The Phoenix Force vs. Eternity

Originally posted by Lord S
In conclusion, my good friend...you're wrong. Always have been. Earlier, I asked you to yield...now I'm demanding it!

You're not as smart as you think you are...we can all see right through you. All you're good for his light-hearted humour through smilies and over-use of the words 'sonny', 'friend', 'young friend', etc, and cheap, yet ultra-devious, image tricks. Ie: LT (and the abstracts) bowing down to Phoenix...you may have fooled the very intelligent Xplosive, but not the rest of us. You're a fraud, GS...you laid out your credentials, (or lack thereof), in your very first appearance on this board...arguing vehemently in favour of Storm, against Dr. Doom. rolleyes1

So take a seat, grasshopper.

Oh dear oh dear old timer. Your driving need to get one over me has lead you to take leave of your senses it would appear.

Not able to take me down one on one as you tried many a time in the beginning, you appear to have hitched a ride with these youngsters in a valiant attempt to achieve what will forever be for you the nigh impossible. 🙁

Ive provided evidence clearly stating the points I have been trying to make.

Phoenix is the Big Bang? Check

Big Bang is another name for the Phoenix Force? Check

All energy in the closed marvel universes derive from their Big Bangs? Check

Galactus was made who he is by the energies of the Big Bang? Check

The Abstracts as aspects of the universe are tied to the power of Phoenix? Check

Is GS happy with this result? Mildly. 😬

Why? 😕

Foregone conclusion. 😱

Ciao wavey

Originally posted by Cosmic Cube
Phoenix Threads = Gi-normous posts

✅

ok, i've stayed away from PF discussions for a long while, because i've never been too sure of the PF myself. but from this and other discussions, here are a couple things that i think HAVE been suitably born out:

1. i think the universes have been clearly shown to be closed systems.

2. i think gs has showed a number of sources that link the PF to the big bang -- to deny that link really denies a great number of sources of on-panel evidence. are there discrepancies? of course. there will ALWAYS be discrepancies and exceptions. that's why NO ONE can come up with a single theory that links everything together, and why debates like this one will NEVER be completely ended. opponents will constantly exhibit the exceptions. but gs has -- imo -- shown enough credible evidence linking the PF and the big bang.

3. the PF permeates the universe in the form of life, as it has been able to draw upon FUTURE life as a source of power, while at the same time NEGATING that same future life by expending that power.

4. within each universe the PF is a universal force.

there are some logical implications of these points:

1. the PF is responsible for the getting a universe started -- each big bang is proof to me that the PF can start/create a universe. by accepting this, it is alos clear that the PF as a WHOLE is a mutliversal entity, while each individual piece of the force is only UNIVERSAL.

2. the PF INDIRECTLY is responsible for supplying energy that leads to whatever comes to exist within a universe. that is its ROLE. but here things get a little . . . hairy for me. things can be looked at in a couple of ways.

when a bomb explodes, the match that lights the flame that consumes the fuse is ALSO indirectly responsible for the explosive power of the bomb, but is not in any way the accumulated 'power' of the bomb. the other way to look at it is to say the PF is literally the bomb itself. i THINK gs, you are implying the latter? i think evidence exists to see it EITHER way, actually, depending on your penchant. and who you're rooting for in the debate. 😄

a sort of alternate thought i've considered is this: eternity is the sentience of the universe -- it is literally the life essence of the universe. can the PF's role simply be to grant the universe sentience at the moment of the big bang? in that way, the PF literally IS the spark that leads to all life, as embodied by eternity. there is NO on-panel evidence, it's just a thought. the PF grants life (it has repeatedly been linked to life) -- what more vital role than granting life to the universe itself?

to be honest, i'm just not comfortable saying that the PF is essentially the energy that makes up EVERYTHING, mainly because of the fact that it has been so closely associated with LIFE. but, if it grants LIFE to eternity, then i can see WHY it is so closely associated with all life in the universe.

lastly:

within each universe i don't think the PF needs to exceed eternity in role or hierarchy, any more than my father is above me in any hierarchy. the PF may very well be at only galactus levels inside a universe, but like g is able to draw on even greater power, but at even greater costs. because an avatar and the force ITSELF that manifests WITHIN a universe only has access to the UNIVERSAL force (which represents life, as opposed to ALL universal energy), and because the avatars are only mortal, it stands to reason it could be defeated by sufficiently powerful foes, making it's 'losses' very understandable to me. unlike eternity though, and the other universal abstracts, the PF IS a multiversal force -- its energies are used throughout the multiverse -- and so in the grand scheme, though each individual force<eternity, the ROLE of the force>any individual eternity.

meh. that's mostly what i've taken out of all these discussions. 🙂 and please do NOT tell me i'm a fanboy, or a gs sock, or gullible or just stupid. i've LONG lingered on the fence and been unable to come to any real conclusions on the PF. i STILL don't agree with everything gs has said in the past, but i don't have to to understand where he's coming from, or, more importantly, to fashion my OWN opinion about the PF.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Shows nothing but the Phoenix Force and talks about her as ONE OF THE PRIMAL FORCES. Nice try, but how is that proof of creating the universe?

She doesnt stand by emit some energy and create the universe. Im not saying she does, im not painting her as God, thats where your misunderstanding seems to arise from. Im saying that Phoenix is literally the energies of creation as that scan clearly states, so when she resurrects herself when she is reborn it happens as the Big Bang. We've seen scans stating Phoenix is the Big Bang. With seen scans of Phoenix being reborn in the Big Bang event. We've seen scans saying Phoenix perpetuates this cycle she actually determines her rebirth and when the universe will end and that is the crux of the matter because those actions result in the creation of the universe from herself. Therefore Phoenix is very much responsible for the creation of 616.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
What's this useless scan prove? That was after the Force got owned. And there was no avatar, so either show scans from the issue indicating so or shut up about it.

That scan says it all. Ive posted scans saying that the firebird is an expression of the life force of reality. The very energies of life expressed in reality. This scan is in line with that saying that this firebird is a flame from the Big Bang which continuity dictates is the Phoenix Force.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
I guess this sums it up already, Phoenix powers the abstract and created Galactus. 🙄 All you've given is this and that. When has Galactus or any abstract made such a reference? Nice assumption but that's only an assumption.

The abstracts embody universal concepts and access the forces of the universe. As a closed system all power within any given universe comes from its Big Bang. The Big Bang is Phoenix. Eternity cedits Phoenix for recreating him after the end of the last cycle. Watcher said the Phoenix perpetuates the cycle as did the Stranger, plus the captions of various comics ive posted.

Galactus was transformed into who he is by the Big Bang. We know what that is in continuity. We have an on panel source making the direct connection, a source stating that the energies that transformed Galactus are the Phoenix Force.

GAME OVER!!!!!!!!!

I disagree with almost everything galacticstorm has asserted regarding the Phoenix Force. Everytime he states that the Phoenix Force literally is the Big Bang, I keep looking at those scans he posts and they almost always refer to the Phoenix Force as the spark of creation, etc. I've never seen a single scan stating that the Big Bang is literally the Phoenix Force flaring out, sacrificing its own energies to provide the energy and matter that consitutes the universe.

Reeds' words are at best, an ambiguous description to Johnny Storm about the nature of cosmic rays. Energies from the Big Bang, spark of creation, Phoenix Force... they're all interchangeable to him. But you would interpret that to mean he considered every erg of energy from the Big Bang to be the singular Phoenix Force. That assumption is totally unsupported. He was more likely referencing some of the energies of the Big Bang, not the entire sum. Therefore, some of the energies of the Big Bang = the Phoenix Force. Which energies? The energies of "the perpetuation of life." I'll describe that later on.

This distinction that I'm trying to draw is made even more clear when you continue to interpret the Phoenix Force as the entire sum of the energy of the universe. If that is true, how can the Phoenix Force exist at the same time as the universe exists? If the Phoenix Force is the Big Bang in its entirety and the Big Bang happened, isn't the Phoenix Force gone? Converted entirely into matter and energy that exists in the universe? That clearly isn't so, we've seen the Phoenix Force operate separate from the universe. This argument is very similar to the ones you and leonidas made against Mr Master about Eternity: "If Eternity is the totality of the universe, how can he exist inside the universe?" Same thing: "If Phoenix Force is the totality of the universe, how can it exist and operate anywhere else without snuffing out the universe itself?"

Now granted all this, I have a theory that I believe squares the relation of the Phoenix Force, the sum total of matter and energy in the universe and the Big Bang itself: The Phoenix Force is the literal manifestation of life's propensity to perpetuate itself. Think of it as the cosmic entity that tells the universe, "Don't just end. Continue. Perpetuate. With an end, comes a new beginning. Let me help with a spark." Right now I'm channeling Grant Morrison's Phoenix dialogue. It's the exact same spirit and concept that Jean uses to prod Cyclops into not giving up. Phoenix Force does not provide the sum total base material that the universe is, it just convinces the universe to go on and provides the spark to allow the Big Bang to happen.

This theory squares with everybody's objection that the Pheonix Force is not the sum total of life. It squares with every on-panel instance that makes reference to the Phoenix Force as a resurrection force or a spark of creation. It also relates the Phoenix Force to the Big Bang. Without the Phoenix Force, there is no Big Bang, but it is not the Big Bang itself. The Phoenix Force is "life's propensity to perpetuate," without it, life would just end and that's it. One Big Bang, one Big Crunch and that's it, nothing after. If you want to go further than this, its not unreasonable to think that reproduction of organisms is a derivative of the Phoenix Force's influence on the universe. But it is not life itself.

This concept also allows the Phoenix Force to tie itself to the end of the universe. If the Phoenix Force operates as the instigation for life to continue via a cycle, it must also help to attend the end of the universe. This coincides with Galactus chastizing Phoenix for snuffing out potential life. If the Phoenix's true purpose is rebirth, every time it operates without a personal avatar, it indirectly forces the Phoenix Force's influence upon a universe not ready to die and be reborn yet. In that way, the Phoenix Force is indirectly nudging the universe to rebirth itself quicker, which results in an acceleration of the cycle causing potential life to be snuffed out.

Now what makes my interpretation superior to gs'? One, I believe its much easier to swallow. Two, you don't edge out all of the other traditional forces at play in the universe, like Death and Galactus (those who are supposed to bring about an End), or Eternity (the manifestation of the universe itself). With gs' Pheonix Force, these entities lose all meaning as mere shadows or silly self-adulating derivatives of the Phoenix Force. Three, I believe it is much more in the spirit of what a literal phoenix has always meant in literature. A phoenix in literature has never been seen as the sum total of life, the phoenix has always been the personification of life's propensity to perpetuate. It does this through a flare of life, a spark of creation. It is not life itself, it is not creation itself.

Originally posted by OneDumbG0
I disagree with almost everything galacticstorm has asserted regarding the Phoenix Force. Everytime he states that the Phoenix Force literally is the Big Bang, I keep looking at those scans he posts and they almost always refer to the Phoenix Force as the spark of creation, etc. I've never seen a single scan stating that the Big Bang is literally the Phoenix Force flaring out, sacrificing its own energies to provide the energy and matter that consitutes the universe.

Reeds' words are at best, an ambiguous description to Johnny Storm about the nature of cosmic rays. Energies from the Big Bang, spark of creation, Phoenix Force... they're all interchangeable to him. But you would interpret that to mean he considered every erg of energy from the Big Bang to be the singular Phoenix Force. That assumption is totally unsupported. He was more likely referencing some of the energies of the Big Bang, not the entire sum. Therefore, some of the energies of the Big Bang = the Phoenix Force. Which energies? The energies of "the perpetuation of life." I'll describe that later on.

This distinction that I'm trying to draw is made even more clear when you continue to interpret the Phoenix Force as the entire sum of the energy of the universe. If that is true, how can the Phoenix Force exist at the same time as the universe exists? If the Phoenix Force is the Big Bang in its entirety and the Big Bang happened, isn't the Phoenix Force gone? Converted entirely into matter and energy that exists in the universe? That clearly isn't so, we've seen the Phoenix Force operate separate from the universe. This argument is very similar to the ones you and leonidas made against Mr Master about Eternity: "If Eternity is the totality of the universe, how can he exist inside the universe?" Same thing: "If Phoenix Force is the totality of the universe, how can it exist and operate anywhere else without snuffing out the universe itself?"

Now granted all this, I have a theory that I believe squares the relation of the Phoenix Force, the sum total of matter and energy in the universe and the Big Bang itself: The Phoenix Force is the literal manifestation of life's propensity to perpetuate itself. Think of it as the cosmic entity that tells the universe, "Don't just end. Continue. Perpetuate. With an end, comes a new beginning. Let me help with a spark." Right now I'm channeling Grant Morrison's Phoenix dialogue. It's the exact same spirit and concept that Jean uses to prod Cyclops into not giving up. Phoenix Force does not provide the sum total base material that the universe is, it just convinces the universe to go on and provides the spark to allow the Big Bang to happen.

This theory squares with everybody's objection that the Pheonix Force is not the sum total of life. It squares with every on-panel instance that makes reference to the Phoenix Force as a resurrection force or a spark of creation. It also relates the Phoenix Force to the Big Bang. Without the Phoenix Force, there is no Big Bang, but it is not the Big Bang itself. The Phoenix Force is "life's propensity to perpetuate," without it, life would just end and that's it. One Big Bang, one Big Crunch and that's it, nothing after. If you want to go further than this, its not unreasonable to think that reproduction of organisms is a derivative of the Phoenix Force's influence on the universe. But it is not life itself.

This concept also allows the Phoenix Force to tie itself to the end of the universe. If the Phoenix Force operates as the instigation for life to continue via a cycle, it must also help to attend the end of the universe. This coincides with Galactus chastizing Phoenix for snuffing out potential life. If the Phoenix's true purpose is rebirth, every time it operates without a personal avatar, it indirectly forces the Phoenix Force's influence upon a universe not ready to die and be reborn yet. In that way, the Phoenix Force is indirectly nudging the universe to rebirth itself quicker, which results in an acceleration of the cycle causing potential life to be snuffed out.

Now what makes my interpretation superior to gs'? One, I believe its much easier to swallow. Two, you don't edge out all of the other traditional forces at play in the universe, like Death and Galactus (those who are supposed to bring about an End), or Eternity (the manifestation of the universe itself). With gs' Pheonix Force, these entities lose all meaning as mere shadows or silly self-adulating derivatives of the Phoenix Force. Three, I believe it is much more in the spirit of what a literal phoenix has always meant in literature. A phoenix in literature has never been seen as the sum total of life, the phoenix has always been the personification of life's propensity to perpetuate. It does this through a flare of life, a spark of creation. It is not life itself, it is not creation itself.

Now all that would be fine and dandy if it wasnt actually stated on panel plain as day that the Phoenix Force is a literal manifestation of the Big Bang.

If its avatar wasnt stated to be a literal flame from the Big Bang (which is therefore in line with the comments stating it to be the Big Bang

Theres just no getting away from that point.

Reed said the energies of creation are the Big Bang are the Phoenix Force. Youre speculating about what Reed could have meant when youre not justified in doing so because he made a direct statement. He never said it was this, it could possibly have been that. He said call the energies of creation the Big Bang or the Phoenix Force. He never said some of the energies of creation are the Phoenix Force he just said the energies of creation. He never said part of the Big Bang is the Force, he equated the two as many sources have. Your point on that matter is unsupported speculation as illustrated by your "he was most likely referencing" NO. He made a direct statement, it was not ambiguous in any way shape or form. Do not presume to talk for Reed in light of that.

As for your point about isnt the Big Bang the universe in its entirety? Yes youre quite right, which is why the Force doesnt manifest in its totalityas to do so would rob the universe of life energy and leave nothing but a void:

The Phoenix instead manifests part of its might via that familiar firebird avatar:

That firebird is an avatar, not the totality of the Force. It is an expression of the universal life force. In the same way that Black humanoid figure is just an Mbody of Eternity and not the totality of the universe, because how could the full universe appear within the universe? It cant. In the same way the full force cant manifest within reality without detrimental affects to reality.

We saw this point illustrated by Galactus. In its natural state the Phoenix is the ambient energy of life that saturates everything, however when this Phoenix takes on a consciousness it becomes a lifeform itself it starts to rechannel back this life energy which results in future generations being deprived of existence. That is why the Force when acting as a beneficient entity simply allows beings of the universe to host its power.

Your theory is just that. Im just pointing out whats actually stated on panel. Its stated that the Phoenix is literally the Big Bang manifest. Its stated that it IS the life force of reality on panel and in the bios

and its stated that the Phoenix is the SUM AND SUBSTANCE OF LIFE.

The firebird which is its avatar is stated to be an expression of the universal life force as it is the way the energies of creation manifests or expresses itself in reality.

It is illustrated that without the Force tied to reality, there be nothing but a VOID. That is tied with account that it is the sum and substance of life.

Your theory is unsupported and is just your way of making sense of those on panel accounts that you disagree with or don’t understand. The Phoenixes relationship with the energies of creation are stated on panel as clear as day, they are synonymous.

Youre right though. Phoenix is that which perpetuates the cycle, and without it there would just be a single constant state. However it perpetuates the cycle through birth and sacrifice. That is the way of the Phoenix as stated on panel. Its rebirth is the Big Bang event, that is how it jumpstarts creation, by seeding the void with life. It is the ambient energies of life that seep through every living thing. It consumes all to end the cycle, before being reborn.

what is the relationship between eternity and the big bang/PF? and what exactly is the 'cosmic egg'?

anyone . . . ?

Originally posted by leonidas
what is the relationship between eternity and the big bang/PF? and what exactly is the 'cosmic egg'?

anyone . . . ?

Well apparently Eternity comes into being after the universe is formed. He gestates within the cosmic egg and is formed when sentient life emerges as he is the sentience of the universe.

Eternity said the Phoenix is the assurance of life for all after the end of the previous universe. He called it the Resurrection Force and Stranger said its both the beginning and the End.

I thought the Cosmic Egg was just the condensed matter and energy of reality when all reality collapses in on itself with the Big Crunch. Could be wrong. Id love to see all of this stuff addressed. Marvel needs a story like Dc's "Genesis" which detailed the relationships between all the universes energy sources.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Well apparently Eternity comes into being after the universe is formed. He gestates within the cosmic egg and is formed when sentient life emerges as he is the sentience of the universe.

Eternity said the Phoenix is the assurance of life for all after the end of the previous universe. He called it the Resurrection Force and Stranger said its both the beginning and the End.

I thought the Cosmic Egg was just the condensed matter and energy of reality when all reality collapses in on itself with the Big Crunch. Could be wrong. Id love to see all of this stuff addressed. Marvel needs a story like Dc's "Genesis" which detailed the relationships between all the universes energy sources.

that was my take on the egg as well. so are you saying the egg is what is birthed by the PF? or to put it another way: is the PF the "chicken"? 😄

Originally posted by leonidas
that was my take on the egg as well. so are you saying the egg is what is birthed by the PF? or to put it another way: is the PF the "chicken"? 😄

I was thinking more that the Phoenix is reborn from the egg because the egg erupts into the Big Bang.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I was thinking more that the Phoenix is reborn from the egg because the egg erupts into the Big Bang.

cripes, isn't it sorta late in your neck of the woods!?? 😱

hmm, if that's the case, then wouldn't all the energy of the universe be represented by the egg since its the egg that allows the PF to . . . what? gestate?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
I was thinking more that the Phoenix is reborn from the egg because the egg erupts into the Big Bang.

Originally posted by leonidas
cripes, isn't it sorta late in your neck of the woods!?? 😱

hmm, if that's the case, then wouldn't all the energy of the universe be represented by the egg since its the egg that allows the PF to . . . what? gestate?

Thats the thing. The egg is the Big Bang, is the Phoenix Force apparently. There really needs to be more clarification.

An argument has been torn asunder blowup

A final challenge set death

Mr Master is conspicuous with his absence 😖hifty:

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
An argument has been torn asunder blowup

A final challenge set death

Mr Master is conspicuous with his absence 😖hifty:

fear

😂

Mr Master GalacticStorm

Originally posted by Thanos_THOTU
Mr Master GalacticStorm

😆

Originally posted by leonidas
fear

😂

😱 😆

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
😱 😆

What happened to your Kaballah ideas GS?

🙂

Originally posted by pantysniffer
What happened to your Kaballah ideas GS?

🙂

They retired just before you did old timer 😄