Originally posted by Lightsnake
So? Vader had two decades to imrpvoe and adept.
He can't "improve" on certain things. For example, he'll never be as agile as he was formerly, nor as fast. And he had a hard time keeping up with Ben Kenobi because of his injuries, that doesn't tell you anything?
Well, if it doesn't, I'll let you in on the secret: he sucks ass [in comparison to his RotS incarnation].
And uhh, what do you mean? Because he has time that somehow means he can become better than before? Not when you factor in the vast handicaps he received.
In fact, some of the things he's done surpass anything Anakin could
No, because Anakin - with a lightsaber - is better than Darth Vader by a decent margin, therefore whatever Vader does, I have absolutely no doubts that Anakin could do it. Better, probably.
But as I'm curious to see what the almighty Vader (who we have a definitive confirmation is the lesser in dueling) has over Anakin, do tell, what has he accomplished with a blade that Anakin couldn't?
(Hint: The answer is nothing.)
in force
Irrelevant. When was I arguing the Force again? Oh? Never?
in saber.
Such as? Prove up.
Keep in mind, you said he's accomplished things greater than Anakin could do. Not "has done". Even if that were the case, feat wars are irrelevant since Anakin's dueling prowess surpasses Vader's.
@ Kadesh:
But being 1 step ahead makes a difference and the added advantage that vader knows how anakin works, what are his strategies
All Jedi possess precognition. So, I don't see how Anakin won't know likewise.
Even if you consider that "Vader knows how Anakin works", it doesn't actually give such a substantial advantage, as you would believe. Anakin is also faster, more flexible, and far more graceful than Vader could ever hope to be.
Those advantages more than make up for what Darth Vader has over him in lightsaber combat.
Um merging forms itself and using it effectively already proves his skill to do so, how many jedi or sith could actually do that in the past thousand years? None
Hey, Mr. Irrelevant misdirection, next time respond to the point at hand and not tout off some other, random bullshit.
Who cares if he combined forms? Like I said, it doesn't change the fact that he's still not as skilled, fast, or flexible as Anakin.
And, by the way, do you have any actual proof that no other lightsaber wielder borrowed from all the forms and infused them? Didn't think so. Absence of proof is not proof of absence, and I highly doubt Darth Vader is the only person ever to do such, especially when we've had people actually master all forms of combat.
Not that it really matters, because none of this is relevant to the discussion, since it doesn't prove he's actually as good.
The by all means. go ahead and ignore canon. You yourself stated whats in novels are canon
When did I "ignore canon", care to point that one out? I think you'll find it's impossible, because all I meant by that is "the source doesn't matter, seeing as it proves nothing".
If I "ignored canon" as you declare, then I wouldn't have responded, or if I did, it would've been something along the lines of: "Oh, yeah? RoDV isn't canon, so who cares?".
But, I didn't. Try again, chump change!
Droids which have are faster, stronger than a human being aand programed with every form
Droids which cannot predict moves, you mean? Yeah, that kind.
What's truly friggin' hil-ar-i-ous is that Jedi padawans are seen training with these type of droids, lol!
If you've ever played Jedi Academy, you'd know that. On Yavin, the Jedi Praxeum uses the same type of droid, the ASP-19, that Darth Vader had. So, I don't find that quote impressive. More like a steaming pile of Sith. Just like Darth Vader.
Try again, chump change!
So by your point of view, vader actually got suckier rather than improved?
It's not "from my point of view", because it's fact. If anything, it's LucasFilms official standing on the matter (which is canon). Anakin Skywalker is greater in lightsaber combat pre-suit than he is post-suit.
Now, obviously Darth Vader improved from the time of RoDV, however, the quote that makes reference to Darth Vader being a pile of shit compared to Anakin is in regards to the OT, so therefore he still doesn't hold a candle to his past incarnation.
Actually i did
No, because if you did, I would've conceded. I'm fairly certain that if someone like me is arguing against you, you're [nine times out of ten] wrong.
By the things he acomplished, his "slow clunky ass" skills caused him to kill huge groups of wookies, Decimate any remaining jedi in the 19 year gap.
...
All I can is "ellipsis", and this: feat wars. And this: none of that changes the fact he's still not as skillful as Anakin. And this: how does any of that prove he's more skilled? And this: Oops, it doesn't.
Do you expect a hard fight to be zomg!! its so cool! wow somersaults!!!!! No we cant. Muay thai is the most offensive and brutal form of boxing, is it flashy? No it isnt
In the movies it [Muay Thai] is, but that's besides the point, Ong-Bak.
What you failed to take into consideration is that it was a hard fought battle because Darth Vader is a "crippled half-droid". He had a hard time contending with an "old man", because of such.
Again, what you said is irrelevant to the point. Try again, chump change!
Again the "hard fight" Looks pathetic when vader dueled an inferior: Luke skywalker Again being in a hard fight doesnt mean you have to be flashy
What? I think I'm only going to parrot one line in response to this, because this point clearly has nothing to do with what I wrote, nor does it even make sense.
When have I even implied that a "hard fight" needs to be extravagant? Oh, wait. I didn't. All I implied was that it was a hard fought battle.
Because that vader underestimated him?
Not really. He only underestimated him in the beginning, afterwards he got dropped like he was hot.
"Vader was impressed with Luke's speed. Pleased, even.
Vader watched Luke. His boy was powerful, stronger than he'd imagined.
For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel." (Return of the Jedi, Ch. 8.)
Yep, that sure as hell seems like he was underestimating his son. So much that he had a thought of his son beating him! Keep in mind, this was right after Luke kicked his ass down the stairs, not towards the end.
Seems you're a tad bit (completely) wrong. Try again, chump change!
Or prehaps because he mirrored vaders own form again and proves its effectiveness over its on practitionar
Or perhaps, Darth Vader's form and dueling skills aren't as good as you make them out to be?
Yeah, I'll go with that for $500, Alex.
[Cliegg Lars] "Your Anakim's dead, son. Accept it. [Cliegg Lars]
You fail at quoting. You also fail at spelling (I caught it before you edited it). And, not surprisingly, you fail at trying to pull off a copy.
I think it's time to kill yourself now. 😉
[Bail Organa] "And so it is... [/Bail Organa]
vader rather got much better with his saber skills since his got burnt.
Wow, you're clearly an idiot with no regard for official word on the matter. For reference:
"In other words, the skill and power that Anakin shows as a young man is greater than what we see in the classic films. As Vader, Anakin is more machine than man, and being a half-droid construct has seriously hampered his lightsaber prowess." (Episode VI Lore.)
QED, noob.
Advent is assuming anakin wins by default
By default? How so? I've actually got reasonings behind what I wrote, unlike you, who just posts feat wars, and expects people to accept you as anything even remotely resembling an able debater.
I'm actually insulted, when have I ever assumed anything "by default"? I consider all factors, son. That's why I trample on your arguments like they were the ground I walk on.