Predestination

Originally posted by Thundar
My opinion is based on the limited knowledge I have acquired in life. Based on this limited knowledge, logic, and common sense..I have come to the conclusion that as a limited being, it is impossible for me to ascertain what is possible for one to do with omniscience, since I myself do not possess omniscience. That was the basic argument being made, and this is why the omniscience paradox is nothing more than an invalid-illogical pressuposition.

I always wondered where exactly the whole "made in God's image" comes into it. We all get the "we are vastly below God in everything department"... which seems like a waste. I build a car in the image of another car, well I expect it to be able to do similar, if not the same as the first. If it couldn't then it wouldn't truly be in the image of the first, except in the most cosmetic of ways - that is it might look like it but not much else.

God is omniscient, we aren't, and apparently we have so limited a knowledge base we can't even really imagine what being omniscient is like, or really understand it. And as a result, our limited knowledge means we have to scratch our heads and with a rueful smile say "God works in mysterious ways. Mysterious ways beyond us simple humans crafted in God's image. Just not the part the image that has any power or understanding and so forth"

As I've said, God isn't bound by the human constraints of time. God is there the moment you are about to choose the sock, the moment that you choose it, and the moment where you will be after choosing it.

Furthermore, note that, with the sock example, God is not controlling the decision. One is perfectly able to pick the sock that one prefers--one has the ability to exercise one's will in choosing the sock--while someone still knows what one will choose.

Suppose that we were to take this a step farther: God, from before there was time, has known everything, including everything that He would do. Now, if God has known everything He would do, He certainly can't not do them--does God lack free will? Such a notion is preposterous.

If God is indeed like that... what exactly is the purpose of existence? If he knows how the cookie will crumble... why go through this whole business? After all, apparently he will get huffy (and knows he will) and will eventually decide to flush the whole human project down the toilet, catching up those people who ended up on the right side (as he knew they would) and so on. As an eternal being it wouldn't have taken any time what so ever, so it just seems bemusing he/she/it went with this middle portion of the game at all. After all, he/she/it knew what would happen... just kind of makes the whole existence part kind of superfluous.

Like how when someone tells you the ending of a book - the Butler did it with the candlestick because Lord Bushelwaif was having an affair with his the stableboy - kind takes away the imperative to read the middle part. Unless its a great book you want to read again and again (thought God is only reading us once.)

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
No one has free will according to The Bible:

* nice try... those verses refer to the members of the Church, and NOT all people... all people have free will according to The Bible:

"I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live,"
Deuteronomy 30:19

Originally posted by peejayd
* nice try... those verses refer to the members of the Church, and NOT all people... all people have free will according to The Bible:

"I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live,"
Deuteronomy 30:19

that quote has nothing to do with free will

it seems to be talking about where the person adressed wants to live or die

* there are options... the power to choose... plus, if there is no free will, like what mr.adam_poe had said, why is there sin? 😉

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
I always wondered where exactly the whole "made in God's image" comes into it. We all get the "we are vastly below God in everything department"... which seems like a waste. I build a car in the image of another car, well I expect it to be able to do similar, if not the same as the first. If it couldn't then it wouldn't truly be in the image of the first, except in the most cosmetic of ways - that is it might look like it but not much else.

God is omniscient, we aren't, and apparently we have so limited a knowledge base we can't even really imagine what being omniscient is like, or really understand it. And as a result, our limited knowledge means we have to scratch our heads and with a rueful smile say "God works in mysterious ways. Mysterious ways beyond us simple humans crafted in God's image. Just not the part the image that has any power or understanding and so forth"

If God is indeed like that... what exactly is the purpose of existence? If he knows how the cookie will crumble... why go through this whole business? After all, apparently he will get huffy (and knows he will) and will eventually decide to flush the whole human project down the toilet, catching up those people who ended up on the right side (as he knew they would) and so on. As an eternal being it wouldn't have taken any time what so ever, so it just seems bemusing he/she/it went with this middle portion of the game at all. After all, he/she/it knew what would happen... just kind of makes the whole existence part kind of superfluous.

Like how when someone tells you the ending of a book - the Butler did it with the candlestick because Lord Bushelwaif was having an affair with his the stableboy - kind takes away the imperative to read the middle part. Unless its a great book you want to read again and again (thought God is only reading us once.)

*mr. Imperial..the simple answer to all of your questions...is "God is love"...

*We may not understand everything about him, but he has made it easy for all of us to understand that he is loving...😉

[EDIT]Forgot mr. Imperial, ellipses, and put winky smily in the wrong place.
[EDIT]Left in bold bracket.

[EDIT] meant "but" not "be"

Originally posted by Thundar
My opinion is based on the limited knowledge I have acquired in life. Based on this limited knowledge, logic, and common sense..I have come to the conclusion that as a limited being, it is impossible for me to ascertain what is possible for one to do with omniscience, since I myself do not possess omniscience. That was the basic argument being made, and this is why the omniscience paradox is nothing more than an invalid-illogical pressuposition.

As I stated previously, this is not a sound argument, it is a tautology.

Originally posted by peejayd
* nice try... those verses refer to the members of the Church, and NOT all people... all people have free will according to The Bible:

"I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live,"
Deuteronomy 30:19

[list=1][*]Acts 13:48 addresses Gentiles, and 2 Thessalonians 2:11-12 addresses non-Christians.

[*]I posted seven verses in which God predetermines who will believe in Him, who will not believe in Him, who He will glorify, who He will condemn, on whom He will have mercy, etc. and you have posted one verse that does not even address free will.[/list]

Nice try.

Originally posted by peejayd
* nice try... those verses refer to the members of the Church, and NOT all people... all people have free will according to The Bible:

"I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live,"
Deuteronomy 30:19

Originally posted by Thundar
*mr. Imperial..the simple answer to all of your questions...is "God is love"...

*We may not understand everything about him, but he has made it easy for all of us to understand that he is loving...😉

1) I'm sure you're smart enough to know that isn't true
2) No he really hasn't

Originally posted by FeceMan
Discuss.

I've read through this whole thread, and seen some good points by many people searching to define God and His reasoning behind our lives.

This is a normal human desire, however it is usually difficult to come to an absolute answer if God's word isn't a good enough source of reliable information for you.

Yes, I believe in predestination.

The Lord says that He knew us and had a plan and a purpose for us before we were even born. Even in our mother's womb. He knows the amount of hairs on our heads.

I would assume then that He knows who will or won't accept His Son as their saviour and live to follow His will. Meaning He knows who will and won't go to heaven.

This does and does not contradict free will. It does in our human way of thinking, because of course an action cannot truly be free if it's known beforehand, right?

Well, it's not known to us. We still make our choices, oblivious to him knowing about them, oblivious to Him in many people's cases.

I wanna toss out the "sock analogy" and things like that and have you think of it this way:

Say we conducted a study on a 16 year old virgin male.

We put him in the most comfortable, relaxing environment and bring in a hot, sexy chick. Be she Vida Guerra, or Adriana Lima, or whoever you prefer. The point is that she is who the kid, Scotty we'll call him, would be totally smitten with and also sexually turned on by.

The girl tells him that she wants to make all his fantasies come true. She says that they are safe, alone, and can take all of the time that they need. She begins to place his hands on her shoulders, neck, and breasts.

STOP.

Scotty is a normal, healthy, heterosexual male teenager.

Now if you had to make a guess, will Scotty have sex with her?

I think we'd all be smart to guess that the answer is: yes.

Now the point:

Did we take Scotty's free will away? Did we make his choices for him?

No. Of course not. But we knew what he would choose.

That may be a poor example, but that's the best way to explain it.

God knows what people will do, he just doesn't stop them from doing it. So they do in fact have free will. He's just read the script before seeing the film.

So then, is this a contradiction of God's word to : "go, and make disciples of all nations."?

If some are born to go to hell, then why preach to them? Why tell them how the love of Jesus, the Holy Spirit inside me has changed my life?

Because people are sheep and goats. Some can be led and shown the better way. And some will never budge, preferring their own sensibilites and limited grasp of the meaning of their own lives.

But we preach to all, as called by Christ, because we don't know if the person is a sheep or a goat.

Many times, it's just planting a seed. Somebody or something, many years later even, may come along to water and grow that faith.

(I tend to look at Christianity as a whole and "God's mysterious ways" as being like George Bailey in It's A Wonderfull Life... in that you never know how one choice or action, or one thing that the Lord allows to happen to you in your life.... may be responsible for something great later on.)

In any event, salvation is predestined, but only to God's knowledge.

Therefore, we live as though every single person can be saved. As far as our knowledge is concerned, they can be. 🙂

Originally posted by sithsaber408
That may be a poor example, but that's the best way to explain it.

Oh no, it's a good example. But it would be a GREAT example if you finished it off with: "later, she'll 'regret' it and decide they both have to become born again virgins and get married before they can do it again."

Originally posted by Capt_Fantastic
Oh no, it's a good example. But it would be a GREAT example if you finished it off with: "later, she'll 'regret' it and decide they both have to become born again virgins and get married before they can do it again."

ZinG!

L 😂 L Z!!!

I almost added something to that effect, but I was waiting for one of you guys to get me for it first.

Yeah, the example goes against some of the things that I advocate, but the theory's sound.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
As I stated previously, this is not a sound argument, it is a tautology.

Only if we define "tautology" using the limited information that you and I have been given. Unfortunately, we have no ability to determine if what I stated was tautological beyond this scope.

Originally posted by peejayd
* there are options... the power to choose... plus, if there is no free will, like what mr.adam_poe had said, why is there sin? 😉

Because Adam and Eve ate the apple?

Because apparently every person since then is born in sin. We are sinners till we ask for forgiveness. We are damned till we ask for forgiveness. Which I think is a bit against free will, humanity still carrying around Adam and Eve's original sins.

Shouldn't, if we have free will, be given the chance to eat the fruit ourselves, rather then be defined by the fact two people in the incredibly distant past did it for us? Wouldn't what Pelagius said make more sense? We aren't actually born in sin, we don't have sin in us till we consciously choose to do so? That is we are already saved till we do something to stop it, rather then the other way round - we are damned till we do something about it? Really that aspect just seems to insure all people believe they have no choice but to become a Christian - "humanity can't help but be sinful. You are all sinners, whether you know it or not. But we can save you through Jesus."

*mr. Imperial..the simple answer to all of your questions...is "God is love"...

Not sure what that has to do with us being made in his image but with apparently no real relation to what he is or can do or know other then the claim we will live after death, but ok.

*We may not understand everything about him, but he has made it easy for all of us to understand that he is loving...

God, mysterious ways. I'm with yah. 😉

Originally posted by sithsaber408
I wanna toss out the "sock analogy" and things like that and have you think of it this way:

Of course you would; You are attempting to redefine the argument, because you cannot refute the argument that has been presented.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Say we conducted a study on a 16 year old virgin male.

We put him in the most comfortable, relaxing environment and bring in a hot, sexy chick. Be she Vida Guerra, or Adriana Lima, or whoever you prefer. The point is that she is who the kid, Scotty we'll call him, would be totally smitten with and also sexually turned on by.

The girl tells him that she wants to make all his fantasies come true. She says that they are safe, alone, and can take all of the time that they need. She begins to place his hands on her shoulders, neck, and breasts.

STOP.

Scotty is a normal, healthy, heterosexual male teenager.

Now if you had to make a guess, will Scotty have sex with her?

I think we'd all be smart to guess that the answer is: yes.

Now the point:

Did we take Scotty's free will away? Did we make his choices for him?

No. Of course not. But we knew what he would choose.

That may be a poor example, but that's the best way to explain it.

Not only is this a poor example, but it also comitts the logic fallacy of False Analogy.

In this instance, "we" do not know what the boy will do. Rather, we infer what the boy will do based soley on information we already know about sexually-peaked, heterosexual boys, etc.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
God knows what people will do, he just doesn't stop them from doing it. So they do in fact have free will. He's just read the script before seeing the film.

It is evident by the nature of the existence of a "script" that events are fixed and unchangeable, i.e. free will does not exist.

Originally posted by sithsaber408
So then, is this a contradiction of God's word to : "go, and make disciples of all nations."?

Yes.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Because Adam and Eve ate the apple?

Because apparently every person since then is born in sin. We are sinners till we ask for forgiveness. We are damned till we ask for forgiveness. Which I think is a bit against free will, humanity still carrying around Adam and Eve's original sins.

Shouldn't, if we have free will, be given the chance to eat the fruit ourselves, rather then be defined by the fact two people in the incredibly distant past did it for us? Wouldn't what Pelagius said make more sense? We aren't actually born in sin, we don't have sin in us till we consciously choose to do so? That is we are already saved till we do something to stop it, rather then the other way round - we are damned till we do something about it? Really that aspect just seems to insure all people believe they have no choice but to become a Christian - "humanity can't help but be sinful. You are all sinners, whether you know it or not. But we can save you through Jesus."

I understand what you mean. I originally had difficulty reconciling the whole original sin thing myself(in fact I still somewhat do). But I've come to the understanding(limited albeit) that choice was necessary, in order to allow man to have a truly loving relationship with his creator.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
Not sure what that has to do with us being made in his image but with apparently no real relation to what he is or can do or know other then the claim we will live after death, but ok.

I know I kind of oversimplifed it, but that really is it in a nutshell. God is love. His very nature is a loving one. If you can accept this, then you will have an easier time accepting that we are indeed made in his image, and that we are created for the distinct purpose of being able to share this love and affection with him.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
God, mysterious ways. I'm with yah. 😉

True. I think that sometimes though, we make him more mysterious and difficult to understand than he actually is.

Originally posted by Thundar
Only if we define "tautology" using the limited information that you and I have been given. Unfortunately, we have no ability to determine if what I stated was tautological beyond this scope.

You just responded to an accusation of tautological rationalization with another tautological rationalization.

Do you even know what it is that you are saying?

Originally posted by sithsaber408
Say we conducted a study on a 16 year old virgin male.

Is he Gay or Straight ?

Originally posted by sithsaber408
We put him in the most comfortable, relaxing environment and bring in a hot, sexy chick. Be she Vida Guerra, or Adriana Lima, or whoever you prefer.

droolio

How about Beyonce ? Or Carmen Electra ??? droolio

Originally posted by sithsaber408
The point is that she is who the kid, Scotty we'll call him, would be totally smitten with and also sexually turned on by.

How do you know that ?

How do you know he is straight ? You have no way of truly knowing what goes on in his mind. If he is homo (like 100% homo), then he will not be turned on.....

Originally posted by sithsaber408
The girl tells him that she wants to make all his fantasies come true. She says that they are safe, alone, and can take all of the time that they need. She begins to place his hands on her shoulders, neck, and breasts.

If he is Straight, then chances are he will go for it. He may not if he truly believes in that Christian "I have to stay a virgin" crap

If he is Gay, chances are he won't go for it, unless he wants to keep his sexuality a secret, have sex with her, just to bragg about it later as cover

Originally posted by sithsaber408
I think we'd all be smart to guess that the answer is: yes.

There is a MAJOR MAJOR MAJOR difference between giving a successful and estimated guess on what will occur, and Truly knowing what decision he will make because you saw his future....

The two are not the same

Your analogy is horrible, and I can't beleive you don't see that. (well actually I can, you've said far wierder things before)

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
You just responded to an accusation of tautological rationalization with another tautological rationalization.

Which of course, is based on our limited understandings of the words tautology and rationalization.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Do you even know what it is that you are saying?

Yes I do, but again..like yourself, I can only understand what's being said, based on the limited information that's been presented. It's quite probable that an individual who possesses more knowledge of the terminology, could consider our definition(s) erroneous.

Still, neither of us can really ascertain what conclusion such a knowledgeable individual(sic) will come to, because we don't possess the necessary knowledge(like himself) to make such a determination.

Argument ended due to our limited knowledge of tautological rationalizations. 😆

Originally posted by Thundar
Which of course, is based on our limited understandings of the words tautology and rationalization.

Yes I do, but again..like yourself, I can only understand what's being said, based on the limited information that's been presented. It's quite probable that an individual who possesses more knowledge of the terminology, could consider our definition(s) erroneous.

Still, neither of us can really ascertain what conclusion such a knowledgeable individual(sic) will come to, because we don't possess the necessary knowledge(like himself) to make such a determination.

Argument ended due to our limited knowledge of tautological rationalizations. 😆

Speak for yourself.