Blind Spider-man vs Daredevil

Originally posted by Alfheim
So if you dont know exactly how it works you dont know if its not enhanced senses. Yes I know what you're going to say.

Because there has been nothing to back up this claim that its based on enhanced senses.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Maybe I did not make myself clear. The enhanced senses do not have to come from the five senses. As far as im concerned it could be energy from the brain but its not pre-cog in the sense that it enables him to see the future.

When you say enhanced senses I assume you mean from the senses he already has just on a higher level. Clarify

Originally posted by Alfheim
The healing factor and the skeleton make him durable. Wolverines are known for their toughness.....do the math.

And Spider-Man can still climb walls and spin webs like spiders can. Math done

Originally posted by Alfheim
I already made this point. You are missing the point I have already told you that not everything will come from the creature they are based on, but when you have a character that has similar attributes to the avatar he is based on common sense dictates that the inspiration came from the creature.

But the inspiration didn't come from that spider with 'enhanced senses' that you used earlier. As Sparkz pointed out it came from Stan Lee wanting a hero that could essentially know everything that was happening at once and be alerted to danger before it took place. He called it a spider-sense and its never been fully explained. The mystical aspects have only recently been given but throughout its creation its been a sixth sense that forewarns him of danger ie. pre-cognition

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes but when have you ever seen GG and Mysterio use magic against his senses. Werewolves and vampyres are usually killed by people with occult knowldege eventhough science can be used. If Spiderman was really a supernatrual being he would fight more superntaural opponents. Blade is usually in his own part of the MU, yes it does have scientfic aspects but is mostly supernatural.

If you have issue with it take it up with the writer. I didn't write the comics, I'm only explaining it to you as I interpret it. Any qualms you have with that are not with me

Originally posted by Alfheim
Maybe I did not make myself clear. If no explanation was given for DD's senses people would think its pre-cog. There is no explanation given to Spidermans senses therefore we have to look at the facts to see wether it pre-cog or senses.

But the fact is that there is an explanation for Daredevil's senses and we can see he doesn't have pre-cognition. Spider-Man may not have ever fully explained his spider-sense but what we do know is that if there's a threat he senses it beforehand. That in and of itself is pre-cognition

Originally posted by Alfheim
What like the time you said that DD does not have ESP. You rudely told me to read and intepret the link but later on we find out that according to [B]your link that DD has ESP. I was pretty pissed off about that but I didnt say anything, so you better calm down. [/B]

I never meant to be rude so I'm sorry if I came off that way. What you did was take my explanation of ESP which I took to meant pre-cognition and looked at some of the broader aspects of it to find a kind which matches Daredevil. So I admit, in terms of sensing auras Daredevil does have ESP, but to delve deeper he doesn't have precognitis (a type of ESP) that allows someone to predict the future without using any sort of deductive reasoning.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes but you dont know how it works therefore you cannot rule out the impossibility of it being enhanced senses. As I said before it does not have to be one of the five senses.

Clarify what you mean by enhanced senses. When you say enhanced senses I think of Daredevil. We already know that while both of their senses allow them to avoid danger that Peter's is instinctive while Matt's require him to process information he recieves. The fact that Peter doesn't require input in order to percieve danger rules out enhanced sensesin my book

Originally posted by marvelprince
Doesn't matter if he's able to discern exactly what the threat is. As long as he's aware that there is a threat then he has pre-cog

Actually the fact that he doesn't recieve an early warning means that its not pre-cog. Daredevil only knows to react because he can read the opponents movements. I can look at a person with jittering and guess that they're getting ready to walk away or waiting to move. If they do move it doesn't mean I'm now a psychic, it just means I know what to look for.

In the same way, through the combination of daredevils touch, and hearing, he can discern things that a human being is absolutely incapable of doing. Daredevil cannot be beaten in poker due to this as well, this fact alone solidifies that he has Pre-cognition becuase thier is no human on earth that can determine with absolute certianty if someone is bluffing or not, as they have no extra-sensual means of doing so.

No I dont. Spider-Man recieves a warning but Daredevil interprets warnings through sensory input. Of course what Daredevil does is "un-extra-sensual). He uses his senses to discern things. Just because his senses are not in the scope of normal sense doesn't mean anything. He uses his senses (however heightened they may be) therefore he doesn't have ESP

pre·cog·ni·tion - knowledge of a future event or situation, esp. through extrasensory means.

now notice in this definition, extrasensory is not a prerequiset but rather, the way that Precognition is usually accessed -- still, it is not a requirement. And by that merit, daredevil has precognition.

No it doesn't. Its easy to interpret the difference. Spider-Man, through means not within his five senses, recieves warnings of danger. Daredevil, through his enhanced senses, recieves sensory input and interprets it as danger. Both may achieve the same result but only Spider-Man's can be considered true ESP

Im wondering, i dont recall ever saying Daredevil had esp (although im not saying he doesnt.. yet)

I simply said he has precognition, and he does.

SEPERATELY, Wether or not his abilities extend into the realm of esp is to be determined.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yes but the same person will tell you that Captain America shouldn't be able to hurt Spiderman with his punches. Double standards. Also if you bothered to read what I wrote afterwards you would know I have addressed that point.

Cap's punches shouldn't be able to really damage Spidey in any way. Sure, they can definitely sting a bit, Cap is one of the best fighters on the planet. But he should never be able to really hurt/wound/injure Spidey with his punches. So yes, I stand by what I said.

And you did address my point. Only incorrectly, however. 😬

Originally posted by Metalmanx
Cap's punches shouldn't be able to really damage Spidey in any way. Sure, they can definitely sting a bit, Cap is one of the best fighters on the planet. But he should never be able to really hurt/wound/injure Spidey with his punches. So yes, I stand by what I said.

And you did address my point. Only incorrectly, however. 😬

Unless its pressure points of course (Though i don't think he should be able to hit them) i can take him punching Spidey, but to hit something so precise seems far fetched for a fight with Spidey.

As for the daredevil not having esp debate... thats an interesting topic. i think he does, but im hornOOPS

im sleepy

so ill have to address that later

<3

Originally posted by Sparkz
Unless its pressure points of course (Though i don't think he should be able to hit them) i can take him punching Spidey, but to hit something so precise seems far fetched for a fight with Spidey.

Exactly.

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
See, you are missing the point entirely. Sight is a natural sense. Everyone is blessed with sight, so there is no need to make a human analigy as it does not apply here. On the other hand, if you had some sort of [b]heightened or extra-sensual (which CAN be one in the same) means of using your vision, say, you could see someones lungs filling up with fluid, you would absolutely have pre-cognition as there is no way a normal human could tell this persons was about to die.[/B]

Heightened and extra-sensory (I assume this what you meant since sensual means sexual basically) are two different things. Heightened senses are any of the five senses amped. Extra-sensory deals with senses outside of the five senses. Now Alfiem made some good points so I do concede that Daredevil has ESP (vis his radar sense which you truly can't place in the five senses).

However Daredevil does not possess pre-cognition. Now in that example you've posed that person doesn't have pre-cognition (which is simply knowing). That person, by way of their exceptional vision, saw someones lungs filling up with fluid and then deduced that that person was going to die. A real life example: I have good hearing and while standing next to a car I happen to hear air escaping from a tire. I say to the owner, your tire is going flat. Do I have precognition? The owner didn't know what i told him and unless someone else with as good or better hearing was there they wouldn't hear either. I also didn't just magically know the tire was going flat, I deduced it from what i heard to predict an outcome (the same way Daredevil predicts opponents attacks etc)

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
In the same way, through the combination of daredevils touch, and hearing, he can discern things that a human being is [b]absolutely incapable of doing. Daredevil cannot be beaten in poker due to this as well, this fact alone solidifies that he has Pre-cognition becuase thier is no human on earth that can determine with absolute certianty if someone is bluffing or not, as they have no extra-sensual means of doing so. Again, you are missing the point. By definition i never stated that daredevil had ESP. I am telling you that daredevil has precognition as does spiderman, they just have different ways of accessing it. Spiderman through Spidersense, and Daredevil through radar sense. As i have allready stressed before, daredevil can pickup on events before they happen throguh his vastly heightened senses. [/B]

You said youself Daredevil uses his touch, hearing, etc (sensory not extra-sensory). He also uses deduction (ie. such and such's heartbeat is increasing therefore he's bluffing). He doesn't have any future knowledge, he's just using bodily queues as a way to determine how to play

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
pre·cog·ni·tion - knowledge of a future event or situation, esp. through extrasensory means.

Exactly. Two things. Knowledge of future events and extrasensory means. First he does not have future knowledge. He uses his current knowledge to determine possible outcomes. Second, the means he uses (hearing, touch, smell) are not extra-sensory.

[QUOTE=7981303]Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
[B]now notice in this definition, extrasensory is not a prerequiset but rather, the way that Precognition is usually accessed -- still, it is not a requirement. And by that merit, daredevil has precognition.

I don't understand this

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
I simply said he has precognition, and he does.

No he doesn't

Originally posted by ExtraMision5555
SEPERATELY, Wether or not his abilities extend into the realm of esp is to be determined.

As precognition is an extention of ESP you are mistaken here

Originally posted by marvelprince
Because there has been nothing to back up this claim that its based on enhanced senses.

Originally posted by marvelprince

When you say enhanced senses I assume you mean from the senses he already has just on a higher level. Clarify

No well ok let me clarify it can be anything, for example DD has a radar sense as far as I know this due to his brain being attuned to a certain part of the electromagnetic spectrum....or something like that. All im saying is I just simply cant belive that it is true pre-cog. Whatever is the cause of his Spider sense its just something like DDs senses in the sense that it analyses current data and enables him to know whats happening next.

Originally posted by marvelprince

And Spider-Man can still climb walls and spin webs like spiders can. Math done

I dont even understand what your point is here, are you just agreeing with me?

Originally posted by marvelprince

But the inspiration didn't come from that spider with 'enhanced senses' that you used earlier. As Sparkz pointed out it came from Stan Lee wanting a hero that could essentially know everything that was happening at once and be alerted to danger before it took place.

Well first of all there is no quote but assuming he is correct lets look at what he said.

Originally posted by Sparkz
Ok the whole Spider-sense thing came from the fact Stan Lee was told that Spider's could see all around them with their 8 eyes, and due to the fact he didn't want to give Peter 8 eyes he gave him Spider-sense, i forget where I heard it but I remeber he said that in an interveiw.

So in other words the spider sense is not just some thing that Stan Lee came up with out of thin air it is still based on one of the spider senses, the eyes. A spider has eight eyes therefore as far as Stan Lee was concerned Spiders have enhanced senses, therefore we can assume that Spiderman's sixth sense is just a type of enhanced sense.

Originally posted by Sparkz

He called it a spider-sense and its never been fully explained.
The mystical aspects have only recently been given but throughout its creation its been a sixth sense that forewarns him of danger ie. pre-cognition

Yeah I know but im saying is this, its like talking about God. just because you cant prove the existance of God doesnt mean he does not exist. Its a similar thing with the spider sense, but what im saying is that the evidence point in the direction that it is not true pre-cog.

1. His powers are not based on a supernatural creature. According to what Sparz said his spider sense was based on one of the spider's enhanced senses.

2. Peter was bitten by a radioactive spider. All this mystical stuff is retcon.

Originally posted by Sparkz

If you have issue with it take it up with the writer. I didn't write the comics, I'm only explaining it to you as I interpret it. Any qualms you have with that are not with me

For the love of God....you missed the point....again. The point im trying to make is in general supernatural characters hang out in the supernatural parts of the MU. Spiderman in general hangs out in the scientific parts of the MU, implying he is not a supernatural character.

Originally posted by Sparkz

But the fact is that there is an explanation for Daredevil's senses and we can see he doesn't have pre-cognition. Spider-Man may not have ever fully explained his spider-sense but what we do know is that if there's a threat he senses it beforehand. That in and of itself is pre-cognition

Well already dealt with this issue.

Originally posted by Sparkz

I never meant to be rude so I'm sorry if I came off that way. What you did was take my explanation of ESP which I took to meant pre-cognition and looked at some of the broader aspects of it to find a kind which matches Daredevil. So I admit, in terms of sensing auras Daredevil does have ESP, but to delve deeper he doesn't have precognitis (a type of ESP) that allows someone to predict the future without using any sort of deductive reasoning.

Ok, to tell you the truth maybe I would not have got upset if it wasn't for other debates I have gotten into were it got pretty heated and personal remarks were made. I guess its just an accumulation of things.

Originally posted by Sparkz

Clarify what you mean by enhanced senses. When you say enhanced senses I think of Daredevil. We already know that while both of their senses allow them to avoid danger that Peter's is instinctive while Matt's require him to process information he recieves. The fact that Peter doesn't require input in order to percieve danger rules out enhanced sensesin my book

Well i already explained my defintion of enhanced senses.

This could just as easily go either way. Daredevil wins if spidey doesn't hit him once, otherwise spidey knocks his head off or punches DD's ribs out his anus.

And for those earlier who were saying DD's radar isn't different to the spider-sense, I'm afraid it is.

DD's radar gives DD a "clear image" (pardon the pun) of his surroundings and lets him know what's going on around him. he then must decide how to avoid the threat.

The spider-sense doesn't tell Peter what the danger is or necessarily any info on the nature of he trouble he is in. However the spider sense does tell Peter what to do to avoid the danger.

For example

A bullet is fired at DD. DD realises a bullet is fired at him thank to his radar, he then decides what action to take to dodge such as ducking, so DD then executes the action, or ducks.

A bullet is fired at Spidey. The spider-sense tells Peter to duck and so Peter executes that action or ducks.

So DD's radar sense is mush, much more accurate for defining the threat (so DD knows the nature of the attack but must make the decision on how to react, then doing it) whereas the Spidey sense is much much faster for reacting (So it doesn't tell Peter the nature of the attack but how to avoid it so Peter just has to do as it tells him).

Originally posted by Alfheim
No well ok let me clarify it can be anything, for example DD has a radar sense as far as I know this due to his brain being attuned to a certain part of the electromagnetic spectrum....or something like that. All im saying is I just simply cant belive that it is true pre-cog. Whatever is the cause of his Spider sense its just something like DDs senses in the sense that it analyses current data and enables him to know whats happening next.

No its not like Daredevil's sense and from there is where you mess up. He doesn't do any sort of analysis, he simply knows if danger is coming or not

Originally posted by Alfheim
So in other words the spider sense is not just some thing that Stan Lee came up with out of thin air it is still based on one of the spider senses, the eyes. A spider has eight eyes therefore as far as Stan Lee was concerned Spiders have enhanced senses, therefore we can assume that Spiderman's sixth sense is just a type of enhanced sense.

He wanted a character that was able to avoid danger from any direction and since a character with eight eyes probably wouldn't be a best seller he decided to give him a next 'sense'. The fact that they've almost always described the spider-sense as a sixth sense should be an indicator that it goes above enhanced senses. If it were enhanced senses then they would have called it enhanced senses.

Originally posted by Alfheim
Yeah I know but im saying is this, its like talking about God. just because you cant prove the existance of God doesnt mean he does not exist. Its a similar thing with the spider sense, but what im saying is that the evidence point in the direction that it is not true pre-cog.

But there is evidence that God exist. Show me examples of Spider-Man comics where the spider-sense works as a result of enhanced senses. Show me where he has to hear/smell/ taste something and then deduce that its dangerous before moving.

Originally posted by Alfheim
1. His powers are not based on a supernatural creature. According to what Sparz said his spider sense was based on one of the spider's enhanced senses.

Your just reaching here

Originally posted by Alfheim
2. Peter was bitten by a radioactive spider. All this mystical stuff is retcon.

You should take a look at "The Other" (not an insult or anything but it'll help you understand this better)

Originally posted by Alfheim
For the love of God....you missed the point....again. The point im trying to make is in general supernatural characters hang out in the supernatural parts of the MU. Spiderman in general hangs out in the scientific parts of the MU, implying he is not a supernatural character.

He's not a supernatural character. They simply tried to use a mystical spin to explain why he got his powers and how they work. I'm not going into this. Your example is flawed anyway cause then you would Juggernaut hang out with mutants?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok, to tell you the truth maybe I would not have got upset if it wasn't for other debates I have gotten into were it got pretty heated and personal remarks were made. I guess its just an accumulation of things.

Np

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well i already explained my defintion of enhanced senses.

I just don't see how you can ignore years and years of canon comics attributing the spider-sense to a sixth sense to come here and say its as a result of enhanced senses. If it were as a result of enhanced senses (eyes) then he would have to work like Daredevil. He'd have to see the danger then process it and decide that it is danger and move. Thats not what happens. He simply realizes danger is present without having to rely on external output and the deductive process (ie. precognitis)

Honestly though all this talk about the origin and basis of spider-sense is pointless. It really has no bearing in this discussion. What should matter is how it works. Daredevil, and other characters with enhanced senses (Wolverine, Black Panther, etc) can use their senses to discern enviromental changes to interpret danger. Spider-Man on the other hand just senses it. There is nothing to tie spider-sense to enhanced senses and regardless of how he has it (either through science or sorcery) it is still precognition

Originally posted by marvelprince
I just don't see how you can ignore years and years of canon comics attributing the spider-sense to a sixth sense to come here and say its as a result of enhanced senses. If it were as a result of enhanced senses (eyes) then he would have to work like Daredevil. He'd have to see the danger then process it and decide that it is danger and move. Thats not what happens. He simply realizes danger is present without having to rely on external output and the deductive process (ie. precognitis)

✅ I agree.............

Originally posted by willRules
This could just as easily go either way. Daredevil wins if spidey doesn't hit him once, otherwise spidey knocks his head off or punches DD's ribs out his anus.

And for those earlier who were saying DD's radar isn't different to the spider-sense, I'm afraid it is.

DD's radar gives DD a "clear image" (pardon the pun) of his surroundings and lets him know what's going on around him. he then must decide how to avoid the threat.

The spider-sense doesn't tell Peter what the danger is or necessarily any info on the nature of he trouble he is in. However the spider sense does tell Peter what to do to avoid the danger.

For example

A bullet is fired at DD. DD realises a bullet is fired at him thank to his radar, he then decides what action to take to dodge such as ducking, so DD then executes the action, or ducks.

A bullet is fired at Spidey. The spider-sense tells Peter to duck and so Peter executes that action or ducks.

So DD's radar sense is mush, much more accurate for defining the threat (so DD knows the nature of the attack but must make the decision on how to react, then doing it) whereas the Spidey sense is much much faster for reacting (So it doesn't tell Peter the nature of the attack but how to avoid it so Peter just has to do as it tells him).

Originally posted by marvelprince

I just don't see how you can ignore years and years of canon comics attributing the spider-sense to a sixth sense to come here and say its as a result of enhanced senses. If it were as a result of enhanced senses (eyes) then he would have to work like Daredevil. He'd have to see the danger then process it and decide that it is danger and move. Thats not what happens. He simply realizes danger is present without having to rely on external output and the deductive process (ie. precognitis)

Honestly though all this talk about the origin and basis of spider-sense is pointless. It really has no bearing in this discussion. What should matter is how it works. Daredevil, and other characters with enhanced senses (Wolverine, Black Panther, etc) can use their senses to discern enviromental changes to interpret danger. Spider-Man on the other hand just senses it. There is nothing to tie spider-sense to enhanced senses and regardless of how he has it (either through science or sorcery) it is still precognition

You know what im going to ignore the rest of the post because I think this is the main point. I dont know I always kinda got the impression that it wasn't psionic or supernatural *shrug*. Anyway I think your right......I dont know why im arguing.... 😆

Ok i'll say its pre-cog but I still think this mystical business is just retcon. The mutant Destiny is not supernatural but she can predict the future.

Originally posted by Alfheim
You know what im going to ignore the rest of the post because I think this is the main point. I dont know I always kinda got the impression that it wasn't psionic or supernatural *shrug*. Anyway I think your right......I dont know why im arguing.... 😆

Ok i'll say its pre-cog but I still think this mystical business is just retcon. The mutant Destiny is not supernatural but she can predict the future.

The way I look at it the mystical thing is just a way for JMS to give a reason behind the spider-sense. Before it was just a vague danger sense that he didn't understand but by saying its mystical the writer could then say thats not is the spider-sense mystical (hence why it doesn't make sense) but that Spider-Man could have possibly gotten his powers through mystic means.

Personally I hate it. Never bought any of this mystic/totemic mumbo jumbo that they've trying to force feed me. Hopefully will come along and say it was all a dream or something

Originally posted by marvelprince

As precognition is an extention of ESP you are mistaken here

For the record, Precognition is not an extension of ESP (CAN be, but it is not absolute) it can be accessed by supernatural abilities (which may or may not be an extra sense)

Anyways, it seems like your thinking of Precog in the broad sense of predicting the future or seeing events in the future, which is largely correct. And truthfully, your not entirely wrong by saying daredevil does not have precog. I disagree, but i understand its subjective. Perhaps more speciffically, daredevil has extremely strong Premonitions (when it comes to combat and behavior) which allows him to successfully predict the future relative to these scenarios. Premonition is synonimous with Precognition, but precog is obviously more geared towards the larger sense of the word which is what i think you and most people regard it as.

Ultimatley, like i said before i dont see the problem with Lumping spiderman and daredevils senses as precog, save a few exceptions when spiderman has literally been clairvoyant. Essentially, their senses have the same "endpoint", if that makes any sense. Only difference being Daredevil must use his supernatural talents to access information humans have no access to, and make a deduction that way and due to the nature of his abilities, he is able to do so before it actually takes place regardless of how nigh the event is.

p.s one of the quotes in my original post i think got mixed around with one of yourS? because i looked at it and its missing the paragraph that i never typed. but in the quote its thier? wierd

Originally posted by marvelprince
Personally I hate it. Never bought any of this mystic/totemic mumbo jumbo that they've trying to force feed me. Hopefully will come along and say it was all a dream or something

Yeah I agree ✅

I personally think it would have been better if they had presented the mystical angle but left it open to debate, kinda like they did when they first introduced Ezekiel. It would have been cool if they (Instead of force feeding us) presented it as another option for the reader to decide.....

Originally posted by willRules
Yeah I agree ✅

I personally think it would have been better if they had presented the mystical angle but left it open to debate, kinda like they did when they first introduced Ezekiel. It would have been cool if they (Instead of force feeding us) presented it as another option for the reader to decide.....

Yes. When Ezekiel came and posed the question whether or not the spider intended or accidentally gave Peter his powers I thought it was cool and it nice to leave it as is. Have it a mystery of sorts to both the reader and character. Then "The Other" came and made it so there's no more mystery (sort of). I would have greatly prefered if they had left it alone.

Bump.😈

I heard on marvel Daredevils senses are so good he can feel ink on paper. And dont forget Daredevils supreme fighting skills and skilled acrobatics.