Darth Vader(TESB) vs Count Dooku(ROTS)

Originally posted by Gideon
That spells out that TPM Obi-Wan > Vader? Sorry, I'm not seeing it. Is Obi-Wan the "faster" duelist? Of course. That's pretty much the message that I'm getting from it. Lucas could also have been referring to "real Jedi" as in Jedi who dueled on a regular basis, like Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon. Obi-Wan in ANH hadn't dueled in forever, last time I checked. Luke was untrained. Sidious didn't duel. Yoda didn't duel. Vader was a Sith.

Even if this is the case, Vader is more powerful than Obi-Wan. In the Force, it's not even a remote contest. Vader is 80% of RotJ Sidious. Obi-Wan doesn't come close to being a fourth of that figure.

'I was looking for a kind of sword fighting that was reminiscent of what was in the movies that we had already done, but a more energized version of it because we've actually never seen real jedis at work, we've only seen old men and crippled half droid half men and young boys that have learned from these people. So to see a jedi to fight in the Prime of the Jedi, I wanted it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing. Jedi are like negotiators. They aren't people that go out and blow up planets, they aren't people that shoot down things. They're more of a 1 to 1 combat type. So I just want the form of fighting and the role of the jedi knight to be special and more spiritual and more intellectual than just a fighter and superhero or something like that.'

So let's see, he refers to Vader as a 'crippled half droid half man', and the TPM jedi as 'real jedi', in direct respect to dueling. Hmm...

We're doing good on the "not being sarcastic to each other" thing. Don't ruin it.

Again, I'm not arguing that TPM Obi-Wan is the "faster" duelist. What I'm saying is that he is no where near as powerful as Vader is. In an all out fight? Obi-Wan would die. Painfully.

lol, sorry, it wasn't really personal or anything, I had just copied it from another argument and pasted it, I wasn't trying to be a dick or anything.

But I wasn't arguing against that, Vader would likely be able to pwn him with the force, but Obi-Wan would win in a saber fight imo. It's pretty clear from the movies, and it's what I have interpreted from the quote. Maybe it's not so much as 'proven' like I said before, but I think it's very likely.

The Vader Team is now back in business....lets go Kadesh and Subjekt!

Well, my ass got handed...just goes to show I shouldn't be debating...ah who cares. I'm a n00b.

It didn't, Kadesh doesn't know what he's talking about.

Kadesh doesn't know what he's talking about.

LOL look who's talking 😆

Hey Subjekt, I have argued against most of Planet's response. Is this all right, I just thought you might want your Vaderbotha to be at your side.

1. How did he show better skills in ESB? He was just as lame in ESB as he was in ANH. And there would be no reason for Vader not to go full out in ANH, don't be ridiculous.

I have argued with this already. Vader’s response to Kenobi’s fighting skills indicates of the superiority of Vader over Obi-Wan.

In addition, I suggest you should visit Darth Martin’s Lightsaber Gallery in the SW EU Forum and watch Vader vs. ANH Obi-Wan. Then watch Vader vs. ESB Luke. You will see the enlightenment Planet (or I at least hope so). In A New Hope, Kenobi and Vader just bang lightsabers and there was hardly any footwork. In a sword-fighting duel, footwork is essential. In Empire Strikes Back, Vader was moving his feet, fighting one handed, while simultaneously using the Force. This is definitely more impressive than in A New Hope. And note, in Empire Strikes Back, Vader wasn’t even trying against his son. This shows how powerful Darth Vader can truly be.

2. With Vader's condition, there really wasn't that much room for improvement, to argue that he would have increased in power by a significant amount in the time between ANH and ESB is ridiculous.

You are right he never improved. However, in A New Hope and in Empire Strikes Back, he never went all out.

3. Again, these points are irrelevant, as when one holds back from killing someone, they still fight as good as they usually would, they are just less deadly and efficient with their attacks, as they are holding back from killing their opponent. They don't fight any slower or less skilled. So your original argument that we can't judge Vader's skill and speed when he's holding back has been destroyed, try again.

What the fvck is this? Let us say I play wrestle with my friends. Now let’s say I am getting attacked by a thug. When I fight with my friends, I don’t do damaging punches that’ll make their faces bleed, and nor do I fight dirty. If I am fighting someone who’s going to kill my sister, then hell yeah I will go all out and fight dirty and go for the kill. I will fight with definite more skill. Now let’s take a Star Wars example. In AOTC, by your logic, I guess Dooku fought at the same speed with Obi-Wan as he did against Yoda. Nice logic!

So you're gonna commit a strawman again, even when you know perfectly well that I will point it out. Nice move! You know very well that I was never dictating how the fight went, I was just speaking purely in respect to dueling, and you tackled one of my points that was purely related to dueling with an explanation in respect to the force. You know what you were doing, and it's illogical.

Planet, this comes from a person who says Ad Hominem is all right.

But you see, Vader would get pwned right away, he's too slow, Maul would decimate him. TPM Obi-Wan performed far better than Vader could ever hope.

This is the same Vader who in the beginning of the Purge (with just a months experience in the suit) was able to take on 8 Jedi (including skilled Masters like Roblio Darte and Tsui Choi). By TESB, Vader has Jedi-hunting experience and he has mastered the uses of his suit and ends up 80% of Sidious. Maul would have trouble with 8 Jedi. He would have no victory against TESB Vader. I guess if Maul decimates Vader, then by your logic, Maul=Sidious.

Those fancy martial arts moves would overwhelm Vader in seconds.

Uh huh, I’m sure, the same Vader whose power and mastery of the Force is one of the strongest of the Sith.

1. In the Dooku/Anakin fight, imo, Anakin got lucky, but I'm not going to argue it now, as it's irrelevant in the big picture.

Still clinging onto the excuse of Anakin got lucky against Dooku? Move on Planet, it's been proven by several people here (Escape & Advent primarily, Lightsnake, many others, I helped out a bit) that Anakin > Dooku.

2. Dooku is leagues above TPM Kenobi. Vader isn't as good as TPM Kenobi. And so, Dooku is leagues above Vader.

I guess then by your logic, Dooku=Sidious or Dooku > Sidious. Nice job Planet!

3. Those percentages are only in reference to potential.

Vader becomes 80% of Sidious. That's the fact. By TESB, Vader has mastered his suit and perfected his fighting style and the use of the Force.

But you see, Vader would get pwned right away, he's too slow, Maul would decimate him. TPM Obi-Wan performed far better than Vader could ever hope.

Now thats just stupid. Vaders speed has been proved time and time again, he wasn't the slow, clunky droid the OT makes him out to be because EVERY time we see him fight in the OT he's clearly not trying,

Obi Wan v Vader ANH: Vader treats it as a joke barley moves, taunts the faded skills of Obi Wan.

Vader v Luke ESB: Again Vader treats it as a joke, save this time he completely owns his son, is half trying, and actually MOVES, that shows his Obi Wan duel was not taken serious.

Vader v Luke ROTJ: Vader is emotionally conflicted, doesn't want to kill Luke and inadvertently sets him off on a little Dark Side burst.

Now, lets look at Vaders other duels in which he actually demonstrates his skill.

Crimson blade slashing left and right, he parried blaster bolts and amputated limbs and heads. Caterwauling and howling, showing their fangs and waving their lang arms about, the Wookies tried to hold their positions, but they had never faced anything like him, even in the darkest depths of Kashyyyks prevail forest...Vader waded in, his lightsaber cleaving intricately carved war shields, sending blasters and bow casters flying, setting fire to shaggy coats, leaving more than a score of bodies in his wake. ROVD pg 260

This is when Vader single handedly digs out entrenched Wookies and owns them all, deflecting blaster bolts every three seconds while simultaneously hacking their heads off.

"Forte and Kulka were skilled duelists, but Vader was not only faster than Starstone remembered him being on Murkahana against Master Chatak, but also more agile." ROVD pg 262

"Lightsaber grasped in both hands, Vader took a single forward step and performed a lightning fast underhand sweep that almost knocked Forte's lightsaber from Shryne's grip." ROVD pg 272

This here proves Vaders speed again, the infaces on lighting fast by the author also shows his speed.

ANd on Vader vs Maul...you do know Vader BEAT Maul in a Lightsaber duel, and was able to match him in speed until being struck on the helmet after cutting Mauls saber in half. BUt none the less he beat him.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Vadermauls.JPG

And before you go "Thats not canon"

http://blogs.starwars.com/holocron/22/comments

Vaders speed combined with his decimating power one well placed shot is enough to buckled some of the best.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image😄arthVaderbattlestheDarkWoman.JPG

I have argued with this already. Vader’s response to Kenobi’s fighting skills indicates of the superiority of Vader over Obi-Wan.

It was a taunt. Nothing more, nothing less. You're looking too far into it, and it's out of fanboyism.

In addition, I suggest you should visit Darth Martin’s Lightsaber Gallery in the SW EU Forum and watch Vader vs. ANH Obi-Wan. Then watch Vader vs. ESB Luke. You will see the enlightenment Planet (or I at least hope so).

You've already proven that you suck at interpreting swordfighting, your opinion on the matter means jack. And hold up, you're basing your argument off of pictures of the duel? Go figures.

In A New Hope, Kenobi and Vader just bang lightsabers and there was hardly any footwork. In a sword-fighting duel, footwork is essential.

Don't even try and act as if you are in a position to explain swordfighting to me, because you are not.

In Empire Strikes Back, Vader was moving his feet, fighting one handed, while simultaneously using the Force. This is definitely more impressive than in A New Hope.

Clearly, you're not able to understand that it's easier to display more skill against a lesser opponent than it is a stronger one. Again, you're ignorance is astounding.

And note, in Empire Strikes Back, Vader wasn’t even trying against his son. This shows how powerful Darth Vader can truly be.

[sarcasm]Right... The fact that he sucks while not putting in 100% effort shows just how god he can be.[/sarcasm]

What the fvck is this? Let us say I play wrestle with my friends. Now let’s say I am getting attacked by a thug. When I fight with my friends, I don’t do damaging punches that’ll make their faces bleed, and nor do I fight dirty. If I am fighting someone who’s going to kill my sister, then hell yeah I will go all out and fight dirty and go for the kill. I will fight with definite more skill. Now let’s take a Star Wars example. In AOTC, by your logic, I guess Dooku fought at the same speed with Obi-Wan as he did against Yoda. Nice logic!

Terrible analogy. The fact that you'd even compare wrestling (btw, is that naked wrestling, gladiator style?) to swordfighting is hilarious. And your Dooku analogy is plain wrong too, as he was never holding back against Obi-Wan. Here's a proper analogy, let's say you get into a fight with someone, but you don't want to hurt them. It doesn't mean you're going to be fighting slower, blocking slower, making yourself less skilled etc. You would still fight at your best, you just wouldn't deliver any powerful blows that would hurt the guy. It's simple to understand Kenobi, how you don't get it is ludicrous.

Planet, this comes from a person who says Ad Hominem is all right.

All I said was that Ad Hominem doesn't make you any lesser a debater, so pointing it out in a debate just makes you look like a girl. But please Prodigal, don't pretend that you even properly understand these logical fallacies. I remember the days when you used to call them 'illogical fallacies', LOL!

This is the same Vader who in the beginning of the Purge (with just a months experience in the suit) was able to take on 8 Jedi (including skilled Masters like Roblio Darte and Tsui Choi).

This feat has been blown way out of proportion. The only decent jedi there was Tsui Choi, and Vader actually needed the help of his clone troopers at the end to kill him, as well as two other jedi. One of the jedi also actually turned to the darkside and killed one of the other jedi, so Vader's only actually responsible for the death of 4 of them; and they mostly just ran at him in an uncontrolled frenzy without protecting themselves. He also had to use the force for some of his kills, so this feat really doesn't speak much for his dueling skills, not as much as people like to say anyway. And he barely escaped with his life, he struggled badly with a task that really wasn't that hard.

By TESB, Vader has Jedi-hunting experience and he has mastered the uses of his suit

His suit really didn't give that much room for improvement, technically he couldn't improve physically one bit with all his limbs being mechanical.

and ends up 80% of Sidious.

That's his force potential, irrelevant.

Maul would have trouble with 8 Jedi. He would have no victory against TESB Vader. I guess if Maul decimates Vader, then by your logic, Maul=Sidious.

Under the conditions that Vader beat those 8 jedi, so would have Maul, and he would have done it with more grace, and without getting his hand cut off.

Uh huh, I’m sure, the same Vader whose power and mastery of the Force is one of the strongest of the Sith.

Not even close.

Still clinging onto the excuse of Anakin got lucky against Dooku? Move on Planet, it's been proven by several people here (Escape & Advent primarily, Lightsnake, many others, I helped out a bit) that Anakin > Dooku.

1. It hasn't been proven.
2. I've already made it clear that I'm not arguing this.
3. You didn't do shit.

I guess then by your logic, Dooku=Sidious or Dooku > Sidious. Nice job Planet!

The problem here is, you don't understand that the 80% was referring to force potential. In terms of dueling ability, he was likely about 5% of Sidious, or something like that.

Vader becomes 80% of Sidious. That's the fact.

No, it's his potential.

By TESB, Vader has mastered his suit and perfected his fighting style and the use of the Force.

That's great, he still sucks.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Now thats just stupid. Vaders speed has been proved time and time again, he wasn't the slow, clunky droid the OT makes him out to be because EVERY time we see him fight in the OT he's clearly not trying,

Bullshit!! GL has confirmed that he's slow, refer to the 'Prime of the Jedi' video.

Obi Wan v Vader ANH: Vader treats it as a joke barley moves, taunts the faded skills of Obi Wan.

Bullshit. He'd have no reason to hold back, he wanted to really prove that he had overtaken Obi-Wan, he's not going to go easy on him. Just watch the duel, Vader's very forceful with his strokes and you can really see him try to be aggressive.

Vader v Luke ESB: Again Vader treats it as a joke, save this time he completely owns his son, is half trying, and actually MOVES, that shows his Obi Wan duel was not taken serious.

Or that it's easier to display more skill against a lesser opponent. Never thought of that, did you.

Vader v Luke ROTJ: Vader is emotionally conflicted, doesn't want to kill Luke and inadvertently sets him off on a little Dark Side burst.

No argument here, though to address all these points, when you hold back against someone, you don't become less skilled, you fight your best, you just refrain from any killer blows, what's so hard to get about that.

Now, lets look at Vaders other duels in which he actually demonstrates his skill.

Crimson blade slashing left and right, he parried blaster bolts and amputated limbs and heads. Caterwauling and howling, showing their fangs and waving their lang arms about, the Wookies tried to hold their positions, but they had never faced anything like him, even in the darkest depths of Kashyyyks prevail forest...Vader waded in, his lightsaber cleaving intricately carved war shields, sending blasters and bow casters flying, setting fire to shaggy coats, leaving more than a score of bodies in his wake. ROVD pg 260

This is when Vader single handedly digs out entrenched Wookies and owns them all, deflecting blaster bolts every three seconds while simultaneously hacking their heads off.

Every three seconds? Where was that indicated in the passage?
But seriously, he kills a bunch of wookies? Wow!!

"Forte and Kulka were skilled duelists, but Vader was not only faster than Starstone remembered him being on Murkahana against Master Chatak, but also more agile." ROVD pg 262

Those jedi were nobodies, and?

"Lightsaber grasped in both hands, Vader took a single forward step and performed a lightning fast underhand sweep that almost knocked Forte's lightsaber from Shryne's grip." ROVD pg 272

This here proves Vaders speed again, the infaces on lighting fast by the author also shows his speed.

That's great, but it contradicts Lucas, so it's rendered invalid.

ANd on Vader vs Maul...you do know Vader BEAT Maul in a Lightsaber duel, and was able to match him in speed until being struck on the helmet after cutting Mauls saber in half. BUt none the less he beat him.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image:Vadermauls.JPG

And before you go "Thats not canon"

http://blogs.starwars.com/holocron/22/comments

So you're arguing that the Maul we see in that comic must have been as powerful as he was in TPM? Please, we don't know if that was a vision, clone, whatever, we just don't know, and you can't prove that the Maul we see in the comic is at the same level as TPM Maul, so your point is moot.

Vaders speed combined with his decimating power one well placed shot is enough to buckled some of the best.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Image😄arthVaderbattlestheDarkWoman.JPG

Something you need to understand AC, is that you can try as hard as you can, but whenever you find some evidence that Vader wasn't a slow piece of shit, it contradicts higher forms of canon, or Lucas, so it's invalid. I other words, you can't win, so quit trying.

Planet, Advent and I did prove that Anakin is greater and more powerful than Dooku in lightsaber skills by a considerable amount. Once he decided to use his rage as a weapon, he absolutely decimated Dooku's defense and slayed him quite easily.

Force powers? That's a different story.

Bullshit!! GL has confirmed that he's slow, refer to the 'Prime of the Jedi' video.

Or maybe just maybe your a retard who can't interpret things right the, quote is:

"I was looking for a kind of sword fighting that was reminiscent of what was in the movies that we had already done, but a more energized version of it because we've actually never seen real jedis at work, we've only seen old men and crippled half droid half men and young boys that have learned from these people"

"crippled half droid half men"

Who in the hell does that imply that he was slow? Its implies and says what he is, a crippled half man - half machine, something that has been reiterated for the past 20 years, nothing more nothing less.

The actual fighting part of the quote is simply him commenting on how as he put we've never seen "REAL" Jedi fighting, we see Obi Wan an old man, Luke a boy and Vader a Sith. THe "energized" comment really pertains to ANH, since ESB and ROTJ were 'fast" duels, and the point that Im bringing across is: yeah we've never seen real Jedi at work because we've never actually seen Vader TRY in the movies.

Bullshit. He'd have no reason to hold back, he wanted to really prove that he had overtaken Obi-Wan, he's not going to go easy on him. Just watch the duel, Vader's very forceful with his strokes and you can really see him try to be aggressive.

Vader was very force full with his strokes? When is he not, even when he is toying with foes he has you know that involuntary cyborg strength that lends him tremendous power. He is aggressive? You could tell that how? By the look in his eyes? By the strain on his face? 🙄 He could have just as easily been smiling and giving a quiet yawn to himself under his mask.

Or that it's easier to display more skill against a lesser opponent. Never thought of that, did you.

Obviously the POINT flew over your head (as usual) the point was that Vader NEVER took his duels in the OT to a serious degree that he had to truly exert himself in a life or death duel like he did with Maul. The skill of Luke is regardless, reading comprehension...

No argument here, though to address all these points, when you hold back against someone, you don't become less skilled, you fight your best, you just refrain from any killer blows, what's so hard to get about that.

Um what the f*ck are you talking about? Its pretty clear you've never been in an actual fight or even a play fight, as said before, if me and my friends are wrestling around, Im not gonna take him down mount him and start raining blows down on his face tyring to kill him as I would do someone actually trying to kill me. In turn, I become less skilled since Im not fighting to the fullest of my ability.

Hell, have you never wrestled around with a younger sibling and "let" them take you down, is that nor holding back, is that not voluntarily becoming less skilled? But again what can I expect your an idiot and you have no clue what your talking about.

Every three seconds? Where was that indicated in the passage?
But seriously, he kills a bunch of wookies? Wow!!

Admittedly I exaggerated, but really when the body count was described as "scores of bodies" and they where entrenched, with bow casters and blasters, shooting at Vader, what do you think happened. Its by far NO stretch of logic.

Again, you have missed the POINT (you do this alot) the point was they were entrenched, and shooting and Vader singlehandedly up rooted them deflected every shot and decapitated them. SAnd your trying to say he's slow? Thats completely ridicules, if he was slow he'd have been raped when he jumped into the fray.

Those jedi were nobodies, and?

Point? Their actual skill is regardless its the narrators comments on Vaders speed that are the point. And FYI Roan was no random Jedi, he was so skilled he was given an opportunity to be on the council and was noted for his bladework, but again thats regardless.

That's great, but it contradicts Lucas, so it's rendered invalid.

No, it contradict your idiotic baseless assumption.

So you're arguing that the Maul we see in that comic must have been as powerful as he was in TPM? Please, we don't know if that was a vision, clone, whatever, we just don't know, and you can't prove that the Maul we see in the comic is at the same level as TPM Maul, so your point is moot.

The fact that he was able to put Vader in a situation where he was forced to damn near kill himself to kill Maul, speaks VOLUMES for his power. If that wasn't the TPM Maul he was sure as hell stronger then him.

Something you need to understand AC, is that you can try as hard as you can, but whenever you find some evidence that Vader wasn't a slow piece of shit, it contradicts higher forms of canon, or Lucas, so it's invalid. I other words, you can't win, so quit trying.

Something you need to understand rtard, is that YOU =/= LUCAS, YOUR assumption =/= Lucas's words. So enough of trying to take his words out of context and trying to spread mis information as fact. Your wrong, Im right plain and simple. So quit trying, you can't win, especially against me.

Originally posted by Sexyback
Since when does the lightsaber form determine the victor? The fact is, Dooku is far more skilled, which counts for far more. And Vader lacks speed, something essential to Djem So.

And those droids aren't force sensitive, of course Vader would be able to defeat them, any decent jedi would. I doubt they'd even be above the level of a magnaguard, and that quote heavily hints that two of them at once was his limit.

Um no, did you even know that kyle katarn said that those droids on the practise levels of JA luke and Vaders level would be able to kill a jedi knight.

Were you unable to read that how skilful those droids were? Being programed with every single lightsaber form and having the skills of a hundred sword masters and yet vader being able to take them down is is impressive.

Um djem so was part of the reason why dookus makashi was useless, the novel did put dooku could not go strength to strength with djem so and were unable to fully parry its strikes, And believe me vaders djem so far surpassed anakins djem so which defeated dookus makashi.

By the way, makashi is a defensive technique, not offensive

Vaders version of Djem So has far more physical strength than Anakins, but it has nowehre near as much speed. Without the speed Dooku is not going to get overwhelmed like he did in ROTS. Also since when was Makashi a defencive form? I thought it had an even balance of both, the movies depicted Dooku going on the offencive.

Vader has more quotes and EU appearances of being fast than Dooku does...

Both are fast for what you would expect. Vader for being so massive, and Dooku for being 80+ years old.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Vaders version of Djem So has far more physical strength than Anakins, but it has nowehre near as much speed. Without the speed Dooku is not going to get overwhelmed like he did in ROTS. Also since when was Makashi a defencive form? I thought it had an even balance of both, the movies depicted Dooku going on the offencive.

Makashi parries and then strikes. It doesnt soley wait for the opponent to tire out before making its move, however due to its small precise movements the enemy usually tires out first anyway. From Wookie:

It was described as being very elegant, powerful, and requiring extreme precision, allowing the user to attack and defend with minimal effort...

Precise footwork and movements were required for maintaining proper distance from the opponent during defense and/or when moving in for an attack

...to keep in perfect balance as the practitioner attacked and retreated

Just a few quotes extracted from Wookie that prove Makashi attacks just as much as it defends. I dont recall hearing anywhere that Makashi is a defencive form (although I may be wrong). In AOTC we see Dooku go on the offencive against both Anakin and Obi-Wan - he doesnt in ROTS because the opponents are to physically powerful (and there are two of them).

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Makashi parries and then strikes. It doesnt soley wait for the opponent to tire out before making its move, however due to its small precise movements the enemy usually tires out first anyway. From Wookie:

It was described as being very elegant, powerful, and requiring extreme precision, allowing the user to [b]attack and defend with minimal effort...

Precise footwork and movements were required for maintaining proper distance from the opponent during defense and/or when moving in for an attack

...to keep in perfect balance as the practitioner attacked and retreated

[/B]

Thats exactly what i was saying earlier, dooku tires his opponents then he attacks

Originally posted by Kadesh
Thats exactly what i was saying earlier, dooku tires his opponents then he attacks

No, you make it sound like Dooku purposefully makes his opponent tire, and once he has done so moves in for the kill. The Count both attacks and defends throughout the duel, and the opponent tiring is just a bonus that comes with the form. However, because his opponents tire, it can help dramatically in a fight.