Who is stupid, again?
Originally posted by Thundar
If one is not omnsicient, then they won't know what is/isn't possible to do with omniscience; skip common sense, and redirect oneself to stupidity.
If an omniscient being knows that you will put on a pair of socks of a particular color, then you have to put on the color that the omniscient being knows that you will put on.
For if it is possible for you to put on a color other than the color that the omniscient being knows that you will put on, then the omniscient being is not truly omniscient.
However, if it is not possible for you to put on a color other than the color that the omniscient being knows that you will put on, then you do not have free will, only the semblance thereof.
Re: Who is stupid, again?
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
If an omniscient being knows that you will put on a pair of socks of a particular color, then you have to put on the color that the omniscient being knows that you will put on.For if it is possible for you to put on a color other than the color that the omniscient being knows that you will put on, then the omniscient being is not truly omniscient.
However, if it is not possible for you to put on a color other than the color that the omniscient being knows that you will put on, then you do not have free will, only the semblance thereof.
Exactly my point in my other thread....I thought that perhaps if Alternate Realities exist, then it may be possible for both God to see the future and for Free Will to be true....however, let me not derail the thread like I do so often....
As I've said, God isn't bound by the human constraints of time. God is there the moment you are about to choose the sock, the moment that you choose it, and the moment where you will be after choosing it.
Furthermore, note that, with the sock example, God is not controlling the decision. One is perfectly able to pick the sock that one prefers--one has the ability to exercise one's will in choosing the sock--while someone still knows what one will choose.
Suppose that we were to take this a step farther: God, from before there was time, has known everything, including everything that He would do. Now, if God has known everything He would do, He certainly can't not do them--does God lack free will? Such a notion is preposterous.
The "omniscience paradox" falls victim to the assumption that God is like man and constrained by such things as paradoxes.
Originally posted by FeceMan
The "omniscience paradox" falls victim to the assumption that God is like man and constrained by such things as paradoxes.
Exactly. And it also makes the illogical assumption that one with limited knowledge, can understand what can and can't be done with omniscience. This argument unto itself destroys the logic behind the entire "omniscience paradox."
Originally posted by FeceMan
As I've said, God isn't bound by the human constraints of time.
Oh no ?
If God is bound to the human constraints of anger, punishment, judgement, jealousy, and wrath, then how could he not be constraint to a much more powerful force such as time ? 😕
I mean, he's even constraint to the construct of Gender ! 😱
Originally posted by FeceMan
God is there the moment you are about to choose the sock, the moment that you choose it, and the moment where you will be after choosing it.
If God exists in all aspects of time and is unchanging, then how does he act differently from one moment of time to another ?
He will flood the earth, send plagues, get angry, be pleased, get angry again, be pleased again, decide to send his son or his avatar to earth to be sacraficed, communicate with humans, etc.
It is obvious that God makes choices, and comes up with different solutions and attempts at governing mankind...
It is obvious that God's mood changes.....for a mood to change, Time must be present and active...
How does a God who is unchanging and not dependent on Time, ACT in the context of time ?
He can't do that if he is a solid being who does not exist within time.....
Originally posted by FeceMan
Furthermore, note that, with the sock example, God is not controlling the decision. One is perfectly able to pick the sock that one prefers--one has the ability to exercise one's will in choosing the sock--while someone still knows what one will choose.
No one said God is controlling it.....
What we are saying is that if God knows whats going to happen, then that renders all other possibilities non-existant, because there is a ZERO percent chance that all other events will occur.
Choice cannot be present is there is only a ZERO percent chance of all other events occuring....
By definition, Choice requires options and other possibilities.....
Originally posted by FeceMan
Suppose that we were to take this a step farther: God, from before there was time, has known everything, including everything that He would do. Now, if God has known everything He would do, He certainly can't not do them--does God lack free will? Such a notion is preposterous.
If God does not exist within the context of time, then how could he exist in a beginning, middle, and end ? 🤨
He could not "know" what he "will" do or "has done" if he is not dependent on time....
Which is it Feceman ?
Does God exist within or depend on time, OR NOT ?
Originally posted by FeceMan
The "omniscience paradox" falls victim to the assumption that God is like man and constrained by such things as paradoxes.
IF God is like a man in the sense that he experiences anger, pleasure, jealousy, wrath, and projects judgement, than how is it wrong to argue that he is ALSO like a man in the sense that he exists within the bounds of time ?
Originally posted by Thundar
Exactly. And it also makes the illogical assumption that one with limited knowledge, can understand what can and can't be done with omniscience. This argument unto itself destroys the logic behind the entire "omniscience paradox."
you are confusing omniscience and omnipotence Thundar
omnipotence could (in theory) allow one to defy logic but omniscience does not
Originally posted by Thundar
*Umm..mr. Urizen..unless you're omnisicient...you don't have a complete knowledge of what omnipotence means or represents..my friend..😉
When did I claim to have a complete knowledge of omnipotence ?
All I stated were the definitions of omnipotence and omniscience..you do not need one to have the other....
Since NEITHER EXIST....i don't see the problem.
* omniscience - unlimited knowledge, knows all
* omnipotence - unlimited power, can do all
* what if these characteristics people attribute to God is not Biblical... maybe we would be closer to understanding His will...
* human beings are given by God the gift of free will... the power to choose... so humans are not like puppets or remote-controlled robots...
* re: predestination... God desires all people to be saved, and God is the savior of both believers and unbelievers/non-believers... many are called (the desire of God to save) but few are chosen (predestinates)... 😉
Originally posted by peejayd
* human beings are given by God the gift of free will... the power to choose... so humans are not like puppets or remote-controlled robots...
No one has free will according to The Bible:
Acts 13:48When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
Ephesians 1:4-5Just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love, He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will . . .
Jude 1:4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
Romans 8:29-30For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.
Romans 9:11-22For though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, it was said to her, "THE OLDER WILL SERVE THE YOUNGER."
Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."
What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? May it never be!
For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "FOR THIS VERY PURPOSE I RAISED YOU UP, TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE EARTH."
So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.
You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?
Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?
What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?
2 Thessalonians 2:11-12For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.
2 Timothy 1:9Who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity . . .
Originally posted by FeceMan
As I've said, God isn't bound by the human constraints of time. God is there the moment you are about to choose the sock, the moment that you choose it, and the moment where you will be after choosing it.
It follows from this that God knows whether or not one will go to hell before he is created. A God who would create someone knowing that he will go to hell is not omnibenevolent.
Originally posted by FeceMan
Furthermore, note that, with the sock example, God is not controlling the decision.
No one stated that God is controlling the decision. Rather, that the action is fixed by nature of being foreknowable.
Originally posted by FeceMan
One is perfectly able to pick the sock that one prefers--one has the ability to exercise one's will in choosing the sock--while someone still knows what one will choose.
No, it appears to the individual that he has the ability to exercise his will with regards to choosing which sock to put on, but the decision is predetermined. He is simply going through the motions.
Originally posted by FeceMan
Suppose that we were to take this a step farther: God, from before there was time, has known everything, including everything that He would do. Now, if God has known everything He would do, He certainly can't not do them--does God lack free will? Such a notion is preposterous.The "omniscience paradox" falls victim to the assumption that God is like man and constrained by such things as paradoxes.
God is necessarily constrained by paradoxes, but characteristics of God, i.e. omnibenevolence, omnipotence, omniscience, etc. certainly are.
Originally posted by Thundar
Exactly. And it also makes the illogical assumption that one with limited knowledge, can understand what can and can't be done with omniscience. This argument unto itself destroys the logic behind the entire "omniscience paradox."
This is not a sound argument, it is a tautology.
Originally posted by Thundar
How do you know omniscience isn't omnipotence?
Because they are two fundamentally different characteristics.
Originally posted by Thundar
*Umm..mr. Urizen..unless you're omnisicient...you don't have a complete knowledge of what omnipotence means or represents..my friend..😉
How do you figure?
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Because they are two fundamentally different characteristics.
From our limited perspective they are. Unless of course you're alluding that your understanding of "omiscience" and "omnipotence", is coming from an unlimited view and/or understanding of both terms.
Originally posted by Adam_PoE
How do you figure?
My opinion is based on the limited knowledge I have acquired in life. Based on this limited knowledge, logic, and common sense..I have come to the conclusion that as a limited being, it is impossible for me to ascertain what is possible for one to do with omniscience, since I myself do not possess omniscience. That was the basic argument being made, and this is why the omniscience paradox is nothing more than an invalid-illogical pressuposition.