Predestination

Originally posted by Nellinator
Stop being a noob. If God wanted to force you to do His will He could, but He chooses not to. That is obvious and should be apparent, if you can't understand that don't bother continuing the argument.

Romans 9:11-22

For though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."

Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!

For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."

So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."

So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"

On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?

Exactly, some are predestined to God's purpose, but yet it remains that the rest of people have a choice. This only proves that God can choose to control us (the clay), but He doesn't necessarily do it by allowing us free choice.

Originally posted by Nellinator
Exactly, some are predestined to God's purpose, but yet it remains that the rest of people have a choice. This only proves that God can choose to control us (the clay), but He doesn't necessarily do it by allowing us free choice.

[list=1][*]According to Romans 9:11-22, "it does not depend on the man who wills . . . but on God who has mercy," i.e. one does not have free will, rather things are predetermined by God.

[*]". . . it remains that the rest of the people have a choice," is contradicted by "He doesn't necessarily [allow] us free choice." You should make up your mind.[/list]

1. Going by your the capitalized points:
He will have compassion on who He will (ie. those that fulfill the requirements of receiving mercy plus those that are indeed presdestined).

2. Simple grammatical error:
He does control the fates of some people, others He does not control (ie. He allows these others free will).

Originally posted by Nellinator
1. Going by your the capitalized points:
He will have compassion on who He will (ie. those that fulfill the requirements of receiving mercy plus those that are indeed presdestined).

2. Simple grammatical error:
He does control the fates of some people, others He does not control (ie. He allows these others free will).

If God manipulates the free will of anyone, then He is not omnibenevolent. Surely, God is not evil.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
If it is possible to resist the will of God, then He is not omnipotent.

* no need to reiterate... i believe that there is something God cannot do...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
If God does not know everything, then He is not omniscient.

* irrelevant... i believe that there is something God does not know...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
In other words, you are attempting to redirect the argument, because my response to your question does not suit your argument:

* no, i just went back to basics...

Originally posted by peejayd
* firstly, the conjunctions that tells us which is which... "because" tells us of the cause and "therefore" tells us of the effect...

* secondly, the act of refusing is a very big proof of possessing the power of free will...

* thirdly, they did not believe what is false in the first place, they REFUSED to love the truth... it means that they DO know what is true and what is false... what they did was refused to love the truth... refusing to love the truth is different from believing what is false, so God is surely not redundant...

* fourthly, you still cannot refute the argument i gave...

* remember these points you did not even bother to tackle?

Originally posted by peejayd
Two contradictory statements cannot both be correct.

* those two statements do not contradict... two non-contradictory statements can be both correct...

Originally posted by peejayd
No, time is governed by the Laws of Physics.

* God is above and beyond the law of physics... 😉

Originally posted by peejayd
* no need to reiterate... i believe that there is something God cannot do...

* irrelevant... i believe that there is something God does not know...

Then we agree that God is neither omnipotent nor omniscient. Surely, such a god is not a god at all.

Originally posted by peejayd
* no, i just went back to basics...

To detract from your inability to successfully argue that one who recognizes the love of the truth as truth; does not believe what is false; and understands that rejecting the love of the truth will result in not being saved, would reject the love of the truth so as to not be saved.

Originally posted by peejayd
* remember these points you did not even bother to tackle?

I do not bother with points that are irrelevant.

Originally posted by peejayd
* those two statements do not contradict... two non-contradictory statements can be both correct...

One indicates that God exists inside of time, wheras the other indicates that God exists outside of time. Both statements cannot be true simultaneously.

Originally posted by peejayd
* God is above and beyond the law of physics... 😉

The Bible indicates that God exists inside of time, therefore He is subject to the Laws of Physics like everything else.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Then we agree that God is neither omnipotent nor omniscient. Surely, such a god is not a god at all.

* no, because people inject their wrong interpretations to the God in the Bible, thus introducing blatantly different character from what God really is...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
To detract from your inability to successfully argue that one who recognizes the love of the truth as truth; does not believe what is false; and understands that rejecting the love of the truth will result in not being saved, would reject the love of the truth so as to not be saved.

* nope... i really can't believe you are still stubbornly continuing your argument and thoroughly ignoring the context of the verse... if you don't believe in the Bible, that's fine... but please, use your sense in grammar...

"The coming of the lawless one by the activity of Satan will be with all power and with pretended signs and wonders,
And with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false,
So that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
II Thessalonians 2:9-12

* the "because" will always remain to be the cause; and the "therefore" will always remain to the effect... all you do is twist the Scripture but you obviously cannot refute it...

* and you do not understand the simple point i gave: how can you refuse to love the truth if you do not know the difference between truth and lies? just think about it...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
I do not bother with points that are irrelevant.

* not irrelevant... you just can't refute... because in the same verse you gave, completely destroys your own argument... ouch!

* the fact that people can refuse to love the truth is a big evidence of free will, my friend...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
One indicates that God exists inside of time, wheras the other indicates that God exists outside of time. Both statements cannot be true simultaneously.

* an eternal being can exist inside and outside of time...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
The Bible indicates that God exists inside of time, therefore He is subject to the Laws of Physics like everything else.

* you mentioned above: "the other indicates that God exists outside of time"... therefore, God can also NOT be subject to the Laws of Physics... unlike everything else... 😉

Originally posted by peejayd
* no, because people inject their wrong interpretations to the God in the Bible, thus introducing blatantly different character from what God really is...

Originally posted by peejayd
* no need to reiterate... i believe that there is something God cannot do...

* irrelevant... i believe that there is something God does not know...

If there is something God cannot do, He is not omnipotent. If there is something God does not know, He is not omniscient. It is pretty simple.

Originally posted by peejayd
* nope... i really can't believe you are still stubbornly continuing your argument and thoroughly ignoring the context of the verse... if you don't believe in the Bible, that's fine... but please, use your sense in grammar...

* the [b]"because" will always remain to be the cause; and the "therefore" will always remain to the effect... all you do is twist the Scripture but you obviously cannot refute it... [/B]

I am simply holding you to your argument. You have yet to successfully explain why one who recognizes the love of the truth as truth; does not believe what is false; and understands that rejecting the love of the truth will result in not being saved, would reject the love of the truth so as to not be saved.

Originally posted by peejayd
* and you do not understand the simple point i gave: how can you refuse to love the truth if you do not know the difference between truth and lies? just think about it...

In the same way that one can refuse to accept modern evolutionary theory, even though he is not educated in modern evolutionary theory, i.e. because he already believes what is false, e.g. Creationism, Intelligent Design, etc. or if you prefer “he accepts something else as truth.”

Originally posted by peejayd
* not irrelevant... you just can't refute... because in the same verse you gave, completely destroys your own argument... ouch!

* the fact that people can refuse to love the truth is a big evidence of free will, my friend...

[list=1][*]The “points” that I did not address in your previous post are not arguments. They are declarative statements that you bear the burden of proof to substantiate. You have yet to do so, hence why they are irrelevant.

[*]The verse in question is only one of seven premises for my argument. Even if we presume that this premise does not support my conclusion, the soundness of my argument is not affected.

[*]The verse in question is consistent with the six other verses I posted which indicate that no one has free will.

[*]If their actions are foreknowable, i.e. predetermined, then they are not really exercising free choice, they simply think they are, while going through the motions.[/list]

Originally posted by peejayd
* an eternal being can exist inside and outside of time...

Another positive claim unsubstantiated; prove it.

Originally posted by peejayd
* you mentioned above: "the other indicates that God exists outside of time"... therefore, God can also NOT be subject to the Laws of Physics... unlike everything else... 😉

The preposition in question is a reference to a post in which you claimed a verse indicates that God exists outside of time:

Originally posted by peejayd
* and Psalms 90:2 indicates that God is eternal, thus He is outside of time as well... 😉

I never acknowledged that the verse in question indeed indicates that God exists outside of time, but that according to you the verse in question indicates that God exists outside of time, and if we presume this to be the case, then the verse I posted and the verse you posted cannot be true simultaneously.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
If there is something God cannot do, He is not omnipotent. If there is something God does not know, He is not omniscient. It is pretty simple.

* yes... haven't you realized yet that we are in the same page in this matter?

* what i argue about is your statement that "a god is not a god at all" because the Bible never even tells us that God is omnipotent nor omniscient, or even omnipresent... hence, introducing a blatantly different character from what God really is...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
I am simply holding you to your argument. You have yet to successfully explain why one who recognizes the love of the truth as truth; does not believe what is false; and understands that rejecting the love of the truth will result in not being saved, would reject the love of the truth so as to not be saved.

* it is an individual's power to choose... he can choose the truth or reject it...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
In the same way that one can refuse to accept modern evolutionary theory, even though he is not educated in modern evolutionary theory, i.e. because he already believes what is false, e.g. Creationism, Intelligent Design, etc. or if you prefer “he accepts something else as truth.”

* if he accepts something else as truth, then it only shows that there are other options he chose to ignore...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
[list=1][*]The “points” that I did not address in your previous post are not arguments. They are declarative statements that you bear the burden of proof to substantiate. You have yet to do so, hence why they are irrelevant.

[*]The verse in question is only one of seven premises for my argument. Even if we presume that this premise does not support my conclusion, the soundness of my argument is not affected.

[*]The verse in question is consistent with the six other verses I posted which indicate that no one has free will.

[*]If their actions are foreknowable, i.e. predetermined, then they are not really exercising free choice, they simply think they are, while going through the motions.[/list]

* seven Bible verses taken out of context...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Another positive claim unsubstantiated; prove it.

* errr... because of the word, "eternal"... you tell me now how an eternal being exist only inside of time... eternal means no beginning and no end...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
The preposition in question is a reference to a post in which you claimed a verse indicates that God exists outside of time:

I never acknowledged that the verse in question indeed indicates that God exists outside of time, but that according to you the verse in question indicates that God exists outside of time, and if we presume this to be the case, then the verse I posted and the verse you posted cannot be true simultaneously.

* are you only ignoring the verse i gave? read it again...

"Before the mountains were brought forth, and thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from eternity to eternity thou art God."
Psalms 90:2

* God is eternal... and an eternal being, who exists from eternity to eternity, can not only exist inside of time but outside as well... 😉

Originally posted by peejayd
* yes... haven't you realized yet that we are in the same page in this matter?

* what i argue about is your statement that "a god is not a god at all" because the Bible never even tells us that God is omnipotent nor omniscient, or even omnipresent... hence, introducing a blatantly different character from what God really is...

If God is not omniscient, then God does not know everything. If God does not know everything, then it is possible to know something that God does not know. If one knows something that God does not know, then he is greater than God. If it is possible to be greater than God, then He is not much of a god at all.

If God is not omnipotent, then God cannot do everything. If God cannot do everything, then it is possible to do something that God cannot do. If one does something that God cannot do, then he is greater than God. If it is possible to be greater than God, then He is not much of a god at all.

Originally posted by peejayd
* it is an individual's power to choose... he can choose the truth or reject it...

That does not answer the question, “Why would one who recognizes the love of the truth as truth; does not believe what is false; and understands that rejecting the love of the truth will result in not being saved; reject the love of the truth so as to not be saved?”

Originally posted by peejayd
* if he accepts something else as truth, then it only shows that there are other options he chose to ignore...

Why does he ignore other options? Because he already believes what is false.

Originally posted by peejayd
* seven Bible verses taken out of context...

I already addressed the context of the verses.

Originally posted by peejayd
* errr... because of the word, "eternal"... you tell me now how an eternal being exist only inside of time... eternal means no beginning and no end...

I did not ask you to substantiate the nature of an eternal being. I asked you to substantiate that God is an eternal being.

Originally posted by peejayd
* are you only ignoring the verse i gave? read it again...

Psalm 90:2

Before the mountains were born or You gave birth to the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.

This verse does not indicate that God is an eternal being. Rather, it indicates that there were no gods before Him, and that there will be no gods after Him, i.e. for the whole of eternity, He will be the only God; not that He will be for the whole of eternity.

Originally posted by peejayd
* God is eternal... and an eternal being, who exists from eternity to eternity, can not only exist inside of time but outside as well... 😉

[list=1][*]An eternal being exists outside of time by definition.

[*]The Bible indicates that God exists inside of time as:

[list][*]He acts as a causal agent in the world.

[*]He experiences time at an accelerated rate.[/list][/list]

Originally posted by Marchello
BOTTOM-LINE: God will do whatever He wants according to the SOVEREIGNTY of His OWN WILL...and He doesn't care one wit what His CREATION thinks or objects to.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
[QUOTE=8352055]Originally posted by Marchello
[B]BOTTOM-LINE: God will do whatever He wants according to the SOVEREIGNTY of His OWN WILL...and He doesn't care one wit what His CREATION thinks or objects to.

Marchello
God will do whatever He wants

So will spoiled children.

Originally posted by Alliance
I don't think it happens.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
If God is not omniscient, then God does not know everything. If God does not know everything, then it is possible to know something that God does not know. If one knows something that God does not know, then he is greater than God. If it is possible to be greater than God, then He is not much of a god at all.

If God is not omnipotent, then God cannot do everything. If God cannot do everything, then it is possible to do something that God cannot do. If one does something that God cannot do, then he is greater than God. If it is possible to be greater than God, then He is not much of a god at all.

* way out of line... it is possible for someone to know something [at first] that God does not know...

"And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded not, neither came it into my mind."
Jeremiah 7:31

"And have built the high places of Baal, to burn their sons in the fire for burnt-offerings unto Baal; which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:"
Jeremiah 19:5

* but, obviously, that does not mean that person is greater than God...

* it is also possible for someone to do something that God cannot do...

"In hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before times eternal;"
Titus 1:2

"That by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we may have a strong encouragement, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us:"
Hebrews 6:18

* but, obviously, that does not mean that person is greater than God...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
That does not answer the question, “Why would one who recognizes the love of the truth as truth; does not believe what is false; and understands that rejecting the love of the truth will result in not being saved; reject the love of the truth so as to not be saved?”

* your question is not even relevant to the verse you, yourself, had presented... and you did not even tackle how can those people refuse something if they do not have free will...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Why does he ignore other options? Because he already believes what is false.

* wrong, you just said he accepts something else as truth...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
I already addressed the context of the verses.

* http://www.w3.org/Protocols/ ??? just admit it, you've taken those verses out of context...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
I did not ask you to substantiate the nature of an eternal being. I asked you to substantiate that God is an eternal being.

* God does not age... He exists from eternity to eternity...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
This verse does not indicate that God is an eternal being. Rather, it indicates that there were no gods before Him, and that there will be no gods after Him, i.e. for the whole of eternity, He will be the only God; not that He will be for the whole of eternity.

* it is stubbornness to say that God is not eternal according to Psalms 90:2... there is no indication of any other gods in the verse (even prior or after the verse)... the translation may be eternal or everlasting, one thing is for sure, according to the verse, God has no beginning nor end... stop twisting Bible verses, it might become a habit...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
[list=1][*]An eternal being exists outside of time by definition.

[*]The Bible indicates that God exists inside of time as:

[list][*]He acts as a causal agent in the world.

[*]He experiences time at an accelerated rate.[/list][/list]

* again, stubbornly ignoring Psalms 90:2... you only accept what you want to accept... 😉

Originally posted by peejayd
* way out of line... it is possible for someone to know something [at first] that God does not know...

* but, obviously, that does not mean that person is greater than God...

* it is also possible for someone to do something that God cannot do...

* but, obviously, that does not mean that person is greater than God...

That is exactly what it means.

Originally posted by peejayd
* your question is not even relevant to the verse you, yourself, had presented... and you did not even tackle how can those people refuse something if they do not have free will...

In other words, you cannot explain why one who recognizes the love of the truth as truth; does not believe what is false; and understands that rejecting the love of the truth will result in not being saved; would reject the love of the truth so as to not be saved.

Originally posted by peejayd
* wrong, you just said he accepts something else as truth...

Do not be stupid; If one accepts something as truth that is not truth, then he believes what is false.

Originally posted by peejayd
* http://www.w3.org/Protocols/ ??? just admit it, you've taken those verses out of context...

I already addressed the context of the verses in question. Just accept that you could not successfully argue them then, and that you cannot successfully argue them now.

Originally posted by peejayd
* God does not age... He exists from eternity to eternity...

Substantiate that God does not age.

Originally posted by peejayd
* it is stubbornness to say that God is not eternal according to Psalms 90:2... there is no indication of any other gods in the verse (even prior or after the verse)... the translation may be eternal or everlasting, one thing is for sure, according to the verse, God has no beginning nor end... stop twisting Bible verses, it might become a habit...

Nowhere does the verse state that God has no beginning or end:

Psalm 90:2

Before the mountains were born or You gave birth to the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, You are God.

The verse states that for the whole of eternity He will be God, not that He will be for the whole of eternity.

Originally posted by peejayd
* again, stubbornly ignoring Psalms 90:2... you only accept what you want to accept... 😉

In other words, you cannot substantiate that an eternal being who exists outside of time by definition exists inside of time, or that God exists outside of time.

Wow Adam, that was really great!

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
That is exactly what it means.

* this is stupid... a person who can lie cannot be greater than God who cannot lie... because He is the one who created him...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
In other words, you cannot explain why one who recognizes the love of the truth as truth; does not believe what is false; and understands that rejecting the love of the truth will result in not being saved; would reject the love of the truth so as to not be saved.

* this is nice, who have just diverted the topic at hand... nice job... but still, your original argument hangs in the balance... the Bible verse you, yourself, presented just utterly destroyed your original argument that there is no free will...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Do not be stupid; If one accepts something as truth that is not truth, then he believes what is false.

* truth to whom? false to whom? it only shows how biased you really are... and that statement of yours is stupid...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
I already addressed the context of the verses in question. Just accept that you could not successfully argue them then, and that you cannot successfully argue them now.

* i believe i refuted your points squarely, go to that link you gave and read it again... you are the one who's grasping ropes...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Substantiate that God does not age.

* in Psalms 90:2, God exists from eternity to eternity... no one can exist from eternity to eternity if he is not eternal... think about it... add these verses:

"But now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith:"
Romans 16:26

"And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the Lord, the everlasting God."
Genesis 21:33

"The eternal God is thy dwelling-place, And underneath are the everlasting arms. And he thrust out the enemy from before thee, And said, Destroy."
Deuteronomy 33:27

"Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding."
Isaiah 40:28

"Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen."
I Timothy 1:17

* an eternal being does not age... hence, cannot only exist inside of time but outside as well...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
[b]Nowhere does the verse state that God has no beginning or end:[/B]

* Psalms 90:2, plus the 5 verses i posted above...

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
The verse states that for the whole of eternity He will be God, not that He will be for the whole of eternity.

* yeah, right... 😕

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
In other words, you cannot substantiate that an eternal being who exists outside of time by definition exists inside of time, or that God exists outside of time.

* i just did... 😉

Originally posted by peejayd
* this is stupid... a person who can lie cannot be greater than God who cannot lie... because He is the one who created him...

One can be greater than his parents, despite having been created by them.

Originally posted by peejayd
* this is nice, who have just diverted the topic at hand... nice job... but still, your original argument hangs in the balance... the Bible verse you, yourself, presented just utterly destroyed your original argument that there is no free will...

You are diverting the subject to detract from your inability to successfully argue, "One who recognizes the love of the truth as truth; does not believe what is false; and understands that rejecting the love of the truth will result in not being saved; would reject the love of the truth so as to not be saved."

Originally posted by peejayd
* truth to whom? false to whom? it only shows how biased you really are... and that statement of yours is stupid...

For the purposes of this argument, the objective truth is the truth one must accept so as to be saved.

Originally posted by peejayd
* i believe i refuted your points squarely, go to that link you gave and read it again... you are the one who's grasping ropes...

The consideration of the verses in question within the context of the inclusion of additional verses changes nothing.

Originally posted by peejayd
* in Psalms 90:2, God exists from eternity to eternity... no one can exist from eternity to eternity if he is not eternal... think about it... add these verses:

"But now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith:"
Romans 16:26

"And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the Lord, the everlasting God."
Genesis 21:33

"The eternal God is thy dwelling-place, And underneath are the everlasting arms. And he thrust out the enemy from before thee, And said, Destroy."
Deuteronomy 33:27

"Hast thou not known? hast thou not heard, that the everlasting God, the Lord, the Creator of the ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary? there is no searching of his understanding."
Isaiah 40:28

"Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen."
I Timothy 1:17

* an eternal being does not age... hence, cannot only exist inside of time but outside as well...

[list=1][*]Psalm 90:2 states that for the whole of eternity, He will be God, not that He will be for the whole of eternity.

[*]Even if we presume that God is an eternal being, it does not follow from this that He can exist both inside and outside of time, as an eternal being by definition exists only outside of time.

[*]Even if we presume that God is an eternal being, it does not follow from this that He does not age, which is what I asked you to substantiate in the first place.[/list]

Originally posted by peejayd
* Psalms 90:2, plus the 5 verses i posted above...

By all means, indicate where Psalm 90:2 specifically states “God has no beginning or end.”

Originally posted by peejayd
* yeah, right... 😕

Yes, I am right.

Originally posted by peejayd
* i just did... 😉

Simply stating, “An eternal being who exists outside of time by definition can exist inside of time,” is not evidence that an eternal being who exists outside of time by definition exists outside of time.

Nor is stating, “God exists outside of time,” evidence that God exists outside of time.