The Phoenix Force vs. Eternity

Started by WhiteWitchKing31 pages

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What i have is the Phoenix being stated on panel and within a multitude of official sources within continuity to be the Big Bang. With that in mind, that point is non debatable.

A literal manifestation

Shows nothing but the Phoenix Force and talks about her as ONE OF THE PRIMAL FORCES. Nice try, but how is that proof of creating the universe?


The Phoenix Force avatar is literally a flame from the Big Bang that is the greater Phoenix Force

What's this useless scan prove? That was after the Force got owned. And there was no avatar, so either show scans from the issue indicating so or shut up about it.


The fire of creation and the final destruction

I guess this sums it up already, Phoenix powers the abstract and created Galactus. 🙄 All you've given is this and that. When has Galactus or any abstract made such a reference? Nice assumption but that's only an assumption.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What I have is evidence saying the universes of Marvel are closed systems therefore all energy and all power from within the universe derive from the Big Bang. There is transition, but nothing new is created, everything spawned in reality is OF the Big Bang.

Galactus Excalibur -61,

Nexus guardians, Erishkigal and LT conversation Quasar -47

All energy within a reality is accounted for.

A closed system.

LT Quasar 57

Once again a closed system.

😆

Still nada. Hmm, I wonder if DC and Image are closed as well. Gonna have to think about that. 🙄

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Baron Nemo Thunderbolts- 100

Talks of how the Big Bang is the beginning and end of reality. By tapping the power of the Big Bang Quasar was disrupting reality across the entire timeline. Why? Because there is only one energy source, the Big Bang. The marvel universes are closed systems and all energy derives from the Big Bang in some manner.

All energy derieved from the Big Bang? I didn't know magic and the Tribunal's power came from the Big Bang as well. And apparently now all big bang is because of the Phoenix Force. Geeze. Phoenix Force fuels everything in the universe including the abstracts is what your getting at. 🙄 Ludacrous.

By the way, if Zemo knows so much about the Big Bang and creation of the universe, why not call it directly what it is: the Phoenix Force? Why doesn't everything in the MU refer to each creation as the Phoenix Force? And if it's confusing to knew readers, hell just put an asterix next to PF and put a footnote at the bottom? They do that everytime when trying to clarify Midgard as Earth to Thor readers. 🙄 But I bet you have an excuse for that one as well huh? Or just complete ignore it.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
What i have is scans of Galactus being transformed by the energy of the Cosmic Egg before it erupts into the [B]Big Bang.

And I have the connection between Phoenix and Galactus being directly made:

The energies of creation are the Big Bang are the Phoenix Force.

The Phoenix is the beginning and end. The power of creation is hers. It is all in line.

So just to sum up you have the Phoenix Force being called the beginning and the end of the cycle. You have the Phoenix called a literal manifestation of the Big Bang. You have LT, Galactus and Erishkigal clarifying that reality is a closed system so each universes power all derives from their Big Bang. Anything OF a reality is derivative of their Big Bang.
[/B]

Your reaching even further now kiddo. What your presenting is that all big bangs in the multiverse are a result of the Phoenix Force when the only universe the Phoenix Force is associated with is the 616 and in What If.

So what if the system is closed? That proves that all big bangs came from the PF? All universes and powers came from the Phoenix Force? What are you smoking? Seriously! What?!? How do you explain the Magus creating a universe without the big bang? Where'd that come from if the system is closed and all big bangs supposedly, according to you, comes from the Phoenix Force.


You have the Big Bang called the beginning and the end of reality. You have a source clarifying that the Big Bang is another name for the Phoenix Force.

So you're alluding that Phoenix Force powers every in every universe including every abstracts. 😆

Again, Phoenix Force is linked with only the 616 and yet any others except What Ifs. And don't bother bringing up Ultimates, that has nothing to do with continuity of the MU.


That is all I was arguing and that is indeed what I have proven.

😆

So where's the proof that all big bangs throughout the multiverse are really the Phoenix Force? And if that's really the case, why not call it the Phoenix Force instead of Big Bang.

wwk, are you saying that the pf is NOT the energy of the big bang?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Interestingly enough, Adam Warlock one time IG wielder and current Soul Gem wielder says that the IG's power comes from the Power Primordial, the energy gained from the Big Bang. 🙂

The handbooks snapped that up as the official line from Marvel. Id love to see this point followed up at some point. That would make me very happy indeed 😄


😆

That's all you've got? You post ambigous references and give scans that are barely readible? This is the same bull you tried with that poorly slanted scan of X-Men Forever and alluding to LT and the abstracts bowing before Jean when it never happened.

So cause the word Primordial was involved, we should all believe it was refering to the Phoenix Force? BULL kiddo. Who do you take us for? Xplosive? 🙄 Mider? 😂

All your evidence so far are assumptions.

From what your concluding, we might as well say Thanos has Power Cosmic since he wields cosmic power. And the Infinity Gauntlet's power came from Infinity.

Originally posted by leonidas
wwk, are you saying that the pf is NOT the energy of the big bang?
Originally posted by leonidas
wwk, are you saying that the pf is NOT the energy of the big bang?

I'm saying there are references of Phoenix as the spark of creation and the big bang but it still not clear that is. Have you seen the Phoenix create the big bang or the universe? I haven't. The only time I've seen it was by Genesis. Never by the Phoenix Force. The only close to credible person speaking about the Phoenix Force was the Watcher. Even then he references the Phoenix Force's opposite. Does that make sense to you? The assumption that all big bangs in the multiverse are even more crazy in that the Phoenix Force has mainly been reference to the 616. And yet this creator or power of the universeS of the MU has an opposite? Well, where does his power come from if everything came from the big bangS the Phoenix Force is responsible for?

What I find it even harder to believe is that all power in the universe came the Phoenix Force when there's no indication. It's all an assumption that all the power in the universe came from the big bang and the Phoenix Force has been referenced as the big bang, therefore we are to conclude that the Phoenix Force created the abstracts and powers everything in the universe. That is the biggest bull ever. This is comics, not the real world. I understand that some logic should be applied to arguing, but this takes the cake. All G.S. has are pieces of the puzzle. I say that because Marvel has yet to say definitively that the Phoenix Force powers everything in the universe. Or that the Phoenix Force created the MU as G.S. is alluding to. He's not saying it straight up, but we all know his style. The idea that the MU is a closed universe means that everything came from the Phoenix Force and so does the abstracts powers. LOL

It's not certain that everything is powered by the Phoenix Force. And I say that because unless the Phoenix Force is TOAA, it is nothing more than a being that ensures the cycle (616) continues NOT THE CREATOR ITSELF. And I'll repeat this. It ensures that the cycle continues. What G.S. wants everyone to believe is that the Phoenix Force powered everything in the multiverse including the abstracts, that it created them. I disagree. This is not so since none of the abstracts nor the Living Tribunal has treated the Phoenix Force in this stature much less their peer. And the Phoenix Force has shown more than enough loses to dismiss it as the power behind the abstracts and creator of the multivese. Even its bio speaks plenty regarding its place in the MU. It's showings and references by other abstracts aren't exactly as G.S. would like you to believe.

Have you seen evidence that all big bangs came from the Phoenix Force other than 616? Or that all energy every to exist came from these big bangs? How do you explain the creation of the universe using the Cosmic Cubes? No big bang was involved in that. The magics wielded by the mystics? Or the Living Tribunal? G.S. has some wierd assumptions. And I don't expect anything less from him. This is the same guy who tried to push Phoenix Force as the power of TOAA or an aspect of TOAA.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
So cause the word Primordial was involved, we should all believe it was refering to the Phoenix Force? BULL kiddo. Who do you take us for? Xplosive? Mider?

Did anyone allow you to mention my and Mider name?
As I can see GS posted scands where Phoenix said PF is the beggining and end of everything, didn't even Richards said PF=big bang?
Why would he lie?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
It is not my opinion that Phoenix directly created Galactus. In fact if you'd bothered to read this very thread you'd see i havent said that. What i have said is that Phoenixes foiling of Dwellers plans meant that Galan made it to Eternity who in turn directed him to the cosmic egg, where he was then transformed into Galactus. Not by Eternity because the egg was where Eternity himself was formed, but by the energies of creation, the very Big Bang which continuity dictates is the Phoenix Force.

Noone can deny that without Phoenixes actions in the previous reality that Galen would have died.

Noone can deny that the energies of creation, the Big Bang is Phoenix as thats continuity and as such if it is they who transformed Galen into Galactus, then Galactus was indeed formed from the Phoenix power.

On panel Phoenix giving Galan time to make it to Eternity is depicted. Im not saying she did it with that in mind, that was just one of the results.

The Cosmic egg is a previous state of the Big Bang and on panel the Egg is shown expanding out into the creation event.

Phoenix being the Big Bang is depicted on panel and stated on panel.

Here's your problem, GS...all of your so-called evidence is circumstantial, yet you sell it like it's conclusive. You twist and manipulate what you see in your mind and come up with you own interpretation. Then you take all of that and spread it like the gospel, abbreviating it down to: Phoenix created Galactus.

On-panel evidence shows that your whole point-of-view is nothing but speculation and conjecture, so why continue to spread lies? It doesn't make you look cool, or smart. You already got kicked out of CBR for spreading lies, yet you continue with this practise, with no remorse.

SHAME! 😆

LT is grouped together as one of the cosmics affected by the replacement process in issue 1 pg 19 as you've noted, but also pg 21 of issue 3 and pg 16 of issue 6 so him being affected wasnt a one off error in a single issue. It was the idea proposed in that title. So in light of that your weak argument based on your ignorance of these other showings and the inclusion of the word "access" is quite soundly laid to rest.
Actually the whole series should be totally disregarded, cause it's clear indication that certain writers (X-writers to be precise) really don't know what they're talking about when it comes to the cosmic Marvel Universe.

However while as far as the comic shows LT does indeed get replaced each cycle it is my view after many intelligent debates with the one and only Illadelph that as this process is a part of the natural order which he strives to preserve and enforce LT being affected by the process doesnt necessarily place Phoenix above him. They are all just playing out their roles.
I know that's what it shows...but as I've stated, it's an incorrect depiction of LT. Why would LT be shown along side UNIVERSAL cosmic beings? Why would LT be affected by a UNIVERSAL big bang? He would sit in his chair and watch...just like he did in 'Adventures of X-Men' #12, when the previous UNIVERSE was coming to an end, and the new, 616 universe, was being born. He sat there in his chair...I didn't see him get replaced. Why would he? Ask yourself how a MULTIVERSAL guardian would get replaced by the death and rebirth of one universe?

It doesn't make sense...and yes I know that idea was presented on panel...but there's an acronym for that: PIS.

It's a fallacy on the part of the writers to group LT with those other cosmics, because he's not their peer...but is above them. The writers showed their ignorance of LT. Which happens a lot in the X-side of things...as they've sort of appointed their own character (Roma) to play LT's role.

The same however doesnt apply for the abstracts who unlike LT are of the universe, that the Phoenix power spawns. Plus Phoenix has demonstrated on panel she wields more power than that contained in the universe by manipulating it and all its composed of down to the atomic and materialising it in her palm. That and various other feats place her above the abstracts.
Bull and shit, son. That was purely figurative...'holding the universe in the palm of her hand'...sort of like 'he's got the world in his hands'. Your problem is you take things waaaaaaaay too literally.

In conclusion, my good friend...you're wrong. Always have been. Earlier, I asked you to yield...now I'm demanding it!

You're not as smart as you think you are...we can all see right through you. All you're good for his light-hearted humour through smilies and over-use of the words 'sonny', 'friend', 'young friend', etc, and cheap, yet ultra-devious, image tricks. Ie: LT (and the abstracts) bowing down to Phoenix...you may have fooled the very intelligent Xplosive, but not the rest of us. You're a fraud, GS...you laid out your credentials, (or lack thereof), in your very first appearance on this board...arguing vehemently in favour of Storm, against Dr. Doom. rolleyes1

So take a seat, grasshopper.

Phoenix Threads = Gi-normous posts

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
I'm saying there are references of Phoenix as the spark of creation and the big bang but it still not clear that is. Have you seen the Phoenix create the big bang or the universe? I haven't. The only time I've seen it was by Genesis. Never by the Phoenix Force. The only close to credible person speaking about the Phoenix Force was the Watcher. Even then he references the Phoenix Force's opposite. Does that make sense to you? The assumption that all big bangs in the multiverse are even more crazy in that the Phoenix Force has mainly been reference to the 616. And yet this creator or power of the universeS of the MU has an opposite? Well, where does his power come from if everything came from the big bangS the Phoenix Force is responsible for?

What are you talking about? It point blank says in multiple sources ive posted that Phoenix is the Big Bang.There is no reference in current Marvel continuity whatsoever that says the Big Bang is the energies of another being.

Whats confusing you so much son is that youre looking at it as if Phoenix emits the Big Bang as if its a discharge of its power. That is wrong. Phoenix is literally the Big Bang. It is literally those energies sentient. I have posted a scan which says Phoenix is a literal manifestation of the Big Bang.

As for Sise Neg he triggered a Big Bang again from the energy and matter that was already there. He never generated it off his own back, he created a reaction after traveling to the beginning of time, in order to determine the resultant reality. That doesn’t affect my argument in the slightest when it states point blank on panel many a time that Phoenix is the Big Bang, is the energies of creation, is the life force of reality. As that is continuity all that means is Sise Neg caused an artificial Big Bang out of the energies which continuity dictates is the natural form of the Phoenix Force.

Hold up. Another one of your problems is that you see what you want to see, you see one sentence you disagree with and immediately jump into attack mode without taking time to read and comprehend the rest of the post which puts it all into context.

I never said in my posts in this thread straight up that Phoenix is the power source for the entire Marvel multiverse. I never once said that. I posted scans saying that each universe of Marvel is a closed system. I established that the Big Bang of each universe is that which all within each universe is derived from. That alongside my multiple scans stating Phoenix is the Big Bang, the sum and substance of all life and the life force of reality made the solid case that all power within the 616 universe derives from the Phoenix Force.

As for your comment about the Watcher being the only credible source to say such a thing, i clearly posted a scan of the Stranger saying the Phoenix is the beginning and the end as well.

I clearly posted a scan of Eternity stating Phoenix to be the rebirth of the universe after the end of the previous cycle. The resurrection force, the assurance of life after death. Its all in line.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
What I find it even harder to believe is that all power in the universe came the Phoenix Force when there's no indication. It's all an assumption that all the power in the universe came from the big bang and the Phoenix Force has been referenced as the big bang, therefore we are to conclude that the Phoenix Force created the abstracts and powers everything in the universe. That is the biggest bull ever. This is comics, not the real world. I understand that some logic should be applied to arguing, but this takes the cake. All G.S. has are pieces of the puzzle. I say that because Marvel has yet to say definitively that the Phoenix Force powers everything in the universe. Or that the Phoenix Force created the MU as G.S. is alluding to. He's not saying it straight up, but we all know his style. The idea that the MU is a closed universe means that everything came from the Phoenix Force and so does the abstracts powers. LOL

Its not all assumption at all. Its not some conclusion I’VE come to based on real world science, its what is actually stated IN THE COMICS. Did you read the posts and scans, did you actually take the time out to comprehend the argument or did you just admire the pretty pictures?

LT, the nexus guardians and Erishkigal all stated that the universes of the marvel multiverse are closed systems and they explained what that meant.

There is one energy source and it is divided up and accounted for. Everything is derivative from that source. Galactus further explained in another comic that again the universe of 616 is a closed system and that the Big Bang is the be all and end all of energy within the universe and that Marvel. That is the only source and all other energies are derivative from it. He then on panel states that THE PHOENIX IS THE EXPRESSION OF THAT VERY SAME ENERGY SOURCE, an expression of the universal life force.

The fire bird is that power expressed within reality. It is a manifestation of it. Again in line with the previous scan that said Phoenix is a literal manifestation of the Big Bang:

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
It's not certain that everything is powered by the Phoenix Force. And I say that because unless the Phoenix Force is TOAA, it is nothing more than a being that ensures the cycle (616) continues NOT THE CREATOR ITSELF. And I'll repeat this. It ensures that the cycle continues. What G.S. wants everyone to believe is that the Phoenix Force powered everything in the multiverse including the abstracts, that it created them. I disagree. This is not so since none of the abstracts nor the Living Tribunal has treated the Phoenix Force in this stature much less their peer. And the Phoenix Force has shown more than enough loses to dismiss it as the power behind the abstracts and creator of the multivese. Even its bio speaks plenty regarding its place in the MU. It's showings and references by other abstracts aren't exactly as G.S. would like you to believe.

What is certain WWK is that the Phoenix is literally the energies of creation, the Big Bang. The point is stated on panel. What is certain is that the marvel universes are closed systems and that all power within derives from the Big Bang. A connection has been made on panel saying the Phoenix power is that which made Galactus who he is. The account doesn’t have to be given in every recount of Galactus’ origins, just as long as its current continuity that Phoenix is the Big Bang and it is those energies which transformed Galan. Eternity has told us that it is the Phoenix which rebirths the universe. Stranger has told us the Phoenix begins and ends the cycle. Phoenix has told us the same, the Watcher has told us the same. With those testimonies from said cosmic characters your comments pertaining to the cosmics not holding the Phoenix in high regard is just your unsupported opinion. Show us a cosmic stating that the Phoenix Force is nothing and is unnecessary to existence.

Im not saying that the Phoenix Force is the creator. Im not saying it is God. I know it to in light of that must have been created and that the Force is that which keeps the cycle going at a universal level. However that doesn’t change the fact that in going about its role it spawns the abstracts at the beginning of every cycle. It doesn’t change the fact that it is the sentient energies of creation and that by killing and rebirthing itself cyclically it perpetuates the cycle of which the abstracts are part of. Its power and its actions see the abstracts are created. Eternity said the same thing in X-men Forever, he credited the Phoenix for his recreation and he and the abstracts were painted as very much a part of the cycle Phoenix determines in the natural order.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing
Have you seen evidence that all big bangs came from the Phoenix Force other than 616? Or that all energy every to exist came from these big bangs? How do you explain the creation of the universe using the Cosmic Cubes? No big bang was involved in that. The magics wielded by the mystics? Or the Living Tribunal? G.S. has some wierd assumptions. And I don't expect anything less from him. This is the same guy who tried to push Phoenix Force as the power of TOAA or an aspect of TOAA.

You don’t have to see a big diagram of how all energy in any given universe derives from its Phoenix. Ive posted scans from different realities stating that Phoenix is the Big Bang or the life force of reality. Therefore you know that the Phoenix Force has the same role in more than one reality You have comments from LT stating that each universe is a closed system. Therefore each realities power is derivative from its Big Bang. That’s good enough. All im trying to argue here is that all the power in one universe derives from its Big Bang. Im not saying it off my own back, the comics state it. The point therefore until you have on panel evidence stating that all energy within a universe DOESN’T come from its Big Bang is NON DEBATABLE.

As for your comments about the cubes, as stated on panel they and their power derive from an alternate reality, they are not of 616 so your point flops. They draw their power from the pocket dimension the Beyond Realm. The Magics wielded by mystics in part is said to come from the ambient energies of the universe. Eternity himself has been said to be one of the greatest sources for mystic might in Marvel. Magic power is just part of reality im afraid.

Originally posted by WhiteWitchKing

That's all you've got? You post ambigous references and give scans that are barely readible? This is the same bull you tried with that poorly slanted scan of X-Men Forever and alluding to LT and the abstracts bowing before Jean when it never happened.

So cause the word Primordial was involved, we should all believe it was refering to the Phoenix Force? BULL kiddo. Who do you take us for? Xplosive?

All your evidence so far are assumptions.

From what your concluding, we might as well say Thanos has Power Cosmic since he wields cosmic power. And the Infinity Gauntlet's power came from Infinity.

What do you mean that’s all ive got. It states flat out where the power comes from and it’s from a reputable source.

Now you’re just highlighting your flawed comic knowledge. Do you actually know what the Power Primordial is? I never made up this argument just because Adams sentence featured that word, it’s an actual power source in Marvel. It’s stated to be energy derived from the Big Bang. That is why Adam says on panel that the IG is powered by the Power Primordial and the handbook writer who actually reads comics says the Ig is powered by the Big Bang. 😱

As for your comment about Thanos. Nope. The power cosmic is a power its not a power source. Its a way of absorbing and manipulating and channeling cosmic power. Point dismissed. Its an ability.

Your Infinity comment came from a previous state of ignorance on your part which I hopefully now have rectified.

Good day! 😄

Wannabe main event. Here we go old yella!!

Originally posted by Lord S
Here's your problem, GS...all of your so-called evidence is circumstantial, yet you sell it like it's conclusive. You twist and manipulate what you see in your mind and come up with you own interpretation. Then you take all of that and spread it like the gospel, abbreviating it down to: Phoenix created Galactus.

On-panel evidence shows that your whole point-of-view is nothing but speculation and conjecture, so why continue to spread lies? It doesn't make you look cool, or smart. You already got kicked out of CBR for spreading lies, yet you continue with this practise, with no remorse.

SHAME! 😆

My evidence states that Phoenix is the Big Bang.

My evidence states that the Big Bang is another name for the Phoenix Force.

On panel continuity dictates that Galactus was transformed by the energies of the Big Bang.

I have posted a scan which directly connects the two. You are disagreeing due to personal preference and a worrying obsession to finally get one over me. You do not have a single scrap of evidence which states that Phoenix is NOT the Big Bang.

Showing a scan of a Big Bang that is not Phoenix shaped or where the Phoenix is not mentioned is insufficient, when it has been established within continuity that the two are one and the same.

Never been a member of CBR. Ive had WWK say i was a member of Superherohype as well. Thats not the case at all. Good attempt.

Shame on you for trying to attack me personally, after finding your own argument to be as water tight as a sponge. 🙁

Originally posted by Lord S
Actually the whole series should be totally disregarded, cause it's clear indication that certain writers (X-writers to be precise) really don't know what they're talking about when it comes to the cosmic Marvel Universe.

I know that's what it shows...but as I've stated, it's an incorrect depiction of LT. Why would LT be shown along side UNIVERSAL cosmic beings? Why would LT be affected by a UNIVERSAL big bang? He would sit in his chair and watch...just like he did in 'Adventures of X-Men' #12, when the previous UNIVERSE was coming to an end, and the new, 616 universe, was being born. He sat there in his chair...I didn't see him get replaced. Why would he? Ask yourself how a MULTIVERSAL guardian would get replaced by the death and rebirth of one universe?

Please bear in mind that X-men Adventures preceded X-men Forever so that is a perfect explanation for the contradicting depiction of LT within it.

LT is a multiversal force, however he manifests in each universe via Mbodies as and when they are required. The LT from The End was an Mbody, The LT who got squished in Last Planet Standing was an Mbody, bestowed with a portion of his power as stated by the writer of said title. Such Mbodies have been said to be the embodiment of just universal justice. Upon the end of a reality LT’s role and position would be made redundant in said reality until the next Phoenix initiated cycle would it not? Was the title not talking from a universal perspective?

With regards to the replacement, have we been told on panel LT’s origin and exact nature? Mbodys are after all just how the sentient inhabitants of a universe perceive a concept.

So with the revolving cycle of universal creation and destruction such perceptions, such representations of a concept are going to be replaced as new life emerges in every cycle.

Look at when Thanos gained power during the IG Saga and he took Eternitys role, he replaced Eternity. When Thanos became the black, star faced, humanoid figure and the old perception we know was imprisoned. The universe never changed, just our perception of it. In the same way, the universal perception of LT, gets replaced, every cycle, with no effect on the concept of LT itself, which is multiversal justice. Youre forgetting to acknowledge that this process is part of the natural order and LT would therefore submit to it as such.

The issue of LT getting replaced as depicted in X-men Forever is something which needs clarification. However it is depicted. As such while you can claim it’s a contradiction which needs explanation, you can’t come on here and dismiss it because you don’t like it.

Originally posted by Lord S
Bull and shit, son. That was purely figurative...'holding the universe in the palm of her hand'...sort of like 'he's got the world in his hands'. Your problem is you take things waaaaaaaay too literally.

How can you claim it was purely figurative when Jean is told to treat the wounded universe in the White Hot Room. Jean travels there and over the scenes Jean then goes from having nothing in her hand, to having small globules of energy, to having what we’re told is the universe. Whilst that was going on we had commentary from the Phoenix Consciousness pertaining to Jeans control of that vast number of atoms. Earlier in previous story arcs we saw Jeans telekinesis become more and more advanced, until we’re told she possesses telekinetic godhood. Complete and total control of matter. The point demonstrated in the universe in the palm of the hand scene.