African-American Slavery

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
I agree with this statement. However, your casual dismissal of the achievement of this country's founding fathers is laughable. In both it's stated purpose and lasting achievement, the Constitution is the greatest political document ever framed. Although it is easy for you to skoff at the 2/3 compromise clause, this decision was not reached without a considerable amount of moral and political debate. For the southern states, slavery was an integral part of the agrarian economy - a part that could only be thrown out at the expense of destroying a whole region's wealth and accustomed way of life. Even so, most of the slave-owners associated with the constitutional conventions deplored the practice and longed for the will to do away with the institution (Jefferson and Washington most notably). While this doesn't excuse the failure of the founding fathers to act on their better moral conscience, it does put the matter into context, as does the fact that, from the perspective of the Northern, non-slave holding states, refusal to compromise with the South on this issue would have most likely meant the failure of the states to form a united federal government.

Most Northerners did not seek an end to slavery because of moral issues. They were racist too. The threat of expanding slavery into the newly opened west threatened many Northerners that moved into that region trying to seek a profit. They could not compete with free labor that...that is slavery. To Yankees...it was simply an economic issue. Slavery vs emerging Industrialization.

Most Northerners could care less about the black man. Even President Lincoln believed that they were inferior and wanted them exported from the country.

In any event, slavery is wrong. However, slavery has existed since the dawn of civilization. With civilization, comes the stratification of society. Rich vs Poor....and in that mix...slavery arises. It's not morally right....but, that is the way human being are.

In regards to a comment earlier about the foul treatment of slaves in Islamic nations. It was not due to Muslims forcing their religion on slaves. In fact, Muslims never forced their religion on anyone...the way Europeans had done with Christianity.

Originally posted by charlemagne9746
In regards to a comment earlier about the foul treatment of slaves in Islamic nations. It was not due to Muslims forcing their religion on slaves. In fact, Muslims never forced their religion on anyone...the way Europeans had done with Christianity.

You've got to be kidding me. What was the first 150 years of Islam other than one continuous project of territorial conquest and forced conversion?

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
You've got to be kidding me. What was the first 150 years of Islam other than one continuous project of territorial conquest and forced conversion?

Why just the first 150 years? It's not like they have stopped spreading the word of Islam now...

The only difference is the huge amount of power Christians had compared to the relatively small amount of power Muslims have. Which is the reason why Christians were a bit more blatant about conversion and not giving people shit if they weren't Christians, something Muslim country's today just can't do because they need the western world in order to survive.

Originally posted by Fishy
Why just the first 150 years? It's not like they have stopped spreading the word of Islam now...

The only difference is the huge amount of power Christians had compared to the relatively small amount of power Muslims have. Which is the reason why Christians were a bit more blatant about conversion and not giving people shit if they weren't Christians, something Muslim country's today just can't do because they need the western world in order to survive.

I don't know if I follow your argument. In the Medieval period, the various Muslim states possessed superior military capability to their coutnerparts in the Christian West. Martel's stand at Tours in 732 was one of Europe's only successful attempts to halt Muslim military expansion during that time period.

As far as Christian forced conversions go, I'm sure to which events you're referring. Apart from the historically bad treatment of Jews throughout Europe by Christians, what specific conquest/conversions are you referring to? The Crusades? You do realize (despite their obvious strategic shortcomings and gradually diminishing moral justification) that the early Crusades were essentially a military/cultural counterstrike against centuries of Muslim agression in both the Near East and the Balkins? Agression, I might add, that originally wiped out and subjugated pre-existing Christian and Jewish communities in that region.

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
I don't know if I follow your argument. In the Medieval period, the various Muslim states possessed superior military capability to their coutnerparts in the Christian West. Martel's stand at Tours in 732 was one of Europe's only successful attempts to halt Muslim military expansion during that time period.

As far as Christian forced conversions go, I'm sure to which events you're referring. Apart from the historically bad treatment of Jews throughout Europe by Christians, what specific conquest/conversions are you referring to? The Crusades? You do realize (despite their obvious strategic shortcomings and gradually diminishing moral justification) that the early Crusades were essentially a military/cultural counterstrike against centuries of Muslim agression in both the Near East and the Balkins? Agression, I might add, that originally wiped out and subjugated pre-existing Christian and Jewish communities in that region.

Not talking about either of those time frames. I'm talking about the time when Christianity spread most. Colonization era. It was then that missionary's went everywhere to spread the word of Christ and it was during those times that Europe and thus the Christian world pretty much ruled the entire world. Meaning logically that we could spread Christianity far better then any Muslim country could spread Islam...

Originally posted by Fishy
Not talking about either of those time frames. I'm talking about the time when Christianity spread most. Colonization era. It was then that missionary's went everywhere to spread the word of Christ and it was during those times that Europe and thus the Christian world pretty much ruled the entire world. Meaning logically that we could spread Christianity far better then any Muslim country could spread Islam...

I think you're way off here. Identifying the primary impetus behind colonization as Christian evangelization has little historical basis. Although the colonization period sometimes trumpeted itself as an evangelical effort, "spreading the gospel" was usually a secondary, if not teritary concern. In fact, I would argue that that kind of rhetoric was usually after-the-fact window dressing for the real motivations, which were trade, exploration, wealth grabbing, and national prestige.

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
I think you're way off here. Identifying the primary impetus behind colonization as Christian evangelization has little historical basis. Although the colonization period sometimes trumpeted itself as an evangelical effort, "spreading the gospel" was usually a secondary, if not teritary concern. In fact, I would argue that that kind of rhetoric was usually after-the-fact window dressing for the real motivations, which were trade, exploration, wealth grabbing, and national prestige.

Oh no you misunderstand me, I did not say or at least not mean to say that religion was the reason for the colonization. I just said that it was a logical result of such and that it could spread faster then other religions because colonization. I never meant to imply that Christians colonized the world to spread Christianity.

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
How hypocritical is it that this country has and always been "the land of the free" where every human citizen born in this country had rights yet this atrocity happened.

"My God, Hamilton..We are going to pay for this one day."

- U.S. President Thomas Jefferson speaking with Hamilton at his plantation, on his second floor porch, overlooking a cotton-field full of his slaves.

The slaves and the work they did, did help boost the economy..so it wasnt all for nothing.

And you're out of your mind if you think slavery in America was worse then the genocide of almost all of the Native Americans.

Originally posted by Dr. Zaius
your casual dismissal of the achievement of this country's founding fathers is laughable. In both it's stated purpose and lasting achievement, the Constitution is the greatest political document ever framed. Although it is easy for you to skoff at the 2/3 compromise clause, this decision was not reached without a considerable amount of moral and political debate.

Laughable, you say..? The U.S. gov't imposed African American slavery machine with, White man at helm, went against everything the your Constitution stood and still stands for.

The U.S. Constitution is the most hypocritical political document ever made since man started writing. The founding fathers should be posthumously tried and convicted for felony crimes against humanity and for blatantly violating the constitution.

Originally posted by KidRock
The slaves and the work they did, did help boost the economy..so it wasnt all for nothing.

And you're out of your mind if you think slavery in America was worse then the genocide of almost all of the Native Americans.

Yeah, Black slaves help boost the economy for Whites. Remember, Black were denied from ever earning income at all. So it was all for noting.

Native American genocide was not worst than centuries of White oppression on Black slaves working for free and getting raped daily. That's why there's all the anger now against Whites. Cause of the advantage they stole and how they got their historical head start.

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
Yeah, Black slaves help boost the economy for Whites. Remember, Black were denied from ever earning income at all. So it was all for noting.

Native American genocide was not worst than centuries of White oppression on Black slaves working for free and getting raped daily. That's why there's all the anger now against Whites. Cause of the advantage they stole and how they got their historical head start.

If they hadn't then the niggers would still die of starvation in Africa...so...whatever.

Originally posted by Bardock42
If they hadn't then the niggers would still die of starvation in Africa...so...whatever.

Captured Africans men and boys (women and girls were raped down in the hull) died of starvation as slaves, on those ships your forefathers built, and in the U.S. more than they did in Africa, Bardok.k.k.

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
Captured Africans men and boys (women and girls were raped down in the hull) died of starvation as slaves, on those ships your forefathers built, and in the U.S. more than they did in Africa, Bardok.k.k.

And yet still most successful black people today are still the offspring of slaves. Meaning slavery was good for the black people of today.

Originally posted by Fishy
And yet still most successful black people today are still the offspring of slaves. Meaning slavery was good for the black people of today.

Ah, the bitter-sweet taste of sarcasm. .....You were joking......right?

Tyipical White rant. "Slavery was/is good for Blacks." Did daddy pass that down to you as grand-daddy passed it down to him as his daddy passed it down?

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
Ah, the bitter-sweet taste of sarcasm. .....You were joking......right?

Tyipical White rant. "Slavery was/is good for Blacks." Did daddy pass that down to you as grand-daddy passed it down to him as his daddy passed it down?

Granddaddy passed down slaves, daddy had to get rid of them when apartheid ended... Nasty deal, made my room nice and red though... Smells awful in the summertime, but that's why they have air fresheners so I manage.

Now seriously though learn to read, when did I ever say slavery was good for Blacks back then? It is good for those of today however. Or would you say you have it worse then the people left behind in Africa? Because if so by all means move there and have a better life, only problem is you won't and you can't. Like it or not, you should be happy slavery happened because otherwise you would be stuck in Africa still, and that for you is far worse then anything any white man could ever have done to your ancestors that you don't even know.

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
Captured Africans men and boys (women and girls were raped down in the hull) died of starvation as slaves, on those ships your forefathers built, and in the U.S. more than they did in Africa, Bardok.k.k.

Nah, not my forefathers. I am pretty sure. They probably did other shit though. And it's Bardock.k.k.

Either way. The blacks in the US today would a) not live if that hadn't happened and b) if they did they would lead soo much shittier lives. So, they should actually thank the slaveowners. Maybe pay them some gratitude money for bringing their ancestors over.

That's what I do, damn. I for one am GLAD that my ancestors were brought here, and I'm not living in the sh!thole that is Africa.

Originally posted by FistOfThe North
Ah, the bitter-sweet taste of sarcasm. .....You were joking......right?

Tyipical White rant. "Slavery was/is good for Blacks." Did daddy pass that down to you as grand-daddy passed it down to him as his daddy passed it down?

The blacks of 17th-18th, and a good part of 19th century Africa were for the most part better off than their enslaved relatives in the Caribbean and North America. Aside from white settlement driving them from their lands, forcing them to fight back, African blacks of the time were...well-off(?).

However, the blacks of the Western World of nowadays and pretty much all of the 20th century are much.....MUCH better off than the blacks of Africa. And yes, it's rather true that white interference in Africa has fecked the continent up (there were ups and downs to white settlement in the long run), but do you honestly believe those kids you see Alec Trebek and Kelsey Grammer sponsoring are better off than the VAST majority of American blacks now?

It was morally wrong (by current standards) to enslave the Africans in the first place, it was imperialistic and morally wrong (by current standards) to colonize Africa. The tables have ironically turned so that American blacks lead better lives that African blacks.

There have been numerous apologies for slavery, it was abolished a century and a half ago. All slaves, and their owners have decomposed into dust. And it's silly to think that what's right today is right for history. If that were the case, then we better start charging Crassus for crucifying Spartacus' men, Richard I for starting the Third Crusade, or Genghis Khan for overrunning Asia.

What more do you want FOTN?

He wants you and the people on this board who are white to make an actual thread apologizing for what happened a hundred years ago.

Originally posted by Fishy
Granddaddy passed down slaves, daddy had to get rid of them when apartheid ended... Nasty deal, made my room nice and red though... Smells awful in the summertime, but that's why they have air fresheners so I manage.

Now seriously though learn to read, when did I ever say slavery was good for Blacks back then? It is good for those of today however. Or would you say you have it worse then the people left behind in Africa? Because if so by all means move there and have a better life, only problem is you won't and you can't. Like it or not, you should be happy slavery happened because otherwise you would be stuck in Africa still, and that for you is far worse then anything any white man could ever have done to your ancestors that you don't even know.

It is highly likely that your grandaddy or (great) passed down slaves, it may be an actual fact.

Slavery is good for Blacks today? The typical White thought. Learn to not contradict yourself.

If I had a choice, if I were a slave back then, I would've stayed free in Africa under the worst conditions no matter how "good" conditions were under Whites as slaves.

Had they got me on that ship I would've waited till the waters were deep and shark infested, slit the throat of a couple of White guys and jumped overboard and most likely take a White guy with me.

A life without freedom is a life not worth living. I can relate to New Hampshire's state motto which says: Live free or die..