Originally posted by Nellinator
I'm not familiar with this stuff, but since God is not physical does it really apply?
At many points in history god was physical.
Do modern religions really feel so "threatened" by modern thought that they will transmutate the concept of God into anything that is completely untouchable by any physical laws, despite historical interpretations?
If God is not physical, how do you propose he has physical ramifications?
Originally posted by RegretIn all seriousness, why? and where?
Yes, I believe God has a physical form.
Originally posted by AllianceSpirits influence the physical world, God's omnipotence allows Him to influence things without physical prescence. I openly admit that I cannot explain it with science.
At many points in history god was physical.Do modern religions really feel so "threatened" by modern thought that they will transmutate the concept of God into anything that is completely untouchable by any physical laws, despite historical interpretations?
If God is not physical, how do you propose he has physical ramifications?
Originally posted by Nellinator
Spirits influence the physical world, God's omnipotence allows Him to influence things without physical prescence. I openly admit that I cannot explain it with science.
Spirits nor God can influence the physical world, because they do not exist. That is why you cannot explain them with science.
Originally posted by NellinatorWhy not? As to a more comprehensive reason for why, I am LDS. The LDS faith began with the fact that Joseph Smith prayed for guidance from God as to which religion he should follow and received an answer from God and Christ in person. He claimed that God the Father descended, with Christ at his right, and they answered the question in person in physical forms.
In all seriousness, why? and where?
Where? I do not know, God is a being beyond my full comprehension, and his existence can have only be touched upon in the Bible. We have a term Kolob that is supposed to be the name of the "place", but what that means is not fully understood either.
Originally posted by Adam_PoEThe classical non-Christian omeback: 'they do not exist' or 'it doesn't matter anyway 'cuz God isn't real'. In reality you haven't proven me wrong. In fact I sorta proved your door analogy wrong.
Spirits nor God can influence the physical world, because they do not exist. That is why you cannot explain them with science.
Ya, but logic is difficult to apply to things we don't understand. If we assume that there is a spiritual realm (necessary for the argument) it is still impossible because we have no knowledge outside of the Bible (in this case) showing the influences of the spiritual realm. So, its difficult to say unless we go on the premise that spirits are energy, in which case they could definitely effect many things in the physical world depending on how that energy is manifested.
Originally posted by AllianceWell, I consider the Bible and life nowadays as holding evidence of the physical effects of the spiritual world. If we assume that faith healings, exorcisms, etc. are true and valid then they are evidence of the physical effects of the spiritual realm along with everything that God claims to be responsible for.
Then if we don't understand it and don't have real evidence of it...why pass judgements on it? Why theorize an endless series of possibilities that we have not the power to understand?
Ultimately, I think that it is illogical to say that something outside of time cannot effect anything inside of time when we have a limited (ie. absolutely zero) understanding of what something outside of time would be capable of inside of time.
Originally posted by Nellinator
Well, I consider the Bible and life nowadays as holding evidence of the physical effects of the spiritual world. If we assume that faith healings, exorcisms, etc. are true and valid then they are evidence of the physical effects of the spiritual realm along with everything that God claims to be responsible for.Ultimately, I think that it is illogical to say that something outside of time cannot effect anything inside of time when we have a limited (ie. absolutely zero) understanding of what something outside of time would be capable of inside of time.
In other words, you think it is unreasonable to believe that nothing that exists outside of time can be the cause of temporal changes, even though there is no reason, i.e. absolutely zero to believe that things that exist outside of time can be the cause of temporal changes.
Then again, you think it is perfectly reasonable to subscribe characteristics to a god that you have no reason to believe exists.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
People are either appointed, i.e. named or assigned; designated; determined; fixed; set; ordered or established by decree or command; ordained; or constituted to eternal life by God or they are not.
* and you misinterpreted it... see here, you were appointed to go to, say what? uhm, let's say, to North Pole... yeah, you were appointed, you were ordered to go to North Pole... and you did not go... as simple as that...
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
If it is possible for one to do something other than what God has appointed, i.e. named or assigned; designated; determined; fixed; set; ordered or established by decree or command; ordained; or constituted that he do, then God is not omnipotent.
* wrong conclusion... let me rephrase: if it is possible for one to do something other than what God has appointed: it is the application of free will...
* and there is something God cannot do... but that does not mean God is not Almighty and powerful...
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
If it is possible for one to do something other than what God knows that he will do, then God is not omniscient.
* that's because there is something God does not know... God does not know what decision you will make before you put it in your heart...
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
The only thing The Bible is evidence of is that ink sticks to paper. Hence, I "reject the love of the truth so as to not be saved," because I do not recognize The Bible as truth.One does not hold a belief if he believes it to be false. The issue is not whether one believes his beliefs to be false, but whether one believes a belief that is false.
* oh, bad example... you do not recognize the Bible as truth... let's go back to the verse, i see you are even fighting the grammar... "because" will always be the cause, and "therefore" will always be the effect...
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Both verses cannot be correct. Which is it?
* both verses are correct...
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
It is impossible to be both inside and outside of time simultaneously.
* time cannot govern God, because God governs time... oh, and God created time...
Originally posted by Regret
Yes, I believe God has a physical form.
* what about this?
"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth."
John 4:24
* God is a spirit...
"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom can be no variation, neither shadow that is cast by turning."
James 1:17
* and God never changes His state of being, God is a spirit and from eternity to eternity, He will remain a spirit...
Originally posted by Regret
Why not? As to a more comprehensive reason for why, I am LDS. The LDS faith began with the fact that Joseph Smith prayed for guidance from God as to which religion he should follow and received an answer from God and Christ in person. He claimed that God the Father descended, with Christ at his right, and they answered the question in person in physical forms.
* true, that is only a claim... and i'm sorry, but that claim of Mr. Joseph Smith is very unbiblical...
"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."
John 1:18
"Who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen."
I Timothy 6:16
* what is physical? God is a spirit, and what is a spirit?
"See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye behold me having."
Luke 24:39
* what physical form did Mr. Joseph Smith saw? 😉
Originally posted by peejayd
* what about this?"God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth."
John 4:24* God is a spirit...
"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom can be no variation, neither shadow that is cast by turning."
James 1:17* and God never changes His state of being, God is a spirit and from eternity to eternity, He will remain a spirit...
As to James, 1:17,
James 1:17
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Originally posted by peejaydYes, it is unbiblical, nothing spiritual occurring following the NT is Biblical, get over it, it doesn't necessitate something being wrong. Christ was unbiblical and so the Jews had the Romans kill him, everything in the Bible was unbiblical at one point in time.
* true, that is only a claim... and i'm sorry, but that claim of Mr. Joseph Smith is very unbiblical...
I don't believe the Bible to be the end-all of God's dealings with man. Given this, God can reveal things that are not stated in the Bible. The Bible itself states that much of what Christ taught/did is not in the Bible (John 21:25), it also is unbiblical. Get over it.
Joseph's claim is only unbiblical because up to that point no one had seen the Father. The Bible is only a number of men's claims, if you would like to state that something is only a claim. Joseph Smith saw God, so it trumps interpretation of the Bible on the subject.
Originally posted by peejaydJohn 1:18 speaks past tense, so it limits nothing.
"No man hath seen God [b]at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."
John 1:18"Who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen."
I Timothy 6:16[/b]
I Timothy 6:14-1614 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.
Originally posted by peejaydLuke 24:39 was a statement to the physical resurrection, it denies the idea that the resurrection is not physical. Christ is stating that look, I am no longer dead, my spirit and body have been reunited as they should be.
* what is physical? God is a spirit, and what is a spirit?"See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye behold me having."
Luke 24:39* what physical form did Mr. Joseph Smith saw? 😉
We have argued about this a number of times. I believe having a spirit does not limit one to not having a physical form as well. God is a spirit only states that he has a spirit not that he does not have a physical form. Your interpretation is in error imo, and mine is in your opinion.
Originally posted by peejayd
* and you misinterpreted it... see here, you were appointed to go to, say what? uhm, let's say, to North Pole... yeah, you were appointed, you were ordered to go to North Pole... and you did not go... as simple as that...
Romans 9:19You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
If it is possible to resist the will of God, then He is not omnipotent.
Originally posted by peejayd
* wrong conclusion... let me rephrase: if it is possible for one to do something other than what God has appointed: it is the application of free will...* and there is something God cannot do... but that does not mean God is not Almighty and powerful...
That is exactly what it means.
Originally posted by peejayd
* that's because there is something God does not know... God does not know what decision you will make before you put it in your heart...
If God does not know everything, then He is not omniscient.
Originally posted by peejayd
* oh, bad example... you do not recognize the Bible as truth... let's go back to the verse, i see you are even fighting the grammar... "because" will always be the cause, and "therefore" will always be the effect...
In other words, you are attempting to redirect the argument, because my response to your question does not suit your argument:
I stated:
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
No one who recognizes the love of the truth as truth; does not believe what is false; and understands that rejecting the love of the truth will result in not being saved, would reject the love of the truth so as to not be saved.
To which you replied:
Originally posted by peejayd
* i'll set you as an example... you seemed to reject the truth in the Bible, but do you believe what you think is false? you tell me...
To which I replied:
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
[list=1][*]The only thing The Bible is evidence of is that ink sticks to paper. Hence, I "reject the love of the truth so as to not be saved," because I do not recognize The Bible as truth.[*]One does not hold a belief if he believes it to be false. The issue is not whether one believes his beliefs to be false, but whether one believes a belief that is false.[/list]
Originally posted by peejayd
* both verses are correct...
Two contradictory statements cannot both be correct.
Originally posted by peejayd
* time cannot govern God, because God governs time... oh, and God created time...
No, time is governed by the Laws of Physics.
Originally posted by Adam_PoEStop being a noob. If God wanted to force you to do His will He could, but He chooses not to. That is obvious and should be apparent, if you can't understand that don't bother continuing the argument.
If it is possible to resist the will of God, then He is not omnipotent.