1. Right, he's not a Revan/Ragnos fanboy. 🙄
2. You're implying that I lie and refute canon fact. which is false.
3. It was Nebaris who said that, not me, however he made it perfectly clear that by 'extreme', he meant 'inconsistant', but this really is funny coming from the 'logic hound', that's right, the same logic hound who's hobbies include 'crushing the ridiculous opinions of GM Nebaris and Darth Sexy'.
But anyway, me and TD are having a deep conversation, please don't but in.
1. Shut up.
2. Shut up.
3. And shut up.
Now for the serious responses.
1. I dislike the whole 'You're a fanboy!' mentality. New rule in the forum- you may not accuse anybody of fanboyism, in the sense that you're trying to win the argument by accusing them thusly. That's just stupid. I'll start editting out posts and handing out warnings to those who slay it around like kids in a mud puddle. I will take it as a form of bashing.
2. You DO lie. See #3. And you've refuted canon fact too. See the Legacy thread where you declared 'Freedon Nadd is the Chosen One!' and were then promptly smashed to pieces.
3. It was Nebaris who said that, and therefore, you as well. You're not fooling anyone.
4. There was no #4, so I'm making one. Gideon, and anyone else, have every right to partake in the debates. Sorry, you don't dictate that, or anything else. doped
ANYWAYS...
I would give this to Anakin. Luke may have defeated Vader (best fighter doesn't always win!), but that never seems to get factored into the fights here. Anakin had more training and was more skilled and more powerful than Luke was at the time.
What was the time period between ANH and ROTJ? However long it was, I'm sure it wasn't as long of a period as TPM to ROTS. Anakin has more potential, was the most powerful knight the order had ever known, and had more extensive training from all of the best masters during the prime of the Jedi. Whereas Luke, got very little training from OB1 and a little more from Yoda, when he was far past his prime. Anakin just has too much going for him to lose. Sire, Luke beat Vader when tapping in to the darkside, after vader was toying with I'm and underestimated him, but Anakin has done far more. He beat Dooku a lot quicker and displayed more powerful feats that Luke ever has, save for EU.
Originally posted by darthsith19
But he wasn't as conflicted in ESB as he is in ROTJ.No, he cared, he just didn't do anything out of fear.
The point was to turn Luke to the Dark Side.
Since is says so in a rolling stones interview.
Just because he was trying to turn Luke doesn't mean that he wasn't going to do his very best to not lose to him.
In ESB, when Vader went (apparently) all out on Luke he still had wanted Luke to join him.
Can I see a link for this Rolling Stones interview?
And Vader eventually changed his mind on letting Sidious kill Luke. He was going to let Sidious kill him. Luke not striking him down meant that he had failed to turn Luke to the darkside and so he would have to kill him. It's JUST like when Anakin and Dooku fought. Do you think that Dooku threw his fight against Anakin or did he really lose fairly?
Now that I think about it, we've never really seen Vader go ALL OUT on anyone. Here's why-
ANH- Obi gives up
ESB- Toys with Luke
RotJ- Conflicting emotions affect him; he is trying not to kill Luke
Here's my proof for what I said about RotJ:
He won without the slightest exertion in ESB. Luke did absolutely nothing to improve enough to change the outcome of a duel against a Sith Lord between the two duels.
Why didn't Vader start throwing things like in ESB? Or using the Force at all?
Why did he say, "It's too late for me, son?" or some crap like that before the duel. That's like saying, "I'm sorry for killing the guy, but I can't be sorry." VADER WAS ALREADY REGRETTING HIS DEEDS! He was not going all out if he only wanted to fight halfheartedly.
Originally posted by Darth Godzilla
Now that I think about it, we've never really seen Vader go ALL OUT on anyone. Here's why-
ANH- Obi gives up
ESB- Toys with Luke
RotJ- Conflicting emotions affect him; he is trying not to kill LukeHere's my proof for what I said about RotJ:
He won without the slightest exertion in ESB. Luke did absolutely nothing to improve enough to change the outcome of a duel against a Sith Lord between the two duels.
Why didn't Vader start throwing things like in ESB? Or using the Force at all?
Why did he say, "It's too late for me, son?" or some crap like that before the duel. That's like saying, "I'm sorry for killing the guy, but I can't be sorry." VADER WAS ALREADY REGRETTING HIS DEEDS! He was not going all out if he only wanted to fight halfheartedly.
Vader won without the slightest exertion in ESB? I think not. Luke got a solid hit on Vader's shoulder. Vader was also 'impressed' by Luke's abilities.
Vader felt that it was to late for him, so he had to stick with the Darkside, aka, kill Luke. Luke got ticked and ripped up on him though. Vader might have won if he'd been fighting at his peak the entire time, but Luke did manage to beat him, showing considerable skill on his part. Vader is better than Anakin, so even if Luke is only equal to Vader, he's still better than Anakin.
Originally posted by PuffyCheese
Let's just say that ROTJ enraged Luke is on par with ROTS Anakin in terms sabers (not that I really think that). Being enraged still does nothing for force power. Since this is Mustafar, Anakin simply tosses Luke into a river of lava thanks to his superior force power. Fight over.
Alright. So lets say that Luke gains no additional Force Power because of his state of rage. Now, I don't believe that he wouldn't gain any strength; I mean, it does grant him access to the Darkside. But lets just go on what we know. Lets say that Luke get zero additional strength in the Force.
Okay, so where's you proof that Anakin has superior Force Powers?
A>B>C arguements dont mean shit.
Not always. This isn't your typical A>B>C argument though. In this instance, B is C. So you can see A>B makes A>C.
Originally posted by Darth_Glentract
Vader is better than Anakin, so even if Luke is only equal to Vader, he's still better than Anakin.
No, you're wrong.
Anakin, before getting his limbs strewn across the banks of Mustafar, was the better lightsaber duelist by far. This is apparent throughout the entire saga, you don't even need to look at anything else. Although, if you do, I'm fairly certain you'll find things such as:
"In other words, the skill and power that Anakin shows as a young man is greater than what we see in the classic films. As Vader, Anakin is more machine than man, and being a half-droid construct has seriously hampered his lightsaber prowess." (Episode VI Lore.)
And,
"Vader was half-man, half-machine. Obi-Wan was an old man, it was a hard fight. It wasn't an acrobatic, jump around, fast fight. It was hard fight to fight because they're old Jedi." (A New Hope Commentary, George Lucas.)
What's rather funny is that Luke isn't even as "skillful or acrobatic as the young Jedi of the prequels", yet he managed to overwhelm Darth Vader and contend with him legitimately.
Darth Vader only has a Force advantage over his former self, in lightsaber combat he would be decimated. Furthermore, he barely used the Force against Luke in RotJ, except in one instance where he threw his lightsaber. That was it.
How do you figure that Luke = Vader, therefore he's > Anakin? Oh, wait. That's flawed since Anakin > Vader, in dueling prowess. The aspect of combat that Luke "bested" Darth Vader in.
Anakin kicks the ever living shit out of his son. Even in terms of the Force, he's greater, but I wouldn't give him more than thirty seconds in a duel. Much like when Vader turned on the juice in ESB, and lopped off his hand, except in this case, the far better duelist will severe his head instead.
And this quote pretty much proves lightsnakes point
Time and again the two jedi attempted to alter their style, but vader had an answer for every lunge, parry and riposte. His style borrowed elemtents from all techniques of combat, even from the highest, most dangerous levels, and his moves are crisp and unpredictable, In addition, his incredible foresight allows him to anticipate Forte's and Kulkas strategies and manuevers/
So now he has foresight allowing him to know what is his opponents next move
Source: RODV
And he further improves on his skills as my favourite quote which JA and Shadow of the empire proves,