Darth Vader versus Darth Bane

BOTS and POD, by actual evidence and not simply hyperbole supports its quotes putting Bane on top of Sidious as of ROTS. If the quote that puts Sidious on top is not supported by evidence within the mythos, then it is simply an unsupported quote. Unless I can see these quotes properly backed, they remain what they are, hyperbole. If it contradicts the highest form of canon on Palpatine’s capabilities, I consider it hyperbole.

Uh no there not no matter how much you wish them to be untrue if a source book thats valid says it its fact, We've never seen Kun use force lighting yet the DSSB says he is a master of lighting, is that hyperbole? No.

As per the highest form of canon, Lucas’ own Revenge of the Sith, Palpatine’s power does not match a person of say, Revan, Kun’s, or Bane’s caliber. He has shown some simple TK (throwing pods downwards which would be easy considering gravity), and some abilities in force lightning. And he was fighting against his mortal enemy at the time. There is no reason why he is performing at anything less than his full power. Even the novel’s elaboration doesn’t put Palpatine any higher than the movie depicted.

Your saying this like he was supposed to use "Random Sith power" #338 on Yoda, lets look at the ones you posted in challenge to ROTS Sidious,

Kun: When in his only 2 major duels of his life time he uses surprisingly NO force powers, even though he had those 1337 amulet blasts he doesn't use them against Ulic.

Revan: In his one proven lightsaber duel we have no clue what happened, when he was surrounded by 4 Jedi he didn't use one force power aside from choking some officer.

Bane: In his two Light saber duels he does force speed and a force push at the very end.

DE Sidious vs Luke: No force powers are used till the storm.

Why didn't they use there "Ubah sith powass!" because there foes are powerful enough to have there full attention focused on the duel. Then we have the fact that Yoda is the most powerful Jedi in existence till Luke, really how much of his random powers would work on him?

AC, are you joking? You’re very own quote serves to emphasize that Palpatine was the strongest Sith of modern times. Seeing as how Bane is a good millennia before “modern”, I consider the quote irrelevant.

"Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting."

- Page 72 of the Complete Visual Guide

In fact, DK makes it a point to emphasize the temple was in fine condition. “The stone was neither worn nor cracked despite its age.” Clearly there was some supernatural force permeating and keeping the temple in fine condition.

Didn't see that...I concede the point.

We have on one hand, possibilities that were not even explored or hinted by Anderson, which you seem to tend towards to downplay Bane. Then we have the possibility which Anderson seems more favourable towards, and which seems the most plausible. Clearly it is the most logical conclusion. What you are effectively doing, AC, is leading us into “wild goose chases” on what Bane “might” have done, when a simpler and clearer option is presented to us by Anderson.

Again, no prove how Bane did it, prove it was this spectacular feat your making it out to be, he could have moved the atmospheres together centimeters passing out for a week then getting up and moving them again till they merged. You can't prove how he did it so the feat is disregarded.

Bane was savoring his soon to be victory against Sirak, not “gathering energy” as you seem to believe.

“Bane probably knew he could probably beat Sirak now…. he’d never leave himself exposed the way Bane had. Not at first. Not unless Bane somehow lured him.”

“Yet even though he was battling the Zabrak, Bane’s real struggle was with himself. Time and again, he had to pull back to keep from lunging through an opening…”

He was controlling his desire (that is unleashing his blinding speed). He wanted to humiliate Sirak first, before utterly destroying him. The rest of the passage details how hungry he was for the need to destroy Sirak, not that he had to gather energy at all.

Kas’im even later emphasizes on Bane’s technique, stating how he was keeping his true strength “hidden,” not that he had to gather it up or anything of the sort.

See above.

But by the end of PoD, Bane has seen almost all forms of dueling, and observed it from someone who devoted his life to honing every skill in the lightsaber, one of the strongest duelists in the galaxy. Vader is not going to have more options than someone who dedicated decades mastering every ligthsaber form.

Again prove he switched up and showed him every form from Shii Cho to Juyo, and again Big Whoop Kas'im uses a DBL the movements are completely different from a SBL. Also Vader has seen MUCH more styles then Bane, its says in ROVD he burrows aspects from ALL forms of combat to create his style.

Bane’s capabilities in the force outshine Vader’s as per the ending of BOTS and POD. Vader’s abilities were never fully recognized. If it’s OT Vader, he had his abilities greatly reduced from falling into lava. If it is ROTS Anakin, he still has not reached all his potential since Obi Wan was able to use Soresu effectively to slice him into pieces. In fact, as per the highest form of canon, Vader doesn’t even know how to manipulate lightning. His abilities have all been instinctual, and hence cannot be relegated to a specific combat scenario. Bane is not going to have as much difficulty as Kenobi, he is far less predictable and far more powerful in the force.

Based on what? Him blowing up a temple? Anakin has knocked down statue in the Jedi Temple with the flick of his hand, Vader has toppled trees almost the size of mountain sides with a hand gesture.

ROTS Anakin is superior to Bane in everyway from his force connection, to lightsaber skills, to his experience, He was one of the most powerful Jedi ever and in his "Crystal Clear" Mindstate he would utterly ass rape mostly anyone let alone Bane.

ROTS Anakin is NOT anywhere near Bane in force abilities. Not at that point.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
You do realize that GL made the movies to be a little more realistic than all the books and comics you see of people throwing stars and what not? It doesn't matter WHAT he showed or didn't show, because you're not going to have people instakill each other for a reason. ROTS Sidious is already #1, this is a fact. I don't like it myself but I accept it because it is fact, do not argue with canon or you will continue to embarass yourself.

*Not that I believe that there is actually a single absolute quote declaring any incarnation of Palpatine as the most powerful sith ever up until his time, I'll work under the assumption that there is, purely for the sake of argument.

The EU has sith displaying much more power than Sidious does in the movies, and we can quite clearly see the upper limit of Sidious' power when he fails to overpower Yoda at the end. Yet these different reference guides declare Palpatine the most powerful sith ever, even during the fricking PT period. So clearly there is a contradiction here; the movies are the highest form of canon, and so there are two ways of looking at it.

1. The EU material that has other sith clearly being more powerful than PT Sidious contradicts the idea that Sidious was the most powerful up until his time, and so contradicting aspects inside said material is rendered N Canon.

2. The different reference guides that detail PT Palpatine as being the most powerful sith ever contradicts the movie's display of Sidious in comparison to displays of earlier sith lords, and thus contradictory aspects inside these reference guides are rendered N Canon.

IN-STORY source material takes precedence over reference guide material, and so route 2 is the correct option to take. In other words, these 'canon' quotes are clearly just wrong, and can't be used in debates.

i guess by your logic bane is a pussy because he doesnt appear in the movies and it contradicts the fact that bane is dead by the movies is it?

Originally posted by allfg
I know im gay

The EU has sith displaying much more power than Sidious does in the movies, and we can quite clearly see the upper limit of Sidious' power when he fails to overpower Yoda at the end. Yet these different reference guides declare Palpatine the most powerful sith ever, even during the fricking PT period. So clearly there is a contradiction here; the movies are the highest form of canon, and so there are two ways of looking at it.

No theres one way of looking at it: Sidious WAS the most powerful Sith ever by at least AOTC, your talking like Yoda is some kind of pathetic weakling, when in reality he'd ass rape any of previous Sith from any other era (save probably Nihlius), Yoda was the most powerful being the lightside of the force had to represent it till Luke (with Revan being the only one even coming close), tieing in power with that especially being 600 or so years his lesser is EXTREMELY impressive.

IN-STORY source material takes precedence over reference guide material, and so route 2 is the correct option to take. In other words, these 'canon' quotes are clearly just wrong, and can't be used in debates.

And in story he's still the most powerful, whether you like it or not, as others have said just because Lucas didn't have them throwing stars at each other, doing DBZ blasts and other random useless feats doesn't make them all of a sudden sub par to the EU guys. Especially when you consider the fact that EVERY previously listed Sith Lord who you claim as "teh leetness" don't even display there feats in actual combat as I said:

Your saying this like he was supposed to use "Random Sith power" #338 on Yoda:

Kun: When in his only 2 major duels of his life time he uses surprisingly NO force powers, even though he had those 1337 amulet blasts he doesn't use them against Ulic or Vodo(not that he needed them against the scrub).

Revan: In his one totally proved lightsaber duel (Malak) we have no clue what happened, when he was surrounded by 4 Jedi he didn't use one force power aside from choking some officer.

Bane: In his two Light saber duels he does force speed once against a foe who never stood a chance to begin with, force choked a loser apprentice and a force pushed the Temple at the very end of the Kas'im fight when they weren't even engaged in a duel.

DE Sidious vs Luke: No offensive force powers are used till the storm.

The point why is Sidious faulted for not using these random powers when his predecessors who you have a homo erotic love for (Bane) don't even do it?

Originally posted by allfg
*Not that I believe that there is actually a single absolute quote declaring any incarnation of Palpatine as the most powerful sith ever up until his time, I'll work under the assumption that there is, purely for the sake of argument.

The EU has sith displaying much more power than Sidious does in the movies, and we can quite clearly see the upper limit of Sidious' power when he fails to overpower Yoda at the end. Yet these different reference guides declare Palpatine the most powerful sith ever, even during the fricking PT period. So clearly there is a contradiction here; the movies are the highest form of canon, and so there are two ways of looking at it.

1. The EU material that has other sith clearly being more powerful than PT Sidious contradicts the idea that Sidious was the most powerful up until his time, and so contradicting aspects inside said material is rendered N Canon.

2. The different reference guides that detail PT Palpatine as being the most powerful sith ever contradicts the movie's display of Sidious in comparison to displays of earlier sith lords, and thus contradictory aspects inside these reference guides are rendered N Canon.

IN-STORY source material takes precedence over reference guide material, and so route 2 is the correct option to take. In other words, these 'canon' quotes are clearly just wrong, and can't be used in debates. [/B]

*Puts Darth SexPest on ignore list.
AC, you've gotten what I've been saying completely wrong. I'm not saying that because Yoda and Sidious never showed awesome abilities in the PT times, that it wasn't within their power. Absence of proof /= proof of absence, I know that, but the things is, we can actually get a rough estimate of the upper limit of Yoda's power in AotC: when he struggled with lifting that crane that Dooku brought down at the end of their duel; his hands and whole body was shaking, he had to put on his mean face to even pull off the feat, he almost lost balance and fell over, and he only just managed to push the crane aside so it wouldn't fall on Anakin and Obi-Wan. Now in comparison to Bane, Revan, and Kun etc., that's a pretty pathetic display of force power, and given the effort he put in, and how badly he struggled, we can assume that the upper limit of his power isn't much higher than that one display. Now the fact that Sidious proved himself to be around equal (even if he was better, it was only just) with Yoda, we can safely assume that RotS Sidious is pretty far below them too.

Originally posted by allfg
*Puts Darth SexPest on ignore list.
AC, you've gotten what I've been saying completely wrong. I'm not saying that because Yoda and Sidious never showed awesome abilities in the PT times, that it wasn't within their power. Absence of proof /= proof of absence, I know that, but the things is, we can actually get a rough estimate of the upper limit of Yoda's power in AotC: when he struggled with lifting that crane that Dooku brought down at the end of their duel; his hands and whole body was shaking, he had to put on his mean face to even pull off the feat, he almost lost balance and fell over, and he only just managed to push the crane aside so it wouldn't fall on Anakin and Obi-Wan. Now in comparison to Bane, Revan, and Kun etc., that's a pretty pathetic display of force power, and given the effort he put in, and how badly he struggled, we can assume that the upper limit of his power isn't much higher than that one display. Now the fact that Sidious proved himself to be around equal (even if he was better, it was only just) with Yoda, we can safely assume that RotS Sidious is pretty far below them too.

Translation: I've been owned yet again for the millionth time but I will continue to argue against canon and logic because I want to and because it helps me sleep at night. I expect to get banned and ridiculed but I'm too much in denial to realize how stupid I am.

Good one Noobaris.

Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Translation: I've been owned yet again for the millionth time but I will continue to argue against canon and logic because I want to and because it helps me sleep at night. I expect to get banned and ridiculed but I'm too much in denial to realize how stupid I am.

Good one Noobaris.

😆

AC, you've gotten what I've been saying completely wrong. I'm not saying that because Yoda and Sidious never showed awesome abilities in the PT times, that it wasn't within their power. Absence of proof /= proof of absence, I know that, but the things is, we can actually get a rough estimate of the upper limit of Yoda's power in AotC: when he struggled with lifting that crane that Dooku brought down at the end of their duel; his hands and whole body was shaking, he had to put on his mean face to even pull off the feat, he almost lost balance and fell over, and he only just managed to push the crane aside so it wouldn't fall on Anakin and Obi-Wan. Now in comparison to Bane, Revan, and Kun etc., that's a pretty pathetic display of force power, and given the effort he put in, and how badly he struggled, we can assume that the upper limit of his power isn't much higher than that one display. Now the fact that Sidious proved himself to be around equal (even if he was better, it was only just) with Yoda, we can safely assume that RotS Sidious is pretty far below them too.

Whoa there mate. I am afraid I disagree with you here.

The Movies:

D'abord, one of the sole purposes of the Star Wars films is for the entertainment of the viewers. Parce'que of this, much actions and plots of the movies are for the enjoyment of the audience. For example, Darth Sidious is the strongest Sith Lord (it has been proven) and Yoda is the strongest Jedi that has so far been seen. In the fight scene between them, if you actually take the powers of these two and pit them against each other, it will be at blazing speeds with incredible Force moves. However, swordfighter actors cannot perform such stunts, since basically they are not Jedi and they cannot use the Force. And again, they cannot “speed” up the fight using computers because then the spectators cannot properly take pleasure in the motion picture.

Even if your precious Bane was placed in Yoda’s stead, he wouldn’t be at tremendously blazing speeds and in combat he cannot move his moons around. He will be portrayed lesser than Palps in a movie, because he's weaker and he cannot be made to stronger than Sidious.

How is Yoda pathetic in that scene? He was engaged in a duel with Dooku, and was performing an aerial attack on him when Tyrannus crushed the base of a gigantic pillar, which was coming down at high speeds on Obi-Wan and Anakin. Yoda had to break himself from the attack, catch the pillar, basically lift it and throw it away at a proper distance to prevent any forms of harm and destruction.

And please, Yoda is an old warrior, he’s not physically beefed up to throw mountains without catching his breath. He needs a breather after just locking blades with Dooku, but even then, his physical strength doesn’t matter as he is able to survive in the duel against Palpatine in the Senate Chamber.

Whoa there mate. I am afraid I disagree with you here.

The Movies:

D'abord, one of the sole purposes of the Star Wars films is for the entertainment of the viewers. Parce'que of this, much actions and plots of the movies are for the enjoyment of the audience. For example, Darth Sidious is the strongest Sith Lord (it has been proven) and Yoda is the strongest Jedi that has so far been seen. In the fight scene between them, if you actually take the powers of these two and pit them against each other, it will be at blazing speeds with incredible Force moves. However, swordfighter actors cannot perform such stunts, since basically they are not Jedi and they cannot use the Force. And again, they cannot “speed” up the fight using computers because then the spectators cannot properly take pleasure in the motion picture.

Even if your precious Bane was placed in Yoda’s stead, he wouldn’t be at tremendously blazing speeds and in combat he cannot move his moons around. He will be portrayed lesser than Palps in a movie, because he's weaker and he cannot be made to stronger than Sidious.

These are all explanations from the context of being outside the story. The fact is, the movies are what they are, and they're the highest form of canon, so you have to accept that. It's nice to blame choreography and Lucas' intentions etc., but they don't really mean anything given what we're actually debating.

How is Yoda pathetic in that scene? He was engaged in a duel with Dooku, and was performing an aerial attack on him when Tyrannus crushed the base of a gigantic pillar, which was coming down at high speeds on Obi-Wan and Anakin. Yoda had to break himself from the attack, catch the pillar, basically lift it and throw it away at a proper distance to prevent any forms of harm and destruction.

I've taken all of that into consideration, however the display, in my eyes, is still pretty pathetic compared to stuff that Bane, Kun, Revan, Nihilus etc. have done. Bane for one, in that position, would have likely been able to jump up and chucked the crane at Dooku in a heartbeat, given the power and mastery he has displayed by BotS.

And please, Yoda is an old warrior, he’s not physically beefed up to throw mountains without catching his breath. He needs a breather after just locking blades with Dooku, but even then, his physical strength doesn’t matter as he is able to survive in the duel against Palpatine in the Senate Chamber.

These are all excuses. So what if he's old? He is, and you have to accept that. It's not like he's going to be young for the purpose of debate.

These are all explanations from the context of being outside the story. The fact is, the movies are what they are, and they're the highest form of canon, so you have to accept that. It's nice to blame choreography and Lucas' intentions etc., but they don't really mean anything given what we're actually debating.

Err...okay.....wonderful, Sidious is still the most powerful Sith Lord there is. And what I have said is true, but that is one of the sole purposes of movies: entertainment.

I've taken all of that into consideration, however the display, in my eyes, is still pretty pathetic compared to stuff that Bane, Kun, Revan, Nihilus etc. have done. Bane for one, in that position, would have likely been able to jump up and chucked the crane at Dooku in a heartbeat, given the power and mastery he has displayed by BotS.

Oh rly, how? By moving a moon!!!???

These are all excuses. So what if he's old? He is, and you have to accept that. It's not like he's going to be young for the purpose of debate.

This was to prove that his shakiness and him getting tired doesn't matter, seeing how long he lasted against Sidious in the Senate Chamber.

Man, aren't YOU an embarassment to mankind Noobaris.

Excuse me?

Noobaris, not you.

Oh sry I read that totally wrong.

Let's just continue this at DS's forum, this moron is really starting to become a tad bit annoying.

Go ahead noobaris, you've been laughed off of this forum forever. It's time you take the hint and embarass yourself somewhere else.

Let's just continue this at DS's forum, this moron is really starting to become a tad bit annoying.

Whichever environment you feel comfortable to argue in, just I have to go do my homework right now, so I really don't the have time to argue this now. However make the thread still at Ultimate Star Wars.