Wait a sec... Vader is 80% of ROTJ Sidious? D@mn, he's even more powerful than I was saying. ROTJ Sidious is like 10% or 20% better than his ROTS self. That makes Vader... Let's see...
We'll go with RotS Sids being 15% weaker than RotJ.
I did the math, and Vader, by ROTJ, is 95% of ROTS Sidious. (Srry, forgot to round up the 1st time)
That's pretty d@mn strong.
Probably strong enough to beat the Count... I'd give him 85% of RotS Sids. AT MOST.
What do you mean "your point", you dolt? If you'd have taken the time to read through my post, maybe you would know what the point was. But, instead you chose the route of having your head stuck up your ass.Nice. I expect a retort to go something like "z0mg i r teh pseudo-1ntellect, ad h0minem!!!//ONEELEVEN!!". The point, anyways, as I will explain to you has two parts to it:
1. That his dueling skill isn't on par with Anakin's, which was the opposite of what Kadesh asserted. By his implications in his post and former posts in other threads, Vader is greater than Anakin in dueling skill. That was what I was originally appealing to.
Which leads into...
2. Then I said that in regards to a way to interpret what Lucas said about "true Jedi fighting" in the Original Trilogy, and how it (the answer) would still be correct.
Essentially, the point for simpletons was: it's reason to suspect his skills went down, and that further propels the reason for the answer provided by starwars.com still holding its value.
"Look at Grievous", your point? Oh? None? When I stated Vader was a cyborg, I later elaborated on what handicaps that gives him. Thanks for [not] reading, though.
In addition to that, I was roughly mirroring George Lucas' words by titling him as such, which is quite a step up from how he actually phrases it: "a crippled half droid, half man".
You posted this Advent:
Vader is a cyborg, who is horribly slow and because of such has had his dueling skill deteriorate.
The cyborg part is totally unecessary. You said Vader is a cyborg and he is horribly slow and has had his dueling skills deteriorate. This gives the general feeling that because Vader is a cyborg, he might be slow and such. I'm just saying that being a cyborg isn't bad since if you look at Grievous, he does pretty well against Jedi and he is a cyborg.
You should also note that he only eliminates four by himself, and they don't all attack him in conjuncture. He also got: his arm lopped off, half of his mask shredded, pummeled with scraps, nearly beaten to death. Do you have any proof any of those Jedi were anything above Zett Jukassa's skill (save for Tsui Choi, who only attacked with a blade once, IIRC)?Wait. Don't answer, seeing as you'd be wasting more of my time since all of that is irrelevant to what my original point was.
Include the fact that he is been in the suit for like what, a month or so? TESB Vader has been in the suit for twenty and is used to fighting in it. And now you are questioning me and then taking it back, make up your mind. He took on 8 Jedi even though he just got himself in a black suit. Taking 8 Jedi on is impressive itself, taking them on with limited experience is even more impressive.
Jedi on Kessel:
Sia-Lan Wezz: Jedi Knight. Average Level.
Koffi Arana: Jedi Master. Slightly above the average knight.
Jastus Farr: Double-bladed lightsaber user. Average Level.
Ma'Kis: Jedi Master. Fought the Bok Tsyr. Slightly above average.
Bultar Swan: Pretty good knight. Personal apprentice of Plo Koon.
Tsui Choi: Jedi Master. Above Average Jedi.
Roblio Darte: Jedi Master. Above Average Jedi. Survived Battle of Parcelus Minor.
Shadday Potkin: Jedi Master. Slightly above Average.
Please Advent, all of these knights are at the bare minimum at Zukasa’s level. Some are Masters and are really good. Vader took on 8 Jedi, that’s impressive.
I really hope you're not calling me a "Dooku fanboy", because that would be incorrect on two separate levels. Three, actually, but I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you're not including me (even though you gave no fancy title to "Dooku fanboys"😉.In any case, calling someone a "fanboy" doesn't help your arguments whatsoever. In these cases, it only makes you look like an idiot given that the opposition would be quite justified in labelling you a fanboy.
I specifically addressed Dooku fanboys. I know for sure that you are not one. You have guessed correctly.
Originally posted by General Kenobl
You posted this Advent
Oh, I did? Well, congratulations Detective Dipshit for sleuthing up the obvious.
The cyborg part is totally unecessary.
No, it wasn't. You're regarding my statement as me generalizing about cyborgs (that's actually exactly what you're doing), that's far from the actual case, and you're simply arguing semantics.
You said Vader is a cyborg and he is horribly slow and has had his dueling skills deteriorate.
Polly want a cracker?
This gives the general feeling that because Vader is a cyborg, he might be slow and such.
Actually, it's due to Vader being a cyborg that he is slow, and if you noticed immediately after I described what type of cyborg (in this case, a "horribly slow" one), and then stated that his skills would severely be reduced because of that handicap.
I'm just saying that being a cyborg isn't bad since if you look at Grievous, he does pretty well against Jedi and he is a cyborg.
Except General Grievous isn't "a cyborg, who is horribly slow". General Grievous is a cyborg, who is extremely fast. Oops, I did it again!
Realistically speaking, though, you misinterpreted my statement and are basically just quibbling at semantics; causing me to rebut yet another pile of crap for no reason other than to just argue.
As for the rest, are you incapable of reading?
Originally posted by Advent
Wait. Don't answer, seeing as you'd be wasting more of my time since all of that is irrelevant to what my original point was.
All that was well and dandy (and unsupported), but it's irrelevant to my (main) argument. Thanks for wasting about 20 seconds more of my valuable time.
Vader isn't that slow...
He showed lots of finesse in his ESB duel.
In RODV:
Vader carved through 20+ (not sure on numbers, sorry, I don't have the book with me right now, please correct me if I'm wrong) wookiees quickly.
It commented on how his agility and speed had increased from when he first got the suit.
He toyed with a pair of Jedi Knights who had lots of clone wars experience and worked well together.
Kept up with and beat a Jedi Master.
Also, there's Kadeesh's (Or whatever the **** his name is) favorite quote involving some combat droids.
Also, in Crimson Empire, his agility was amazing.
Anyway, strength is more important than speed with Vaders form, and it would seem his increase in strength was more significant than his loss in speed.
Anyway, Godzilla, try to condense your posts into one instead of five in a row, but, basically, your scenario seems accurate to me. Vader, knowing that he needs to bash Dooku into the ground, will proceed to do so, and, being a smart fighter and knowledgeable of Dooku, will be weary of that lightning.
Vader for the win, although, it's not an easy one, by any means. Dooku won't go down to anyone short of an instakill or Skywalker character easily.
My whole thing is that we don't see Vader in his prime form in ESB. I mean he was toying with Luke, and not trying to kill him, so why would he need to move as fast as he could? But as i said before, when luke actually surprised him with that shoulder tap, it took him about 10 seconds to cut his hand off. So we cant judge his total ability by him not being tested. I guess the flip side of that would be, we don't know how good he actually is either. Also, speed isn't everything, nor is strength, so if you want to factor out Vader's strength, you have to dismiss Dooku's speed, whether it's part of the form or not.
The only feat that Dooku can do that really affect Vader is lightning, which Vader can block with his saber. Collectively, we've seen it blocked more than we've seen it be effective, so given that factor and Vader's skill level, it's more than safe to assume that Vader could in fact block it no problem. I personally, have never seen a choke blocked or disrupted, so we cant say that Dooku can automatically break the hold. If that were the case, wouldn't OB1 have broken it when Ani did it to Padme? And don't give me that shit, "oh well it wasn't on him so he couldn't" cause that doesnt make sense (just getting it out there). I'm inclined to say that Dooku was more powerful during AOTC rather than ROTS, unless someone can prove otherwise, then I'll concede that point.
Vader has grown in power, and become accustomed to his suit by ESB, and knows how he has to move and work his body to be effective in a duel. Also, he's fought Dooku before and knows how he fights, while Vader had to modify his form and stylings from his full human counterpart, and has become much more confident and in control of the force, and can control his emotions. I don't think Dooku could rattle Vader's cage as he did with Anakin.
I'd say Vader would win, but for the sake of arguing with the Dooku people in here, I'll give Dooku a 30% success rate, so Vader 70 - 30.
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
My whole thing is that we don't see Vader in his prime form in ESB.
Really? So when was Vader in his prime? Back in RODV, or is it not until ROTJ that he reaches his prime? ESB Vader is the most advanced and skillful version of Vader (during his time in the suit - bar perhaps ROTJ, but I doubt his power increased at all between the two movies). Yet he still got his arm hacked at by an untrained, scared farmboy. It doesnt matter if Vader wasnt giving his all, Luke still managed to outmanouvre Vader and get a hit in. Now my point is, if the likes of Luke can get even a single hit in, how the hell is Vader going to fare against the Count?
I mean he was toying with Luke, and not trying to kill him, so why would he need to move as fast as he could? But as i said before, when luke actually surprised him with that shoulder tap, it took him about 10 seconds to cut his hand off.
I dont see what point you are making. Removing Luke's arm is hardly a godly feat. Im willing to bet a large chunk of the PT Jedi would be able to do the same, more to the point, Dooku would easily be able to do the same. So if beating ESB Luke is the best you can come up with, im afraid that Dooku is going to pwn Vader into next week.
So we cant judge his total ability by him not being tested. I guess the flip side of that would be, we don't know how good he actually is either. Also, speed isn't everything, nor is strength, so if you want to factor out Vader's strength, you have to dismiss Dooku's speed, whether it's part of the form or not.
Why? Vader is far stronger than Dooku. Im openly willing to admit that. However Vader would not be able to keep up with Dooku's fast and precise movements, therefore would not be able to go on the offencive and utilise his strength. And dont spew bullsh*t about Vaders armour blocking Dooku's attacks. Makashi may not be the strongest physical form, but im sure it is more than substantial to kill Vader. We saw how easily it cut off Anakins arm in AOTC, and how it was able to block both Anakins and Obi-Wans strikes simultaneously in ROTS.
Vader has grown in power, and become accustomed to his suit by ESB, and knows how he has to move and work his body to be effective in a duel. Also, he's fought Dooku before and knows how he fights, while Vader had to modify his form and stylings from his full human counterpart, and has become much more confident and in control of the force, and can control his emotions. I don't think Dooku could rattle Vader's cage as he did with Anakin.
Hmmmm. I see what your sayng. I doubt Dooku's Dun Moch would work on Vader like it did on Anakin, however, the same thing applies for Vader. Dooku is not the type to be easily frightened by words (after all he is a politician). Also Vader uses a modified style of Makashi and Djem So does he not? (Please correct me if im wrong). Therefore Vaders style of fighting will be nothing new to Dooku, who is the undisputed master of Makashi. He also has knowledge of Djem So from being the temples BM, and commenting on Anakins skill with the form.
I'd say Vader would win, but for the sake of arguing with the Dooku people in here, I'll give Dooku a 30% success rate, so Vader 70 - 30.
HELL NO Dooku might win 6/10 times. It depends how the battle pans out - they both have various things going for them. But I simply cant see how someone as slow as Vader can compare to Dooku - who was able to go toe to toe with the likes of Yoda.
EDIT: Sorry, I missed out a paragraph of your argument. Ill get to it later if I have time.
My point is, however, that Dooku will be able to eventually get a strike in on Vader. Saying that he wouldn't is bull. HOWEVER, saying that Vader wouldn't have the chance to swing at Dooku would be bull, as well. Vader could take several light blows from Dooku before going down. Dooku could only take one. And, not to mention, it was Anakin's strength that won the ROTS fight. According to the novelization, speed did nothing for Dooku against Anakin's smashing blows. Vader's stronger. Just thought I'd point it out.
Stubborn rampant
Originally posted by Rampant oxLol you do know luke was using vaders version of djem so right? That it proved how deadly and efficent it is even against its on practionar, Obviously he learned ataru from yoda and mergedit with djem so as vader did. And need i not say makashi are weak blows which vaders armour can block easily?
Really? So when was Vader in his prime? Back in RODV, or is it not until ROTJ that he reaches his prime? ESB Vader is the most advanced and skillful version of Vader (during his time in the suit - bar perhaps ROTJ, but I doubt his power increased at all between the two movies). Yet he still got his arm hacked at by an untrained, scared farmboy. It doesnt matter if Vader wasnt giving his all, Luke still managed to outmanouvre Vader and get a hit in. Now my point is, if the likes of Luke can get even a single hit in, how the hell is Vader going to fare against the Count?
Originally posted by Rampant oxLol, it demonstrates vaders mastery of cho mai, a technique which hacks of limbs of an opponent, Rampant, WHEN have you seen vader actually fightning a REAL jedi in the movies? never, We see his real fightning skills in the EU
I dont see what point you are making. Removing Luke's arm is hardly a godly feat. Im willing to bet a large chunk of the PT Jedi would be able to do the same, more to the point, Dooku would easily be able to do the same. So if beating ESB Luke is the best you can come up with, im afraid that Dooku is going to pwn Vader into next week.
Originally posted by Rampant oxUm dooku cant simpy "dodge" the attack right? Since this is a duel wouldnt he have to block it? And when he blocks, he would get beaten down due to 2 things 1) saber form 2) strength
Why? Vader is far stronger than Dooku. Im openly willing to admit that. However Vader would not be able to keep up with Dooku's fast and precise movements, therefore would not be able to go on the offencive and utilise his strength. And dont spew bullsh*t about Vaders armour blocking Dooku's attacks. Makashi may not be the strongest physical form, but im sure it is more than substantial to kill Vader. We saw how easily it cut off Anakins arm in AOTC, and how it was able to block both Anakins and Obi-Wans strikes simultaneously in ROTS.
Originally posted by Rampant oxBut would dooku know how vader fights this time? Would dooku know about vaders custamised form? i dont think so, And dooku would think anakin got crippled...
Hmmmm. I see what your sayng. I doubt Dooku's Dun Moch would work on Vader like it did on Anakin, however, the same thing applies for Vader. Dooku is not the type to be easily frightened by words (after all he is a politician). Also Vader uses a modified style of Makashi and Djem So does he not? (Please correct me if im wrong). Therefore Vaders style of fighting will be nothing new to Dooku, who is the undisputed master of Makashi. He also has knowledge of Djem So from being the temples BM, and commenting on Anakins skill with the form.
Originally posted by Rampant oxVader had the guts to go toe to toe with 8 jedi masters and pwn 4 of them, and also being able to carve through an entire army of wookies as RODV explained and still take on a 2 on 1 match in a saber duel to the death and killed 2 of them swiftly, Didnt some one mention that vader pulled a tree which was rooted to the ground and used it against roan shryne?
[b]HELL NO Dooku might win 6/10 times. It depends how the battle pans out - they both have various things going for them. But I simply cant see how someone as slow as Vader can compare to Dooku - who was able to go toe to toe with the likes of Yoda.
[/B]
Im ralking about the one in RODV, and btw vader even used a waterfall to attempt to drown the dark woman, too bad the water is shallow of she would have died, And have you ever seen vader go mad and snap before? A sudden burst of anger from vader during that fight caught the woman off guard.
Imagine what happens if vader goes ape shit
Originally posted by Kadesh
Imagine what happens if vader goes ape shit
He would make a stupid mistake and Dooku would capitalise on it - beating Vader faster than he normally would.
About that tree you refer to. Vader is hardly going to uproot a tree and throw it at Dooku in the middle of their duel. Thats like me saying Dooku is going to pic up and biff a steel balcony in the middle of their fight. Its simply not going to happen against such a skilled opponent.
Ill get to the rest of your points later.
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Really? So when was Vader in his prime? Back in RODV, or is it not until ROTJ that he reaches his prime? ESB Vader is the most advanced and skillful version of Vader (during his time in the suit - bar perhaps ROTJ, but I doubt his power increased at all between the two movies). Yet he still got his arm hacked at by an untrained, scared farmboy. It doesn't matter if Vader wasnt giving his all, Luke still managed to outmanouvre Vader and get a hit in. Now my point is, if the likes of Luke can get even a single hit in, how the hell is Vader going to fare against the Count?
OK, almost you're entire post is based off you misreading or misunderstanding my point, so allow me to restate my claim.
I'm not saying anything about his overall prime. I'm saying that out of his abilities as of ESB, he never displays his full range. Do you get what I'm saying? He doesn't use his full potential more or less. As far as being untrained (Luke that is), i still think that's up for debate. Yoda said, "Already know that which you need." or something like that when referring to Luke's skill level as a Jedi. Then goes to say he will be a full fledged Jedi once he confronts (not beats) Vader. As we all know he did beat Vader, which makes me think his skill level is higher than we give credit for. As far as if Luke gets a hit in when Vader's not trying, vs going all out on Dooku...i think that question answers itself. He wasn't trying against Luke, and would be against the Count. If Vader put forth HALF the effort he would be forced to with Dooku, against Luke, Luke would be a dead little boy, and quickly.
Originally posted by Rampant ox
I dont see what point you are making. Removing Luke's arm is hardly a godly feat. Im willing to bet a large chunk of the PT Jedi would be able to do the same, more to the point, Dooku would easily be able to do the same. So if beating ESB Luke is the best you can come up with, im afraid that Dooku is going to pwn Vader into next week.
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Why? Vader is far stronger than Dooku. Im openly willing to admit that. However Vader would not be able to keep up with Dooku's fast and precise movements, therefore would not be able to go on the offencive and utilise his strength. And dont spew bullsh*t about Vaders armour blocking Dooku's attacks. Makashi may not be the strongest physical form, but im sure it is more than substantial to kill Vader. We saw how easily it cut off Anakins arm in AOTC, and how it was able to block both Anakins and Obi-Wans strikes simultaneously in ROTS.
Well that was more for Advent. She mentioned something similar to that earlier. You say Vader couldn't keep up because Dooku's speed could shut him down right? Well by the same logic, how can Dooku get his speed and momentum up with extremely strong blows raining down on him? it's a two way door here, Ox. A padawan Anakin's arm, as well as that feat, is nowhere close to Vader, his armor and skill level. Again, by the same token, we saw how Anakin's physical strength allowed him to cut off BOTH of Dooku's hands and his head. Point moot. As far as blocking both of their blows in ROTS, i believe you yourself acknowledged that neither Anakin, nor OB1 were using their respective mastered forms, so again, point moot. Sure it makes Makashi look good, but doesn't help against Djem so.
Originally posted by Rampant ox
Hmmmm. I see what your sayng. I doubt Dooku's Dun Moch would work on Vader like it did on Anakin, however, the same thing applies for Vader. Dooku is not the type to be easily frightened by words (after all he is a politician). Also Vader uses a modified style of Makashi and Djem So does he not? (Please correct me if im wrong). Therefore Vaders style of fighting will be nothing new to Dooku, who is the undisputed master of Makashi. He also has knowledge of Djem So from being the temples BM, and commenting on Anakins skill with the form.
I find a few thing wrong with your post. Firstly, Dooku was not a "politician", he was a political idealist. He agreed with certain ideals, but did nothing himself in a government setting. You might be saying, "oh big deal, what difference does that make?" But it shows your lack of attention to detail and distortion of the truth and facts.
No, to the best of my knowledge vader did not apply Makashi into his customized form, as his armor and lack of mobility, as you love to point out, would prevent him from doing so. Also, he wouldn't quite have the "speed" for that form either, would he? Hmmm, don't think so. And yes, if Vader;s style is customized, meaning he's the only one to have it being as HE customized/created it, then no, Dooku would not know what he was up against. Knowing aspects of all the forms in no way means that you know how to fight against/defend against a customized style.
Originally posted by Rampant ox
[b]HELL NO Dooku might win 6/10 times. It depends how the battle pans out - they both have various things going for them. But I simply cant see how someone as slow as Vader can compare to Dooku - who was able to go toe to toe with the likes of Yoda.EDIT: Sorry, I missed out a paragraph of your argument. Ill get to it later if I have time. [/B]
You're using an A>B>C argument. Just because Dooku was able to shortly contend with is former MASTER, before fleeing, is in no way indicative that he can automatically wipe the floor with Vader's ass. We have no idea how Vader would contend with Yoda, we can speculate, but don't know either way. So that really has no bearing whatsoever. Even in real life, if you fight someone fast, you fight them differently than you would fight someone slow. For instance, Buster Douglas was alot slower than Tyson, yet look what happened. Holyfield is slower than Tyson...again, look what happened. I know boxing isn't sword fighting, but speed is speed. Dooku relies on speed, accuracy, and balance to effectively utilize his form...if he goes in for a thrust, especially after a parry, and Vader throws a clubbing blow, it would throw off his balance and therefore give vader an advantage, if even a temporary one. I think that would be enough for someone of Vader's skill and prowess to capitalize on.
Whenever you get a chance for the other paragraph, ill be waiting. But now, it's off to bed, night all.