Anakin Skywalker vs Lord Sidious

In a lightsaber only match Anakin takes this, he defeated Dooku , who i think is a better swordsman then Sidious and Mace(call me fan boy), butt in all aut fight with force powers Sidious owns him.
Anakin is the best lightsaber dualist, because he has mastered the lightsaber and can channel his incredible connection to the force(he can sense danger and can predict lighsaber strikes and bloke them quicker then anyone else) in to the lighsaber, butt he hasn't mastered force powers and thus cant channel his connection to the force like with the lightsaber.

I hope this maked sense.

The text might do, but not the picture!

And you said "butt" again! 😛 😆

Nick Gillard puts Dooku as a level 8 while he puts Yoda/Mace/Sidious as level 9 (swordsmen). So actually Mace > Dooku in a swordfight, and so does Sidious. Still, if Anakin was in the state he's in when he beats Dooku I'm thinking he could likely take Sidious. But if he's in his mustafar state he loses for sure.

My whole thing is, we didn't get to see what Anakin could really do in the temple. We saw a 2 second clip rather than the whole fight, as we did with Sidious vs Mace's crew. I don't want to claim the whole proof of absence shit, but they showed Sidious kill those masters (who were not on Cin's level) yet we saw nothing from Anakin. And letting someone jump at you and pause then lunge forward to kill you, then to me, you're not a great master. Readiness is part of fighting, in which case here they even had their sabers out already. For instance, in the hallway of Palp's office when Anakin drew his saber on him, i think there would be little that could be done by Palps to prevent anakin from killing him.
Also, being a psychological monster has no bearing in a saber duel. If you have to think about fvcking with someone's mind, that means you're not giving full attention to your own blade work, or your opponents for that matter.
AS far as compassion, i don't think Anakin really had any for Sidious near the middle and end of the movie, it was more-so for Padme (as to why he didn't just kill Sidious). So i don't think that would be much of a factor in the fight. I'd say Anakin takes this with moderate difficulty just because of who Sidious is and how good he was. Unfortunately for him, its not good enough against Anakin. (in saber only mind you)

And why would he lose for sure on mustafar? He lost due to his mental state, not necessarily the geographical location. He made a dumb mistake trying to be a badass and, imo, show off for OB1 showing that he is/was worthy of that Master rank.

If Dooku is level 8 then which level is Obi Wan who isn't as good as Dooku, then where is Maul, Obi Wan is better then him, and where is Qui-Gon Jinn, who is even lesser lightsaber dualist then Maul. And which level are Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin in my opinion Maul can beat all of them one to one. What did Mace take with him level 4 jedi.
Nick Gillard isn't 100% cannon, wasn't this argued here before.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
If Dooku is level 8 then which level is Obi Wan who isn't as good as Dooku, then where is Maul, Obi Wan is better then him, and where is Qui-Gon Jinn, who is even lesser lightsaber dualist then Maul. And which level are Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin in my opinion Maul can beat all of them one to one. What did Mace take with him level 4 jedi.
Nick Gillard isn't 100% cannon, wasn't this argued here before.

Afterwards he engaged Count Dooku blade-to-blade. The two grand duelists fought briefly to no advantage until two IG-100 MagnaGuards interrupted and dragged Windu over a cliff into a large crater.

Eventually, Windu engaged General Grievous again during the Battle of Coruscant. In Star Wars: Labyrinth of Evil, Windu battled Grievous blade-to-blade on top of a train, a duel that ends in a stalemate.

His combat style makes him one of the deadliest warriors in the galaxy only behind Yoda and Dooku in combat.

During the time of the Confederacy Crisis, It was said that aside from Yoda, only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground.

Only the last is from Dooku Wookieepedia, the others are from Mace Windu wikipedia.

I don't see Grievous stalemating Dooku.
Its not that i don't like Mace, you could say i am his fan boy. He is my second best character, but i like Dooku even more.

In terms of pure skill with a blade, I would say Dooku has this over Mace. But the physical strength in Mace's form, its effect on darkside users and his shatterpoint ability will more than likely give him a slight advantage in a sword fght. However I think that Dooku has the better force mastery, therefore in and all out fight the two would stalemate.

What?! Dooku has more force mastery than Mace? How the hell do you figure? People seem to forget that his style relies heavily on the force. He created the deadliest form that takes the user to the brink of the darkside. Windu has to have exceptional lightside force power to resist the temptations of the darkside, some thing Count 'boy toy' Dooku, couldn't do. And don't give me that "Dooku uses lightning" crap, cause just because Mace doesn't use it, doesn't mean he cant. Yoda obviously knows how to do if he can block it with his hands (just an example that you don't have to utilize to understand) and if they are basically on par, I'm quite sure Mace can do the same. Mace was powerful enough in the force and overall to become the youngest Council Master in the history of the order. Thats pretty impressive. And Dooku wasn't that much older than him either. And i hate using A>B>C arguments, but if Mace beat Sidious, who is in fact marginally over Dooku, I don't see him losing everytime. I know Dooku beat him once when he was young, but i also believe that Mace returned the favor. Also, Dooku flees when he knows he cant win, hence having the two droids throw mace in a pit/crater. If there is an advantage either way, i doubt it's very much.

But what does this have to do with Anakin and Sidious? Anakin is a level 9, but lost to a level 8, so those numbers mean dick. And we all know that Anakin is a better sword fighter than OB1, even though their styles are extremely different.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
[B]What?! Dooku has more force mastery than Mace?

I beleive thats what I said. 🙄

How the hell do you figure? People seem to forget that his style relies heavily on the force. He created the deadliest form that takes the user to the brink of the darkside.

Oh, im sorry I wasnt aware that creating a form, albeit (arguably) the deadliest, made you an uber force master. It takes him to the brink of the dark side as you said. The brink. He does not emerge himself in the darkside and learn what it has to offer. He is only learning one half of the force so to speak - whereas Dooku is knowledgable in both ares.

Windu has to have exceptional lightside force power to resist the temptations of the darkside, some thing Count 'boy toy' Dooku, couldn't do.

You are heavily implying that Dooku couldnt resist the temptation to turn and to become a Dark Lord of the Sith. As far as I was aware it is not known when or why Dooku came under the tutelage of Sidious. There is every possibility that he openly wanted to learn the dark side of the force. In fact I think this is quite probable due to his pride and desire to become more powerful than everyone else.

't give me that "Dooku uses lightning" crap, cause just because Mace doesn't use it, doesn't mean he cant.

What sort of shit logic is that Subjekt. If he doesnt use it then I think it is safe to assume he doesnt know how. Where would he have learned it from? Who would have taught him to master it etc etc. While your point is correct in some cases I think you are clutching at straws here.

Yoda obviously knows how to do if he can block it with his hands (just an example that you don't have to utilize to understand) and if they are basically on par, I'm quite sure Mace can do the same.

Thats a pretty big assumption with next to no evidence to back it up. Yoda is better than Mace, is described as 'the greatest force user the dark side had ever encountered' (or something like that), is the Orders Grandmaster, and is 800+ years old. I think that it is reasonable to assume that Yoda knows alot of things Mace doesnt.

Mace was powerful enough in the force and overall to become the youngest Council Master in the history of the order.

Thats feat wars. I could say that Dooku was 'The Orders greatest student and greatest failure' as described by Yoda. It doesnt really hold much water in a duel (although still menas more than what you posted).

And Dooku wasn't that much older than him either.

What do yuo mean. Dooku is a good 30 - 40 years older than Mace.

I know Dooku beat him once when he was young, but i also believe that Mace returned the favor. Also, Dooku flees when he knows he cant win, hence having the two droids throw mace in a pit/crater. If there is an advantage either way, i doubt it's very much.

I havent read the EU that deals with battle. I was under the assumption that they were stalemating and that Dooku needed to leave because of Republic forces - hence he used the Magnaguards. Feel free to correct me though.

I would just like to say that I agree with Darth Subjekt.

As far as I was aware it is not known when or why Dooku came under the tutelage of Sidious.

Thats feat wars. I could say that Dooku was 'The Orders greatest student and greatest failure' as described by Yoda. It doesnt really hold much water in a duel (although still menas more than what you posted).

What do yuo mean. Dooku is a good 30 - 40 years older than Mace.

havent read the EU that deals with battle. I was under the assumption that they were stalemating and that Dooku needed to leave because of Republic forces - hence he used the Magnaguards. Feel free to correct me though.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
I beleive thats what I said. 🙄

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Oh, I'm sorry I wasnt aware that creating a form, albeit (arguably) the deadliest, made you an uber force master. It takes him to the brink of the dark side as you said. The brink. He does not emerge himself in the darkside and learn what it has to offer. He is only learning one half of the force so to speak - whereas Dooku is knowledgable in both ares.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
You are heavily implying that Dooku couldn't resist the temptation to turn and to become a Dark Lord of the Sith. As far as I was aware it is not known when or why Dooku came under the tutelage of Sidious. There is every possibility that he openly wanted to learn the dark side of the force. In fact I think this is quite probable due to his pride and desire to become more powerful than everyone else.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
What sort of shit logic is that Subjekt. If he doesn't use it then I think it is safe to assume he doesn't know how. Where would he have learned it from? Who would have taught him to master it etc etc. While your point is correct in some cases I think you are clutching at straws here.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Thats a pretty big assumption with next to no evidence to back it up. Yoda is better than Mace, is described as 'the greatest force user the dark side had ever encountered' (or something like that), is the Orders Grandmaster, and is 800+ years old. I think that it is reasonable to assume that Yoda knows alot of things Mace doesn't.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Thats feat wars. I could say that Dooku was 'The Orders greatest student and greatest failure' as described by Yoda. It doesn't really hold much water in a duel (although still menas more than what you posted).

Originally posted by Rampant ox
What do yuo mean. Dooku is a good 30 - 40 years older than Mace.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
I havent read the EU that deals with battle. I was under the assumption that they were stalemating and that Dooku needed to leave because of Republic forces - hence he used the Magnaguards. Feel free to correct me though.

I thought his goal was to destroy the Sith from the inside, but he failed when Sidious seduced him to the Dark Side.

In the databank it states...
It is yet unknown when exactly Dooku abandoned himself to the dark side of the Force, though he had apparently experimented with forbidden lore in the past. Rumors abound that Dooku was familiar with Sith teachings stored within a dark Holocron kept in the Jedi Archives
According to that nobody knows when he turned to the darkside. Also he was already familiar with a sith holocron, further strengthening my argument that he became a sith for power more than anything.

That could mean he was the greatest failure during the time that Yoda and Mace led the Jedi Order, and maybe he was a greater student that Mace was but later Mace got stronger?

It makes no difference. I was just saying it to show that feat wars mean little.

Doubtful, as in the frame before the duel Dooku seems very eager to enage the Jedi in a saber duel, yet quickly changes his mind after a fairly short duel with Windu. Why would he change his mind so quickly unless he was losing? I think it was probably similar to how he ran from Yoda in AOTC.

Like I said, I havent read about it. But im still not taking your word for it. 😛

Yoda simply outclassed Dooku. Mace cant do that. Besides, Tyranus wasnt planning to fight Yoda (or the duo for that matter) in the first place anyway.

Not taking his word for it? Why's that, Rampant? You don't want your point to take a nosedive?

Well, let me verify it: he's right. The last time I checked, Dooku says "leave the Jedi to me", and then engages Mace. And after a brief duel, he has his Magnaguards blindside Mace and do a kamikaze off of a cliff.

Dooku probably has Mace by a noteworthy amount in the Force (though it is far from outclassing him, if you've read Shatterpoint), but that's it.

Vaapad > Makashi. Period. Vaapad is "the deadliest", according to Yoda, and it turns the weapons of darkness into weapons of the light. Meaning it's gonna work really well against Dooku, which is likely why he kept their duel so brief.

Physical strength, and combat? Mace has Dooku - easily - by miles and miles. Mace > Anakin, actually, by a decent amount in physical prowess.

Swordsmanship? "Creating" your own form speaks of outrageously impressive skills as a swordsman and prodigy, and he was the youngest member of the Jedi High Council ever according to RotS. Dooku's pretty damn good, but I wouldn't say he's better.

In an all out fight? Mace would likely beat Dooku.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Let the games begin.

Excellent.

Exactly, it took him to the brink as to not plunge yourself into the dakside, having that much control over yourself and the force to not be seduced by its power and appeal.

True, but I am looking at it from a different point of view. Dooku may or may not have been seduced (it isnt specified). But either way, in turning to the dark side Dooku was given full access to sith abilities and was taught them by the greatest Sith ever to live. Mace on the other hand is limited to what he can learn due to his Jedi restrictions.

Last i recall I didn't say "uber" at all, I'm not going to sit here
and say he pulled 15 moons out of orbit or some shit, I'm saying he's extremely powerful, perhaps more-so than Dooku.

Haha fair enough. I just thought that I would add a little bit of hyperbole to suit my argument. 😛

It's perfectly good logic. I know how to cheat on my wife, but i don't do it. I know how to snap a neck, but i don't do it. I know how drive a car into a crowd of people i don't like, but guess what...i don't do it...see where I'm going? After 800 years, I'm sure Yoda knows all the darkside moves in order to know how to defend against it, and as a good leader, I'm sure he would teach his second in command these techniques in case he (Yoda) died, so mace could pass the training along if need be. If anyone has straws in their fingers, its you my friend.

Hmph. Yoda is the Grandmaster. It is made perfectly clear by Mr Lucas that he is the best Jedi ever to have lived up to that point. For that to be apparent, I find it very likely that he knows a huge variety of things that Mace doesnt. It doesnt matter if Mace is second in the Order or not. Yoda is older, wider and pretty much better than Mace in every aspect. My point is that because the Orders top dog Yoda knew hot to repel and probably conjure lightning it on no way means that Mace has the same ability.

Please don't turn this in to a Planet debate. 😛

*Shudders at the thought* 😛

It doesn't alter the fact that you can only learn so much. And learning more techniques, doesn't make you stronger in the techniques that you both know. If me and you both mastered a 3-point jump shot, and then i mastered hook shots, that doesn't mean that my jump shot is automatically better than yours. While Yoda knows more, i believe the degree to which they both have mastered the force is pretty close, with the advantage going to Yoda.

Yoda is a fair notch or two above both Mace and Dooku I feel. Also why does the advantage go to Yoda - you didnt specify. Could it be that Yoda knows more techniques? Or is it because Yoda is older ans wiser? Well news flash, Dooku has both these things on Mace anyway.

It's not a feat war at all. One is a fact, one is an opinion. The FACT that Mace was the youngest appointed Jedi master council member, speaks volumes for is abilities, and shows that he did something that Dooku couldn't do.

Perhaps. But because Dooku didnt make the Council Does not mean that Mace is better. It is heavily implied that Qui-Gon takes after the views of Dooku - and that the only reason he didnt make the Council was because of this. I think it is very probable that the same thing applies.

And the extensive force and saber prowess needed to be granted a master rank, and then a council member, has everything to do with a duel. What do Jedi fight with? The force and sabers.

No. Ki-Adi made the Council. Does that make him better than Dooku. Hell no. He made the Council because of his vast wisdom. In fact Dooku is wiser and more powerful than everyone on the Council bar Yoda, Anakin and in your opinion Mace. My point is that being on the Council doesnt give you the edge in the duel over someone that isnt.

OK, 30 years, not long in comparison to someone with 800 years of life. Dooku only mastered so much in that time.

With age comes experience. While this 30 years alone certainly isnt going to win Dooku the fight, its better to have it up your sleeve than not.

Well fleeing is fleeing. Its being scared and knowing you'll lose. Not something who is vastly superior to his opponent does.

Well again, its up to interpretation on wheteher he was fleeing and for what reasons. Yoda fleed his battle with Sidious. It didnt mean that Yoda was scared and it didnt mean he was going to lose.

EDIT: I know I missed out a paragraph. Ive got to go but ill get back to it later.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Excellent.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
True, but I am looking at it from a different point of view. Dooku may or may not have been seduced (it isnt specified). But either way, in turning to the dark side Dooku was given full access to sith abilities and was taught them by the greatest Sith ever to live. Mace on the other hand is limited to what he can learn due to his Jedi restrictions.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Haha fair enough. I just thought that I would add a little bit of hyperbole to suit my argument. 😛

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Hmph. Yoda is the Grandmaster. It is made perfectly clear by Mr Lucas that he is the best Jedi ever to have lived up to that point. For that to be apparent, I find it very likely that he knows a huge variety of things that Mace doesn't. It doesn't matter if Mace is second in the Order or not. Yoda is older, wider and pretty much better than Mace in every aspect. My point is that because the Orders top dog Yoda knew hot to repel and probably conjure lightning it on no way means that Mace has the Same ability.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
*Shudders at the thought* 😛

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Yoda is a fair notch or two above both Mace and Dooku I feel. Also why does the advantage go to Yoda - you didn't specify. Could it be that Yoda knows more techniques? Or is it because Yoda is older ans wiser? Well news flash, Dooku has both these things on Mace anyway.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Perhaps. But because Dooku didn't make the Council [b]Does not mean that Mace is better. It is heavily implied that Qui-Gon takes after the views of Dooku - and that the only reason he didn't make the Council was because of this. I think it is very probable that the Same thing applies.[/B]

Originally posted by Rampant ox
No. Ki-Adi made the Council. Does that make him better than Dooku. [b]Hell no. He made the Council because of his vast wisdom. In fact Dooku is wiser and more powerful than everyone on the Council bar Yoda, Anakin and in your opinion Mace. My point is that being on the Council doesn't give you the edge in the duel over someone that isnt.[/B]

Originally posted by Rampant ox
With age comes experience. While this 30 years alone certainly isnt going to win Dooku the fight, its better to have it up your sleeve than not.

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Well again, its up to interpretation on wheteher he was fleeing and for what reasons. Yoda fleed his battle with Sidious. It didn't mean that Yoda was scared and it didn't mean he was going to lose.

EDIT: I know I missed out a paragraph. Ive got to go but ill get back to it later.

just get to it when you can.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Boz_Pity

Here it says Dooku outmaneuvered Mace after a short duel, and left to save Grievous body, because Mace drooped a STAP on him.

I just wanna ask of comfirmation that Nick Gillard is even a source, cause from what I remember, he was just stating his opinion and has no canon influence on it...

I'm pretty sure it's just an opinion, but a pretty good one given his knowledge and experience with sword fighting.

Anakin destroys him in saber combat really. Sidious isn't fast or skilled enough to keep up with him.