Darth Vader versus Darth Bane

Started by Gideon14 pages

AC's getting confused; what Palpatine did in Sithisis was not a Force Storm. He performed a Sith ritual involving what appeared to be some sort of Sith worm/insect. He is seen communcating with hundreds and hundreds of Sith spirits. It shows him devolve from the Chancellor as we know to the Emperor. His face suddenly looks demonic and aged (presumably from the dark side energies within).

What AC is referring to, however, is that Sidious attacks a galactic map of the galaxy with Force lightning during this ritual. The comic then shows us all over the galaxy of massive storms kicking up. Jedi morale plummets like Enron's stock. Yoda and Anakin are all effected and feel massive disturbances in the Force.

Then, at the end, Sidious's appearance returns to normal, and he is seen leaving his office in the company of his Royal Guardsmen.

Okay last post before my vacation....

Could you give proof that his hate and rage are “controlling” him? As in a passage from ROTS novelization. I have read that passage, but I don’t seem to see where it says that...

Well, the duel is written from Obi Wans perspective, so it'll be kinda hard to find a quote like that. But I can come as close too it as possible:

"You don't get to take her anywhere . You dan't get to touch her. She's mine , do you understand? It's your fault, all of it --you made her betray me

"Almost as though he was still afraid ...
She will die, you know , the dragon whispered
He shook himself, scowling. Impossible. He was Darth Vader.
Fear had no power over him. He had destroyed his fear.
All things die.
Yet it was though when he had crushed the dragon under his boot, the dragon sunk venomed fangs into his heel.
Now its poison chilled him to the bone
Even stars burn out. "

As you can see thats Anakins mindset, right before the duel before it takes over with Obi Wan's perspective, he was wrestling with his dragon...lol...and going nuts over Padme. Not the same as his crystal clear, I decide I want to win, mind set.


All Bane would have to do is bring in Padme, and Vader would be lying on the floor crying 😛

At least Anakin got some ass, Bane had hot ass Githany and never tapped that once...virgin. 😛

Could you type it out then 😛

I really don't feel like it, I 'll do it when I get back since Im stressed for time.

Not at all dude. I am saying, how much is half a page in actual battle time? You seem to make it out as being incredibly fast. Maybe the author did not want to elaborate on all the nuances. It is common writing practice to do such, in order to shift focus away from certain parts.

Then it becomes a well this coulda happened...that coulda happened, I go by what was written on the page, and after Kas'im's attack Bane DOMINATES the next half.

Come on man! It says every time he switches forms, Bane anticipated it and was able to seize the advantage despite the fact that he was switching forms. He tried, but it just...didn’t...change... a damn thing. Bane was too good.

He tried and couldn't do it, and yes Bane was overwhelming him.

In other words, he knew too much about his opponents attacks for the “seven forms of lightsaber duelling” mastery to do a damn thing. He knew how to counter the seven forms, even against someone who mastered using each of them.

Since it doesn't say he switched to...Djem So....to Soresu....to Makashi...to Juyo...to Ataru....to Shinen. It says he TRIED to switch forms but was overwhelmed, and it doesn't say WHAT form he switched to, your just assuming.

He was retreating, but not without noticing his mastery of the seven forms was a joke considering Bane’s sheer force prowess and corresponding sabre mastery. Bane was too good, despite Kas’im’s mastery of the seven forms. Meaning Bane knew enough about them counter them even after they started.

You mean BEFORE they started.

Many of them were capable of producing force lightning, which we still do not know whether Ani or Maul know how to do. That is “fairly” good training when you are being relative and these guys are just sith padawans.

Many? Pttf...the book says that only the STRONGEST were allowed in on the lesson, And that includes what Sirak and Githany? And even still Sirak there "supposed" Sith'ari could only shoot out a single BOLT of lightning.

Oh come on AC, you know as well as I do that Bane was the prophesized Sith’ari. He was definitely a visionary, sort of like the “dark” King David. 😛 He realized that the strategies and view of the dark side the current sith order was taking was not the right one. He rebelled against Qordis for that reason, ushering a new age of Sith Lords that would take over the Republic. Without Bane, there would be no Vader, and no Sidious.

At that point in the novel, Bane was NOT the visionary, Dark Lord he was an angry student with a rebellious teen attitude cause he wasn't being taught and thought the Ancients would do a better job so he ran away from home.

*Sigh* but you missed mine. I said that you cannot compare *them* to Revan. It’s like comparing Dooku with DN Luke. Just because he is not as good, it does not mean he is bad. The order was good; they fought against warlike Jedi such as Hoth and his genius tactics, yet they were keeping him at bay. Kopecz was able to take down three Jedi, one of whom was a master, simultaneously without even sweating. Kaan was capable of iniating the thought bomb, perhaps one of the most devastating techniques to attack living beings.

No, I got the point. I just choose to ignore it. 😎

And the order was NOT that good as a whole the ENTIRE group of Jedi and Sith blew ass. They lived in a time known as the Republics "dark ages" (According to NEC) There knowledge was scarce as seen and they had an overall WEAK Sith BoD which the majority consisted of Sith students who were largely self trained (As Sirak, Githany and Bane got all the attention at some point) who had a basic understanding of the dark side and of lightsaber combat, and who were Kaan's sycophants. Then we have Kaan who was overwhelmed by a Jedi in a BM duel, Kaan who was largely a narcissists coward, with an influence ability.

Then you have the Jedi and there "Army of light" the mighty Jedi recruiting CHILDREN too fight. The mighty Jedi who couldn't even sense that some kid was lying about force sensitivity, the mighty Jedi who gave out sabers like they were cookies, the mighty Jedi who could barley beat the equally shitty Brotherhood.

Again, I recall vaguely in Obsession that Ventress could take both Anakin and Obi Wan at once. That proves that Ventress is rather strong, and this is pre ROTS Obi Wan, still not quite as strong as ROTS, where his Soresu mastery was remarked by Dooku .

The ONLY time Ventress actually fights in Obsessions is when, she busts out of the Bacta tank and Anakin tries to engage her but OB1 stops him, she doesn't actually fight them. And Anakin has owned her alone twice and she was afraid of OB1 and Anakin in Dark Rendezvous.

Chee remarked some of the moves that they pulled off in CW were exaggerated, but that they are accepted into canon. So Grievous was still able to defeat 5 Jedi masters, although some of his uber leet godliness was false.

Exactly as cool as he his in that its pretty BS and then we have the fact that the version OB1 fought was a WEAKER one thanks to Mace.

Hell there is such a thing as active heart rate and resting heart rate. As you can see, if it were not referring to Bane or Kas’im, that statement means jack shit. “In the space of two heartbeats” is too varied to even bother considering.

Pretty much so, I was trying to get at least a gauge of Banes speed that didn't involve him building up force energy.

We have seen that Twi’lek’s have blood so then oxygen is pumped into every muscle within the twi’lek body. Oxygen can only be transferred from the atmosphere into a lung-like structure. From this we see that Twi’leks have roughly the same biological makeup as humans. The only difference is that they have no body hair (wussies) and a lekku (lucky bastards.)

No they don't since we've never seen a Twi'lek cut open we don't know, what we do know is that their brains are housed in their Lekku, hence why pulling on it causes Brain Damage.

With that we can see Kas’im’s active heart rate when he was using those moves would be roughly equivalent to Bane's; considering they were moving at such high velocities, it would rise quickly.

We can't even be sure what type of heart they have, how big are there blood vessels, how much blood can be pumped per second, how many beats per second they have, how much much oxygen is needed for their heart. So the statement is pretty much useless. Oh well, I tried.

By the level of exhaustion shown by Bane, we can make a lower estimate of his hr being 240 hb/minute. Such a high heart rate is attributed to how incredibly fit Bane is, being a Sith Lord and having the force on his side (maybe higher, this is just a lower estimate) This means “6 lightsaber passes in the space of two heart beats” is calculated to be “12 lightsaber blows per second.”

I calculated Anakin and Kenobi’s which is roughly 1.69. Again, Bane and Kas are roughly 8 times faster.

See above. The we have the fact that Bane WASN'T exhausted, hew as fresh. And it didn't say "In the space of two of BANES heartbeats." your calculations are wrong. Hell Bane could even have a irregular heartbeat we don't know. So were back to square one.

That is the problem man. You can’t. Heart beats vary per person, it is simply incorrect to base it off of yours. Why not me? Why not that fat guy running outside probably overexhausting himself?

Agreed. Thus why I've dropped the point as you should, since we have no way of telling "who's heartbeat"

Seeing as how they are both moving at a “speed faster than the eyes could see,” their heart rates have probably increased quite dramatically in the beginning.

Ah no, they weren't moving faster then the eye can see, it just says Kas'im was moving faster then he was in the practice duels, and the heart beat comment is bullshit now.


Your interpretation is the less logical one. The author could have explained it differently if he wanted to conform to your views. Anakin says that Sidious was a “blur,” which pretty clearly indicates he could not recognize him.
Me not liking...what?!? I love that dialogue, wtf are you talking about man? 😛. I just see it for what it is. Anakin cannot make it out, it was too fast, hence he refers to it as a blur.

I concede the point, I just re read the passage and Anakin couldn't see them. But since you know Anakin wasn't even their to witness the duel in the movie that WHOLE little scene involving Anakin's eyesight is non canon. Anakin came in on, when Palpatine was on his ass, the way Lucas intended it not, Matt Stover. Higher source of canon. I wins!!!!!! 😱

That he was able to use such skills only by DE seems to indicate that his force connection was also more, lets say, “refined.”

I disagree, you can't increase your own actual connection to the force (unless your Kyle Katarn) I DOUBT Palpatine had reservations about giving himself over to the Dark Side...pre Dark Empire.

I completely disagree with this. Where was it stated? Show me? Was it really canon?

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=048
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http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=058
http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=059

Lightsnake claims its canon.

Yes, but if Sidious is both physically fit and possesses a younger body, he is substantially stronger. Look at Yoda, during the last few years of his life, he became decrepit. His sense were foggier. Same with Ben, he became weaker.
I would say physical prowess can be modelled mathematically as being

10^x as opposed to 2^x. The exponent varies per person‘s force connection, but the base varies as per physical fitness.


The difference is, Yoda was what 900 years old and sick. And Ben was way put of practice and shape, Palpatine is in his 60's and as we know from LOTF 60 is the new 40 (look at Luke) And then we have Dooku who is 80 being one of the best duelists ever.

What?! YOU are being subjective man. You are saying it is a reference to TPM, which is clearly illogical. What has TPM or ROTJ Sidious demonstrated that trumps “nudging a moon” or collapsing a gargantuan structure with raw force energy?

Feat Wars! When did he have too? These powers don't simply go away with the changing era's. Your basing everything of feats, you do know Palpatine was under the guise as a Senator and Chancellor from TMP to ROTS. In ROTJ, he didn't have the power to do so yet, as I've said he gained it from the Anicents.

Empire's End: Sith spirits: "He gave up everything to the Dark Side long ago. He has become the greatest who ever lived. He is the strongest who ever lived....I say we give what he wishes."

Page 109 from the Dark Empire sourcebook:

"Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned."

Sidious lashed out with blinding speed, brandishing a previously hidden lightsaber blade in a sudden strike that killed all of the Jedi Masters Mace Windu had assembled to arrest the Chancellor.

His eyes burned yellow, his voice grew ragged and deep, and he became a well of dark side energies.

He is the most powerful practitioner of the Sith ways in modern times. He studied the ancient ruins on the Sith mausoleum world of Korriban. He unlocked secrets of the Force from a captured Jedi Holocron. The dark side energies flowing through Palpatine's body were so intense, that they ravaged his mortal frame. The very source of Palpatine's strength was killing him.
- The DATABANK

Imploding? Please show me where it says that. It was safe enough that he spent basically a days under it . I would not learn under a structure that I questioned the structural integrity of. That the rocks exploded and the foundations crumbled with one blast of energy is a testament to his sheer force power. Stop downplaying the technique.

"Bane watched the spectacle of the temples IMPLOSION from the safety of the ground at the foot of the stairs," -pg 245

How did Bane get across? He had a beast that he was planning to travel to the moon with. He had no means of travelling through the atmosphere. If he did not nudge the moon, then something is fvcked up. First of all, he would need to reach escape velocity to escape the gravitational pull of the planet he was on, (if he did that, he would essentially be superman, rockets have to travel at speeds far surpassing the speed of sound to attain enough velocity to overcome the pull of Earth). If he pulled that off by some miracle, he would have to find some way to make the beast he was riding survive without breathing.

By nudging the moon closer, he could travel to it via the beast he was on.

As I said, the ground of Dxun is LITTERED with ships. Its not utterly ridicules to assume that Bane found one in working order, the Duros ship from KOTOR 2 is still on the plant and it was completely unsaved as far as I know of, The Mandalorian encampment's remains are there, The Sith used ships to access the planet.

For an instant none of the spectators [force users] was even aware of what had happened; it took their minds a moment to catch up and register the blur of action that had occurred so much quicker than their eyes could see

Karapshyn even goes through the effort of saying “so much quicker.” That “so much quicker” is identical to the type of speed that Leia experienced when watching DE Sidious fight. It does not say, the eyes could just make it out. It says that he was travelling so much faster.

This is one piece of evidence showing Bane’s incredible speed. Here is another peice of evidence:

You conveniently left out the fact that Bane had been gathering up the force energy to do that and once he unleashed it it was gone.

How can you beat a master at lightsaber duelling in round one if you are not a master of lightsaber duelling? If he is able to channel the force into Djem So enough so that he can beat counter all seven forms of lightsaber duelling even after Kas “trys them” in round one, he is a master, for all intents and purposes.

Thats so dumb, if were going by Kas'im definition a fallible character, then all you simply need to be is leet in the force and have basic understanding of the forms to be uber at dueling. Thats bull shit. If that was the case then WHAT THE F*CK did Kas'im spend decades mastering them for? Why is not everyone with an above average connection leet with a saber? What is even the point of having advanced moves of forms? It contradicts everything known about saber styles.

If he didn’t master Djem So, he was using form “Bane” to defeat Kas’im.

No he used Djem So and his OVERWHELMING connection compared to Kas'im to beat him. Thats it. When faced with someone with an equally strong connection (Yoda, Anakin, Vader, Sidious, Dooku, Revan, Exar) it doesn't happen.

I beg to differ 😛 Bane is just a tactical genius. He removed both the Jedi and the Sith with his brilliance.

That it took hours to come up with...while the foce wave was spur of the moment.

You know you want the big black man 😛
Vader is a wigger: he is a white man trying to be black.

James Earl Jones cancels out Hayden Christian. 😛

Anyways I shall return 😄


"You don't get to take her anywhere . You dan't get to touch her. She's mine , do you understand? It's your fault, all of it --you made her betray me

"Almost as though he was still afraid ...
She will die, you know , the dragon whispered
He shook himself, scowling. Impossible. He was Darth Vader.
Fear had no power over him. He had destroyed his fear.
All things die.
Yet it was though when he had crushed the dragon under his boot, the dragon sunk venomed fangs into his heel.
Now its poison chilled him to the bone
Even stars burn out.

Any quote during the entire fight though that actually states that he was debilitated by this presumed fear? For all you know, it may have strengthened his resolve to kill Kenobi, and improved his clarity.

For example, Luke was fighting in a rage and managed to completely dominate Vader during the latter part of their duel. Unless it¡¦s implicitly hinted by the author in the fight that the fear actually had a negative impact on his fighting skill, I will withhold judgment.


At least Anakin got some ass, Bane had hot ass Githany and never tapped that once...virgin. 😛

At least Bane¡¦s wanker was still intact at the end of it all. The orbalisks obviously heightened his libido and sexual prowess by virtue of the whole ¡§continuously pumping adrenaline and strength¡¨ thing.

Did I just say that? I feel sad now. ƒ¼


Then it becomes a well this coulda happened...that coulda happened, I go by what was written on the page, and after Kas'im's attack Bane DOMINATES the next half.

It states clearly that Kas¡¦im ¡§lunged¡¨ in twice. However the length of each assault was not explicitly stated by the author, because he did not feel the need to elaborate on the very tiny nuances of their dueling.

Either way it¡¦s irrelevant.


It says he TRIED to switch forms but was overwhelmed, and it doesn't say WHAT form he switched to, your just assuming.

It doesn¡¦t say that Kas¡¦im was simply overwhelmed. It says that : ¡§Bane anticipated, reacted and seized the advantage¡¨

This clearly means that Bane was able to understand the disadvantages associated with each of the seven forms of lightsaber fighting, more impressively, against somebody who achieved the near perfection in each form.


Many? Pttf...the book says that only the STRONGEST were allowed in on the lesson, And that includes what Sirak and Githany? And even still Sirak there "supposed" Sith'ari could only shoot out a single BOLT of lightning.

Which speaks nothing for their lack of education. Even Anakin did not know how to produce sith lightning. That Sirak, knew, in itself speaks for the competence of their trainers. Either way, its irrelevant to the discussion at hand.


At that point in the novel, Bane was NOT the visionary, Dark Lord he was an angry student with a rebellious teen attitude cause he wasn't being taught and thought the Ancients would do a better job so he ran away from home.

He went to the tombs because he delved into enough history to recognize that as per his standards his order was weak. What you carry is your own opinion, however, and I do not feel the need to change it.

Sith BoD which the majority consisted of Sith students who were largely self trained

Self-trained? Where in PoD is this mentioned. Bane self trained himself, as was expected, but the other students seemed to be getting normal instruction.

were Kaan's sycophants.

And? Maul was Sidious¡¦s loyal lapdog. Dooku wanked off to Sidious every opportunity he could get. How does this speak ill of their martial prowess?

Then we have Kaan who was overwhelmed by a Jedi in a BM duel

Against who? Hoth? He was the best Jedi around at the time. Farfalla? Again, tied for tops.


Kaan who was largely a narcissists coward, with an influence ability.

Hardly. Considering the only person he was truly afraid of was Bane, how do you come to the conclusion that he was in general a coward?


Then you have the Jedi and there "Army of light" the mighty Jedi recruiting CHILDREN too fight

What does who they recruit at the very most desperate stage of the battle reflect on their martial prowess before they started their long war?


The mighty Jedi who couldn't even sense that some kid was lying about force sensitivity

Argh…not this again. If he were non force sensitive, how was he able to perform spider man leaps, train Raine on how to use the force, and defeat a 7-ft tall marauder trained in the force? He was also dominating against Bug (a known sensitive) in their duel. Githany herself could see the force in him, the same person who noticed Bane’s potential despite him closing himself from the darkside.


the mighty Jedi who gave out sabers like they were cookies[/quote, the mighty Jedi who could barley beat the equally shitty Brotherhood.

This is not proving the martial weakness of their orders. They were engaged in an incredibly long war where both sides suffered from extreme casualties. As a result, the Sith needed to squeeze every last drop of force sensitive into combat to give them even the slightest edge. The Jedi wanted to protect the children by recruiting them onto their side. At midpoint during their war, neither side had to resort to such underhanded tactics as their respective were far stronger and energized.

Really, this is WAY off topic.


Exactly as cool as he his in that its pretty BS and then we have the fact that the version OB1 fought was a WEAKER one thanks to Mace.

Is their proof that Grievous was actually weaker in a combat sense.? Malak lost a jaw, yet that didn’t negatively impact his fighting prowess. Grievous isn’t even an organic creature (of which heart is necessarily to get the blood moving and oxygen pumping to muscles.) The fact that he was able to defeat Grievous indicates a strong enough connection to the force. That was what, it would seem, which enabled him to win.

Pretty much so, I was trying to get at least a gauge of Banes speed that didn't involve him building up force energy.

I don’t understand what you mean by “building” up force energy. I understand the fact that Bane was using the force to augment his speed (like every other damn force user doees), but the book never says that he needs to build up force energy in order to move at supernatural speeds. It states that he was controlling the desire to use his full power on Sirak, because he wanted to toy with him first.


Agreed. Thus why I've dropped the point as you should, since we have no way of telling "who's heartbeat"

Agreed.

I concede the point, I just re read the passage and Anakin couldn't see them. But since you know Anakin wasn't even their to witness the duel in the movie that WHOLE little scene involving Anakin's eyesight is non canon.

Well he actually sees the last bits of the combat. Anakin was moving in and we see Mace and Sidious, dueling, and finally Sidious falling on the floor. At that moment, Anakin was moving through the doorway leading into the room, so we are led to believe that he could see the ending part of the duel. The quote is far from invalid. Sidious could kill three masters in the blink of an eye, one of which was nearly at Kenobi’s level, he is beyond Anakin.


I disagree, you can't increase your own actual connection to the force (unless your Kyle Katarn) I DOUBT Palpatine had reservations about giving himself over to the Dark Side...pre Dark Empire.

http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=048
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http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=051
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http://www.swtimeline.ru/?comics=176&page=059

That doesn’t seem similar to a force storm at all. The effects weren’t described in the same light as a force storm, in that it in no way, shape or form resembles a wormhole. In fact it takes specific ingredients (that slug creature) as well as Palpatine placing himself in a vulnerable position to accomplish. And as per Gideon, and from my own observations, the attack affected the morale of the Jedi. Its effects resemble battle meditation over the force storm Palpatine demonstrated in DE.


The difference is, Yoda was what 900 years old and sick. And Ben was way put of practice and shape, Palpatine is in his 60's and as we know from LOTF 60 is the new 40 (look at Luke)

My point is, due to the fact that Palpatine was in a “younger” body, he would do far better in saber dueling than when he was in an “older” body. To disregard age like it means nothing is beyond reasonable.

What I am NOT saying that an older duelist would do worse than a younger duelist. What I am saying is that if an older duelist were given a more youthful body, he would do better then if he were in a decrepit body. Especially when said user’s refinement in the force was more, how shall I put it, “fine tuned.”


And then we have Dooku who is 80 being one of the best duelists ever.

If Dooku’s soul was transferred to a younger, stronger body, he’d be even better.


Empire's End: Sith spirits: "He gave up everything to the Dark Side long ago. He has become the greatest who ever lived. He is the strongest who ever lived....I say we give what he wishes."

That was as per Empire’s end, not by ROTS. It was a random opinion of a fallible sith spirit as well. In fact, others were criticizing him on his audacity to appear before them.


"Palpatine has risen from the dead. The most powerful Sith Lord who ever lived had returned."

I would not call a sourcebook to DE valid by today’s standards, especially [/i] given the publication of BOTS, POD, and the movie’s own rendition of Sidious’ power.

BOTS and POD, by actual evidence and not simply hyperbole supports its quotes putting Bane on top of Sidious as of ROTS. If the quote that puts Sidious on top is not supported by evidence [b]within the mythos, then it is simply an unsupported quote. Unless I can see these quotes properly backed, they remain what they are, hyperbole. If it contradicts the highest form of canon on Palpatine’s capabilities, I consider it hyperbole.

As per the highest form of canon, Lucas’ own Revenge of the Sith, Palpatine’s power does not match a person of say, Revan, Kun’s, or Bane’s caliber. He has shown some simple TK (throwing pods downwards which would be easy considering gravity), and some abilities in force lightning. And he was fighting against his mortal enemy at the time. There is no reason why he is performing at anything less than his full power. Even the novel’s elaboration doesn’t put Palpatine any higher than the movie depicted.


He is the most powerful practitioner of the Sith ways in modern times.

AC, are you joking? You’re very own quote serves to emphasize that Palpatine was the strongest Sith of modern times. Seeing as how Bane is a good millennia before “modern”, I consider the quote irrelevant.


He studied the ancient ruins on the Sith mausoleum world of Korriban. He unlocked secrets of the Force from a captured Jedi Holocron.

Every great Sith Lord has done his homework. I am still not seeing where you get your conclusions from. Much of the knowledge from Korriban was lost and burned after Kun sacked the place.


"Bane watched the spectacle of the temples IMPLOSION from the safety of the ground at the foot of the stairs," -pg 245

Lol, I think you are referring to this passage. “A second later, the rest of the roof caved in, drowning out the Twi’lek’s dying screams with a deafening rumble. Bane watched the spectacle of the temples implosion from the safety of the ground at the foot of the stairs,” The implosion was happening after Bane “tore the foundations of the great Rakatan temple.”

In fact, DK makes it a point to emphasize the temple was in fine condition. “The stone was neither worn nor cracked despite its age.” Clearly there was some supernatural force permeating and keeping the temple in fine condition.


As I said, the ground of Dxun is LITTERED with ships. Its not utterly ridicules to assume that Bane found one in working order, the Duros ship from KOTOR 2 is still on the plant and it was completely unsaved as far as I know of, The Mandalorian encampment's remains are there, The Sith used ships to access the planet.

Bane studied the creature for a moment. Then, like the fabled ancient beast-riders of Onderon, he climbed onto the flying monster's back, ready to ride off. This was a good omen, a sign for his future, and Darth Bane smiled.
He yanked at the flying beast's neck, and it flapped its leathery wings, raising him into the heavy air. It spat and thrashed, but finally relented to the presence of the Sith Lord on its back. Bane rode his new mount.
Now that he understood the depths of Sith powers, he thought he might even have control over worlds and moons, able to play with orbits and gravity like a child might play with colored balls.
Long ago, Dxun had grazed the planet Onderon, close enough that it was possible for creatures to pass across the conjoined atmosphere. Perhaps Bane could nudge the beast moon close enough so that he could travel to the nearby planet that filled the sky. In bloodshed and chaos, Darth Bane would go to Onderon... and there he would find his apprentice.

We know for certain that Bane was on a flying mount and intended to connect the two atmosphere’s. Anderson was content to leave it at that, not to explore how Bane pushed the two atmosphere’s together.

The ghost ships that pervaded the landscape were probably reduced to nothing more than worthless slag, and it was stated that the moon was a graveyard. There were no ship’s traveling in or out.

How do you possibly imagine Bane traveled to Onderon?

We have on one hand, possibilities that were not even explored or hinted by Anderson, which you seem to tend towards to downplay Bane. Then we have the possibility which Anderson seems more favourable towards, and which seems the most plausible. Clearly it is the most logical conclusion. What you are effectively doing, AC, is leading us into “wild goose chases” on what Bane “might” have done, when a simpler and clearer option is presented to us by Anderson.


You conveniently left out the fact that Bane had been gathering up the force energy to do that and once he unleashed it it was gone.

Bane was savoring his soon to be victory against Sirak, not “gathering energy” as you seem to believe.

“Bane probably knew he could probably beat Sirak now…. he’d never leave himself exposed the way Bane had. Not at first. Not unless Bane somehow lured him.”

“Yet even though he was battling the Zabrak, Bane’s real struggle was with himself. Time and again, he had to pull back to keep from lunging through an opening…”

He was controlling his desire (that is unleashing his blinding speed). He wanted to humiliate Sirak first, before utterly destroying him. The rest of the passage details how hungry he was for the need to destroy Sirak, not that he had to gather energy at all.

Kas’im even later emphasizes on Bane’s technique, stating how he was keeping his true strength “hidden,” not that he had to gather it up or anything of the sort.

Thats so dumb, if were going by Kas'im definition a fallible character, then all you simply need to be is leet in the force and have basic understanding of the forms to be uber at dueling. Thats bull shit. If that was the case then WHAT THE F*CK did Kas'im spend decades mastering them for?

There is a misinterpretation here on your part. Kas’im emphasized that a connection to the force was the most important factor. Knowing different sequences can be useful because it gives you more options, but it is far from making you a master at lightsaber dueling.

But by the end of PoD, Bane has seen almost all forms of dueling, and observed it from someone who devoted his life to honing every skill in the lightsaber, one of the strongest duelists in the galaxy. Vader is not going to have more options than someone who dedicated decades mastering every ligthsaber form.

No he used Djem So and his OVERWHELMING connection compared to Kas'im to beat him. Thats it. When faced with someone with an equally strong connection (Yoda, Anakin, Vader, Sidious, Dooku, Revan, Exar) it doesn't happen.

Bane’s capabilities in the force outshine Vader’s as per the ending of BOTS and POD. Vader’s abilities were never fully recognized. If it’s OT Vader, he had his abilities greatly reduced from falling into lava. If it is ROTS Anakin, he still has not reached all his potential since Obi Wan was able to use Soresu effectively to slice him into pieces. In fact, as per the highest form of canon, Vader doesn’t even know how to manipulate lightning. His abilities have all been instinctual, and hence cannot be relegated to a specific combat scenario. Bane is not going to have as much difficulty as Kenobi, he is far less predictable and far more powerful in the force.

A friend of mine has died so I'll probably respond in 4-5 days or so, I'm in no mood to argue over SW right now.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
A friend of mine has died so I'll probably respond in 4-5 days or so, I'm in no mood to argue over SW right now.

Oh my...my sincerest condelences... I know how hard it is to lose a friend...

Take it easy man.

Yes indeed, take as much time as you need. It is hard, but I hope you will pull through.

Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
A friend of mine has died so I'll probably respond in 4-5 days or so, I'm in no mood to argue over SW right now.
Sry to hear that.. anyways take it easy ok

A friend of mine has died so I'll probably respond in 4-5 days or so, I'm in no mood to argue over SW right now.

My condolences man, take your time and hope things work out.

I would not call a sourcebook to DE valid by today’s standards, especially [/i] given the publication of BOTS, POD, and the movie’s own rendition of Sidious’ power.

BOTS and POD, by actual evidence and not simply hyperbole supports its quotes putting Bane on top of Sidious as of ROTS. If the quote that puts Sidious on top is not supported by evidence [b]within the mythos, then it is simply an unsupported quote. Unless I can see these quotes properly backed, they remain what they are, hyperbole. If it contradicts the highest form of canon on Palpatine’s capabilities, I consider it hyperbole.

As per the highest form of canon, Lucas’ own Revenge of the Sith, Palpatine’s power does not match a person of say, Revan, Kun’s, or Bane’s caliber. He has shown some simple TK (throwing pods downwards which would be easy considering gravity), and some abilities in force lightning. And he was fighting against his mortal enemy at the time. There is no reason why he is performing at anything less than his full power. Even the novel’s elaboration doesn’t put Palpatine any higher than the movie depicted.

Those quotes were made for DE Sidious - who is more powerful than RotS Sidious, Zephiel. I hope Noobaris's Bane-fanboyism hasn't become an epidemic, and those quotes aren't hyperbole, no matter how much you wish that they were.

nice nickname for nebaris, n00baris lolz!

Thanks for all the comments

Any quote during the entire fight though that actually states that he was debilitated by this presumed fear? For all you know, it may have strengthened his resolve to kill Kenobi, and improved his clarity.

As I already said the fight is from Obi Wans point of view its Obi Wans perspective mindset. You seem to be misunderstanding what I'm trying to get at, Anakin wasn't wasn't weakened necessarily from that mind state and in fact that kind of rage gives people great power, but it was Obi Wan he was fighting someone who the books describes their relationship as "more intament then lovers" they knew each other like the back of the hand. The novel goes into detail about how well they knew each other.

Now the difference between Anakin in that mind state and his other is obvious, look at the differences between his behavior in both duels respectively, in the Dooku duel his pissed off and focused, his mind is crystal clear (as the novel says) all his fears and rage are being projected outwards in the duel. And in turn he utterly shits on Dooku.

Then look at his duel with Obi Wan where as he himself says in ROVD that he was "between worlds" he was doubting himself as I showed in the passage in my last post and thought his best friend and his wife were fvcking each other. And in this duel he performance lacks because of the emotion, he flais around like a berserker and takes stupid risks and ends up getting hacked up.

For example, Luke was fighting in a rage and managed to completely dominate Vader during the latter part of their duel. Unless it¡¦s implicitly hinted by the author in the fight that the fear actually had a negative impact on his fighting skill, I will withhold judgment.

And then we have Vader who was taken by surprise and half assing the duel with Luke, unlike Vader Obi Wan had the edge of training and knowing his "berserker" foe inside and out more intimately then a lover. Its a very clear logical deduction to assume that Anakin was hindered by his fear/rage. Just look at the detail Stover goes out of his way to place on the Dooku fight about Anakins rage, has focused and how clear it is.

At least Bane¡¦s wanker was still intact at the end of it all. The orbalisks obviously heightened his libido and sexual prowess by virtue of the whole ¡§continuously pumping adrenaline and strength¡¨ thing.

Did I just say that? I feel sad now. ƒ¼

lol

This clearly means that Bane was able to understand the disadvantages associated with each of the seven forms of lightsaber fighting, more impressively, against somebody who achieved the near perfection in each form.

Again your assuming Kas'im simple stood there switched forms at his leisure and displayed them to Bane, which is kinda silly, based on the description of the first part of the fight he was running, flipping and parrying, the only forms it appears that he was using would be Soresu, Ataru and Niman. And maybe a bit of Makashi. What your assuming he did was this:

"Hey Bane look at this" *goes into Djem So*

That gets owned

"Well how bout this" *switches to Shii Cho*

That gets owned

ect ect...

And then we have the fact that he is fighting someone using a Double Bladed saver, and the movements for the DBS are NOWHERE near the same as a single saber users would be. Also all his fights he's ever been in were against foes using a DBL, Sirak, and Kas'im.

So wow Bane can defend against a DBL users. Good job that will do him in a fight with a single blade user.

Which speaks nothing for their lack of education. Even Anakin did not know how to produce sith lightning. That Sirak, knew, in itself speaks for the competence of their trainers. Either way, its irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Yeah because Anakin was a sith for a whole what 8 hours before he got hacked up.

Self-trained? Where in PoD is this mentioned. Bane self trained himself, as was expected, but the other students seemed to be getting normal instruction.

"Those who showed promise the individuals who elevated themselves above the others were rewarded. They received one on one instruction with the masters to reach their full potential."

That was it if they didn't show any real promise they weren't taught beyond basic Lightsaber instruction with Kas'im. Proof of which is when Bane was in his slump they masters neglected him and ignored him. Why? Because he was weak. Thus he began to teach himself. Then we have the fact that only the most promising students like Githany and Sirak were monopolizing the time of the masters and that only they were learning basic powers like Force Lightning.

And? Maul was Sidious¡¦s loyal lapdog. Dooku wanked off to Sidious every opportunity he could get. How does this speak ill of their martial prowess?

It doesn't I just wanted to ***** about the BoD.

Against who? Hoth? He was the best Jedi around at the time. Farfalla? Again, tied for tops.

At the first battle of Ruusan Kaan faces and is overwhelmed in a BM duel with a Jedi, Kopecz kills the Jedi, though. And where does it say Hoth and hooves were the best Jedi around?

Hardly. Considering the only person he was truly afraid of was Bane, how do you come to the conclusion that he was in general a coward?

The only thing he was afraid of was losing his power.

"Kaan looked like a man gone mad

He was pacing quickly up and down the length of the tent, his steps uneven and erratic. He was hunched over nearly double, muttering to himself shaking his head. His left hand constantly strayed up to tug on a strand of his hair, then quickly jerked down as if it had been caught in some forbidden act....For a brief moment his eyes showed wild panic: they burned with the fear and desperation of a caged animal."

He was in general a nut job who was scared of anything stronger then himself (Bane) or anything that threatened his hold on the Brotherhood.

What does who they recruit at the very most desperate stage of the battle reflect on their martial prowess before they started their long war?

Because somehow 26 dark lords managed to own hundreds of Jedi in the Army of Light, also they haven't done anything remotely impressive at all aside from in fighting, recruiting kids. Name one thing impressive ANYONE from the NSO era Jedi has doen.

Argh…not this again. If he were non force sensitive, how was he able to perform spider man leaps, train Raine on how to use the force, and defeat a 7-ft tall marauder trained in the force? He was also dominating against Bug (a known sensitive) in their duel. Githany herself could see the force in him, the same person who noticed Bane’s potential despite him closing himself from the darkside.

Yes this again, then we have a very big paradox if he is now a force user. Let me ask you when the thought bomb went off why wasn't he harmed? Especially when Bug was standing two feet from him was drained. Who else do we see un affected by the TB? Random Republic non force sensitive soldier #4. Then Darovit screams about how he should die too cause he has the force.

He was able to perform leaps because its a comic and he was probably in good shape, I can do a back flip too big deal.

He was able to teach Rain to use the force because really how hard is it to say "Hey put your hand out a focus"

He was able to kill the Maruder because they utterly suck ass

He was able to beat Bug because he was a kid and too utterly sucked ass.

Had he had the force he would have died with everyone else.

This is not proving the martial weakness of their orders. They were engaged in an incredibly long war where both sides suffered from extreme casualties. As a result, the Sith needed to squeeze every last drop of force sensitive into combat to give them even the slightest edge. The Jedi wanted to protect the children by recruiting them onto their side. At midpoint during their war, neither side had to resort to such underhanded tactics as their respective were far stronger and energized.

A child kills a 7ft tall maruder...they sucked.

Is their proof that Grievous was actually weaker in a combat sense.? Malak lost a jaw, yet that didn’t negatively impact his fighting prowess. Grievous isn’t even an organic creature (of which heart is necessarily to get the blood moving and oxygen pumping to muscles.) The fact that he was able to defeat Grievous indicates a strong enough connection to the force. That was what, it would seem, which enabled him to win.

I always thought his hacking and wheezing was a indication of his weakness from the attack. Or maybe it was his skill and style, custom tailored to beat Grevious.

I don’t understand what you mean by “building” up force energy. I understand the fact that Bane was using the force to augment his speed (like every other damn force user doees), but the book never says that he needs to build up force energy in order to move at supernatural speeds. It states that he was controlling the desire to use his full power on Sirak, because he wanted to toy with him first.

"When the Zabraks desperation turned to hopelessness, every impulse in Bane screamed with the desire to take the initiative and end the fight. Instead he let the tantalizing closeness of Siraks defeat feed his appetite for vengeance. The hunger grew with each passing second until it became physical pain tearing away at his insides: [I]The dark side filled him and he felt it on the verge of ripping him apart, splitting his skin and gushing out like a fountain of black blood"

"He waited till the last possible second before unleashing the energy bottled up inside him in a tremendous rush of power. He channeled it through his muscles and limbs, moving so fast it seemed as if time had stopped to the rest of the world....The fury and focus that had turned him into a conduit of the dark side's unstoppable power was gone , replaced by hyperconcious awareness of his physical surroundings." - PoD pg 171[/I]

Well he actually sees the last bits of the combat. Anakin was moving in and we see Mace and Sidious, dueling, and finally Sidious falling on the floor. At that moment, Anakin was moving through the doorway leading into the room, so we are led to believe that he could see the ending part of the duel. The quote is far from invalid. Sidious could kill three masters in the blink of an eye, one of which was nearly at Kenobi’s level, he is beyond Anakin.

Ok.

That doesn’t seem similar to a force storm at all. The effects weren’t described in the same light as a force storm, in that it in no way, shape or form resembles a wormhole. In fact it takes specific ingredients (that slug creature) as well as Palpatine placing himself in a vulnerable position to accomplish. And as per Gideon, and from my own observations, the attack affected the morale of the Jedi. Its effects resemble battle meditation over the force storm Palpatine demonstrated in DE.

Did I call it a force storm? I don't recall I did. But I was pointing out that Sidious even during that time had that kind of extreme power, simultaneously influencing every Jedi around the galaxy, is EXTREMELY impressive, then his use of the lighting was a side affect.

What I am NOT saying that an older duelist would do worse than a younger duelist. What I am saying is that if an older duelist were given a more youthful body, he would do better then if he were in a decrepit body. Especially when said user’s refinement in the force was more, how shall I put it, “fine tuned.”

Ok.

That was as per Empire’s end, not by ROTS. It was a random opinion of a fallible sith spirit as well. In fact, others were criticizing him on his audacity to appear before them.

The power was the same.

Originally posted by zephiel7
I would not call a sourcebook to DE valid by today’s standards, [b]especially [/i] given the publication of BOTS, POD, and the movie’s own rendition of Sidious’ power.

BOTS and POD, by actual evidence and not simply hyperbole supports its quotes putting Bane on top of Sidious as of ROTS. If the quote that puts Sidious on top is not supported by evidence [b]within the mythos, then it is simply an unsupported quote. Unless I can see these quotes properly backed, they remain what they are, hyperbole. If it contradicts the highest form of canon on Palpatine’s capabilities, I consider it hyperbole.

As per the highest form of canon, Lucas’ own Revenge of the Sith, Palpatine’s power does not match a person of say, Revan, Kun’s, or Bane’s caliber. He has shown some simple TK (throwing pods downwards which would be easy considering gravity), and some abilities in force lightning. And he was fighting against his mortal enemy at the time. There is no reason why he is performing at anything less than his full power. Even the novel’s elaboration doesn’t put Palpatine any higher than the movie depicted.


Absence of proof isn't proof of absence. We have several sources that DO put Palpatine above Bane as of or before ROTs...just because he doesn't fly around the galaxy vapoizing cities doesn't mean a thing. Unless Lucas's movies specifically stated Palpatine CANNOT do so and so or Palpatine was NOT stronger than so and so...invalid.

It's not hyperbole. No matter how much you wish it to be. They don't need to be 'backed properly' to some insane standard. They were officially published by LFL and Palpatine displayed his power in numerous areas.

The case is closed there. You have no grounds to declare what is and what is not valid

Didn't the DSSB and the UVG call Sidious at the very least, the greatest of Bane's order, as of TPM?

Well let's see, in RotS, Sidious quite clearly showed himself to be slightly weaker than Yoda in their lightning exchange at the end. This was the same Yoda that struggled with lifting a crane in AotC (shaking, almost falling over, had to put on his mean face to pull off a the feat, and still only just did it). Now in comparison to people like Bane, who can casually affect a moon, something roughly a gazillion times heavier than that crane that Yoda struggled with, while riding on top of a flying beast, RotS Palpatine is nothing.

You do realize that GL made the movies to be a little more realistic than all the books and comics you see of people throwing stars and what not? It doesn't matter WHAT he showed or didn't show, because you're not going to have people instakill each other for a reason. ROTS Sidious is already #1, this is a fact. I don't like it myself but I accept it because it is fact, do not argue with canon or you will continue to embarass yourself.