Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
No, i didn't mean that in an argumentative manner, just getting it out of the way in case you were rooting for Dooku, and in case I noted Vader's strength as a decided factor. Just showing I acknowledge both sides of that argument.That doesn't prove that TPM OB1 can beat Vader, to assume so is ridiculous.
OK, provide a quote and an audio clip or scan, since you're so big on that kind of shit.
I agree...
Ox something i forgot to mention earlier... As powerful as Dooku was, Anakin just pwned him like nobody's business, correct? Which would mean in order to pwn someone so powerful, he would already be leagues above him, so even if he did lose his potential, it would be feasible that he would have been lowered to Dooku's level.
To argue that Anakin is leagues above Dooku is preposterous.
Which actually brings up another point. When Vader was beaten on Mustafar, it never said he weakened, it said his potential was severely decreased.
His connection suffered heavily due to the midichlorians he lost, which would affect his current ability as well as full potential.
Originally posted by Sexyback
In a saber duel, according to Lucas, yes. And I don't see what's wrong with that, TPM Obi-Wan held his own against Maul, Maul would decimate Vader.It's here, I would provide a quote but the vids not working on the pc I am on for some reason, it's a short video anyway, it won't take up too much of your time.
How the hell could you even entertain the thought that maul would "decimate" Vader? THAT'S whats preposterous. TPM OB1 utilized the darkside to contend with Maul, otherwise Maul would have pwned him. By that logic, QGJ would pwn Vader, Serra Keto, basically anyone with a lightsaber in the PT would pwn Vader....thats idiotic. You're twisting a quote to fit your argument, and it doesn't work that way. No one, especially GL, has ever said that a PT Jedi/Sith can automatically defeat an OT Jedi/Sith.
And yes, Vader beat that Maul, but no one knows what it was. It could have been twice the Maul we saw, it could have half the Maul we saw. Nothing's been released as far as how powerful it was. So that argument is irrelevant, either for or against Vader.
A few quick things about Vader losing to Luke:
1) Lukes victory is a showing of Lukes power, not the lack of Vaders.
2) Vader has a lot of powerful feats, mostly in EU, to say otherwise is crazy. One failing shouldn't be all that you look at while trying to evaluate the fight.
3) There is actually a lot of evidence pointing to Luke being really powerful.
4) Spider-Man has beaten Firelord...(Tell me if you don't understand the reference and/or significance)
Jollyjim is correct.
Luke is quite powerful, and shouldn't be underminded just because he is a Padawan. Since Luke is close to Qui-Gon Jinn (a lot of evidence shows this, there was a thread on it), there is also the fact that Vader might have been toying with Luke and just trying to flaunt the powers of the Dark Side. When Luke did hit him, it took Vader seconds to disarm Skywalker, indicating Vader's powers.
Originally posted by Mider999
on wookiepedia it says the maul fight was indeed canon he had to stab himself in order to beat maul, but i may be wrong about it being canon but if it is well dooku is probably a better fighter then maul since he owned obi wan in seconds when maul had a harder time.
We don't know how strong Maul was there. It could have been a less powerful version, or a more powerful version. That fight can't be used either way here.
Originally posted by Advent
So, because of such, it is irrelevant to bring it up as you cannot compare their power. For all we know, it was a slower version of Maul. For all we know, it was a weaker version of Maul. Of course, that doesn't leave out alternative guesses, but it's inconclusive, and you cannot compare his speed in the comic to the movie. It's really quite irrelevant to even bring it up.
Wow, that's the third time it's been repeated in a single thread in a single evening. Good going, l2processandreviewinformationohandread.
The argument you were promised Subjekt...
Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
[B]The only feat that Dooku can do that really affect Vader is lightning, which Vader can block with his saber.
What the hell do you mean 'the only feat'? Lightning is by far going to be the most effective move Dooku could implement on Vader, however thats not the limit of Dooku's force arsenal. He still has moves like force choke, which we saw performed on Obi-Wan in ROTS to a rather high degree.
Collectively, we've seen it blocked more than we've seen it be effective, so given that factor and Vader's skill level, it's more than safe to assume that Vader could in fact block it no problem.
Lets look at the movies. Dooku wtf pwns Anakin with a quick and easy burst of lightning. True, Obi-Wan does block the lightning when it is sent at him. Although to me the lightning looks very weak and was there more to intimidate Kenobi as oppose to eliminate him. Then there is Sidious' lightning which wtf pwned Mace Windu, Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader. So no, I hardly see how Vader is going to block the lightning with 'no problem' as you put it.
I personally, have never seen a choke blocked or disrupted, so we cant say that Dooku can automatically break the hold.
Fair enough. But lets look at the properties of a choke. The user attempts to kill/K.O the opponent by choking them out. In theory, if Dooku can break Vaders concentration, it will break the hold. I dont doubt that if Vader continuously performed the manouvre it would beat win him the battle, but I hardly see him whipping out a force choke every 10 seconds - especially against a much faster opponent.
If that were the case, wouldn't OB1 have broken it when Ani did it to Padme? And don't give me that shit, "oh well it wasn't on him so he couldn't" cause that doesnt make sense (just getting it out there). I'm inclined to say that Dooku was more powerful during AOTC rather than ROTS, unless someone can prove otherwise, then I'll concede that point.
I dont see what point you are trying to make. I dont see why Dooku wouldnt be as strong, if not stronger in ROTS than in AOTC. After all, he did have his array of Dark Acolytes to train and what not.
How the hell could you even entertain the thought that maul would "decimate" Vader?
By watching TPM, and then watching the OT. Maul is far more skilled, and his speed and agility would likely overwhelm Vader in seconds.
THAT'S whats preposterous. TPM OB1 utilized the darkside to contend with Maul, otherwise Maul would have pwned him.
He still kept up with him before using the darkside, Vader wouldn't be able to do shit to Maul.
By that logic, QGJ would pwn Vader,
And I would agree with that.
Serra Keto, basically anyone with a lightsaber in the PT would pwn Vader....thats idiotic.
No, that's not what I'm saying Mr. Strawman, all I'm saying is that by GL's own admission, anybody in the PT movies who we actually properly see fight is a better duelist than Vader, we don't ever see Serra Keto properly fight, that wasn't my argument.
You're twisting a quote to fit your argument, and it doesn't work that way. No one, especially GL, has ever said that a PT Jedi/Sith can automatically defeat an OT Jedi/Sith.
I'm not twisting shit. You are
(a) Misconstruing my argument.
(b) Arguing against canon.
Gl makes it clear that the duels we see in the PT are much faster and better, and that the OT duelists are clearly lacking in skills in comparison to the PT duelists. And that's really not that hard to believe Subject, you're just being a fanboy if you disagree, and arguing against canon.
So I'm sorry, but you have lost. Dooku is a better duelist than Vader, much better. It's a fact.
And just so you know, choke can be blocked, refer to PoD.
Originally posted by Rampant oxYou do know vader has a lightsaber right? to block his lightning which a weak AOTC obi wan could do with no problem, Did you forget vader has far more powers than dooku? grip? crush? wave? as he demonstrated in the EU. And dooku choking obi wan in ROTS big deal, couldnt kill him, while vader choked some one from a ver far distance apart
What the hell do you mean 'the only feat'? Lightning is by far going to be the most effective move Dooku could implement on Vader, however thats not the limit of Dooku's force arsenal. He still has moves like force choke, which we saw performed on Obi-Wan in ROTS to a rather high degree.
Originally posted by Rampant oxUm dooku was trying to kill obi wan, he did the lightning to the same degree as he did to yoda, Dont have to lie ox. And obiwan blocked the lightsaber nice and easy
Lets look at the movies. Dooku wtf pwns Anakin with a quick and easy burst of lightning. True, Obi-Wan does block the lightning when it is sent at him. Although to me the lightning looks very weak and was there more to intimidate Kenobi as oppose to eliminate him. Then there is Sidious' lightning which wtf pwned Mace Windu, Luke Skywalker and Darth Vader. So no, I hardly see how Vader is going to block the lightning with 'no problem' as you put it..
Originally posted by Rampant oxChoke wouldnt kill a force user that easily so why bother to use it? Vader could take grip to a much higher degree called crush, which is around your entire body pushing to its centre of point, There is no evidence that dooku has a defence to this technique, other that the force shield luke demonstrated in DE.
Fair enough. But lets look at the properties of a choke. The user attempts to kill/K.O the opponent by choking them out. In theory, if Dooku can break Vaders concentration, it will break the hold. I dont doubt that if Vader continuously performed the manouvre it would beat win him the battle, but I hardly see him whipping out a force choke every 10 seconds - especially against a much faster opponent.
Originally posted by Rampant oxAnd i dont get why people think vader is weaker than anakin, even 20 years after ROTS
I dont see what point you are trying to make. I dont see why Dooku wouldnt be as strong, if not stronger in ROTS than in AOTC. After all, he did have his array of Dark Acolytes to train and what not.
Kadesh, Dooku was merely giving Obi-Wan a demonstration; the way he says, "As you can see, my jedi powers are far beyond your's. Now please, back down!" makes that clear, it's pretty clear he wasn't trying to kill him with that one strand of lightning. I mean, if he really was, why only use one handed lightning when he has displayed the ability to summon it with both hands in the EU.