only take a fraction of Vader's.

Anyone who can properly judge swordfighting knows that Maul is superior to Vader, and while I'd usually respect your opinion (as dumb and biased as it is), Lucas disagrees so you are arguing against canon.

First off, I'm not the one whining, I;m saying why its that way, and acknowledged that although its a piss poor excuse, it's canon...so really you're using a technicality for your argument.

Hold up, so if you accept it, then why are you still arguing against it?

OK, and Vader destroyed multiple "real Jedi" during the purges. And it doesn't matter if we haven't seen it yet, because we all know it happened.

These excuses, as imaginative and well thought out they are, really don't mean shit, because you're arguing against canon.

How the hell was Anakin pwning Dooku lucky? PLEASE, provide a direct quote from Lucas where he states, "Dooku is leagues above Vader." , and I'll concede this whole argument. It was said that VADER, not Anakin, would be 80% of Sidious...it never mentioned what Anakin was or what Dooku was in comparison to Sidious, so from that standpoint, Vader is still extremely powerful, if not more than Dooku, which i see you admitted to in a later post.

1. In the Dooku/Anakin fight, imo, Anakin got lucky, but I'm not going to argue it now, as it's irrelevant in the big picture.

2. Dooku is leagues above TPM Kenobi. Vader isn't as good as TPM Kenobi. And so, Dooku is leagues above Vader.

3. Those percentages are only in reference to potential.

4. 'admited'? I never argued that Dooku was stronger with the force, I only ever argued that the degree by which Vader is stronger is not enough to grant him victory through those mean, whereas Dooku is clearly leagues above Vader in dueling, and would win through those means.

Double standard much? You cant choose when to argue with canon. wtf...

I wasn't arguing with canon, I was interpreting it differently. You are actually arguing against canon. Even Advent said that my interpretation was perfectly valid, only the Sidious fanboys disagreed.

Irrelevant. As you are so hell bent on saying, any quote from GL stands and is NOT up for debate, period.

No, it's not irrelevant. Any canon statement that only has one message is not up for debate, any canon statement that has an ambiguous message is, how do you not get this?