Originally posted by Alfheim
No it is not. The religon itself encorages violence and intolerance, thats how Islam spread in most places by conquering the people......but some muslims are peaceful and focus on the positive aspects of the religon.
While I am no muslim, and am certainly not here to defend anyone's religion, I must say Alfheim, you are blissfully ignorant about Islam. First of all you have to understand the context of each religious texts before making claims about it being a violent religion.
.
If your claim about Islam a violent religion is true, then by that logic, Hinduism is the most racist and misogynist religion, Judiasm the most brutal and buddhism, it self can be consider some what violent when you look at events taking place in Sri Lanka.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
A few random fundamentalists ?Bro, these things run rampant in Islamic Nations. I wasn't even aware of how bad it was in some Islamic Nations, until I started reading News reports and refugee testiments (such as that of Ghazul Omid's) about how people are treated in these places, because of the culture and law this religion forces upon them.
Arabs, Persians, and Middle Eastern people are beautiful people, but thier religion is not.
The Quran makes no secret about the requirment of violence to serve Allah's purposes. Think about it:
-Execute Gays
-Beat Women as a form of Discipline and Control
-Cut off the hands of a person who steals
-Cut off the tongue of a person who slandersHell, even women who are RAPED are still victimized by Islamic Law.
Have you not heard the endless cases ????
Atleast in our Christian nations, if a woman is raped, she is not blamed for her own fkn rape.
[b]Recently, a woman in Saudi Arabia was given 90 lashes as punishment for being RAPED !!!!
http://timescolumns.typepad.com/gledhill/2007/03/saudi_woman_get.html
Can you fkn beleive that ? A WOMAN WAS PUNISHED FOR BEING RAPED...while the men who gang raped her were given a maximum of 3-5 years in prison, she was beaten nearly to death for her "role" in her own rape. 😬
Islam is corrupt. Always has been, probably always will be
😆 [/B]
Uri, I understand your concern's regarding human rights in the Middle East, but you must understand punishment for crimes such as stealing, seem harsh to us because we do not live in that enviornment. I am not saying cutting one's arm off for stealing isn't cruel, I am just saying that during the period such laws were passed, many of these violent acts were common throughout society, so the religion adapted to what the people were most used to by their laws. For example the Hadith, which are parts of the second most holiest texts in Islam claim that Adultry is punishable by death; however this is not a law that was created by Islamic rulings it had already existed in the Old Testaments, Islam had just adapted to it, because of the surrounding Jewish tribes; therefore some scholars argue that Adultry is not punishable by death because it is not in the primary text , The Quran. The Hadith is somewhat similar to the bible and most modern Muslims in the West have come to accept the fact that not every word of the hadith has to be taken literally.
My entire point is Religion can teach from the most beautiful to the most horrible things, but it is up the the rational man to decide how he interprets his faith.
while what happened to that woman was horrible, please stop misinterpreting the story.
She was sentenced for being alone with an man who is not her relative. Even to us that does not sound right, nor should it be punishable.
But look how a story can turn to a woman being punished for being raped by the courts.......... when it was something else she was being punished for.
LOL, I am as appauled by the story, BUT WOW, see how easy it is to change a story from one source to another.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
What ignorance do you speak of ?
0. I will "****ing" talk to you about your ignorance. Only the ignorant deny to entertain someone else’s criticism. You're already on your way to becoming JIA.
I'm not going to address all the cr@p you've posted in multiple forums over the past few days, but I will make a general address.
First, consider your sources. Writers with agendas do not make reliable sources. Many people who write anti-Islamic propaganda, even if they are ex-Muslims do so out of spite and aided by organizations that are hateful, xenophobic, or simply nationalist. Lil's "sources" often fall into these categories. Keep in mind WHAT you read and WHO wrote it. One source is not fact.
Mainly. Atrocities are committed in Islamic nations by Muslims, but keep the following in mind:
1. Individualism. An individual does not speak for a religion. Fatima and muslimscholar have NOTHING to answer to for. Just because one person does something doesn't mean it is representative of the religion or every adherent of this religion. You use this with all other religions, use it with Islam.
2. Judgement. Withhold your judgements on Islam. You find the same problems in Islam in other religions. EVERY religion is flawed, including Buddhism. Instead, focus your criticism on the application of religion, and not the religion itself.
3. Government. What is at issue here is not Islam, but the political uses of Islam in government is the issue. Are you telling me that if the US had theological law, homosexuals wouldn’t be executed? Please. This is not an Islamic issue, it’s a political issue. Religion should be separate from government. Period. You think there aren’t radical fraction elsewhere? That its only a Islamic problem? NO. The problem is that in some areas of the world, ideologues have political POWER. All you’ve done is focus on a cross section of Islamic examples and formed a hateful opinion based on that myopic analysis.
4. Political Power. Realize that even in “secular” governments like Pakistan, the government does not have control over every aspect of its territory. “Justice” carried out be an individual tribal leader is not necessarily condoned by the government. Often, rogue individuals can be ones promoting severe violence, especially when it comes to punishing women with rape and stoning. The government can’t control everything in its nation. When Matthew Shepard was killed, did you blame the federal government? Christianity? No. The primary fault falls with the individual.
5. Law. Just because something is written into law, does not mean it was enforced. Sweeden had eugenic sterilization laws in place for 30 years. That doesn’t mean that everyone the government saw unfit was sterilized. While there may be a legal basis. Basis does not mean practice.
6. Perspective. How do you expect people to act when many live in deplorable conditions, do not have access to basic services, government influence, and unbiased media? Religious law is the only LAW that some of these people have and know. Religious clergy may be the only strong figure some of these people know. So don’t go accusing Islam of making people ignorant when they haven’t have the opportunities you’ve had to learn what the f*ck diversity and morality are.
7. Disrespect. Islam is still a misunderstood minority. Americans don’t understand their own religion, let alone Islam. Xenophobia is RAMPANT in the world right now. Reactionary media is shoving sh*t down people’s throats and the public is gobbling it up like its hate candy. LOOK at what you’re saying. You’re attacking people with the same ignorance that people attack your sexuality.
8. Tolerance. Take a message from your friend Jesus Christ and TURN THE OTHER CHEEK. There are as many Muslims that hate homosexuals are there are other people. Now take a message from Buddhism and realize that what you express you will get back. Intolerance does nothing but create more intolerance. Be the bigger man that you should be given you perspective and BE RATIONAL. By all means, many of the issues you have raised are serious moral breaches and should be condemned and protested. I 100% agree that they are wrong. However, condemning Islam as the “problem” that is causing these is simply ignorant as I’ve only begun to explain above.
9. Reexamination. Realize that even in this “bastion” of tolerance, the US, you’ve only really been able to speak publically about your sexuality for the past decade or few. Realize that in the US you were a criminal because of your sexual conduct until 3 or 4 years ago. Realize that you’re your attacks are similar to those launched against homosexuals. Are all gays pedos because of one or even consitent examples that are blown out of representative proportion by the media and by those whishing to condemn homosexuality. As an oppressed minority, maybe you should have a greater understanding as you once did of how Islam is viewed instead of sucking up xenophobic cr@p and intolerance.
Come on, Urizen. You're better than this.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Isn't that interesting? Another long post about nothing.All your knowledge of the phrase was shown in your weak attempt at sarcasm.
My weak attempt at sarcasm had nothing to do with the phrase "The Third Invasion of Islam" - though generally I get dubious when authors use emotive things like that (eg those who use Crusade etc in titles of works to do with the war in Iraq) - no, my weak attempt at sarcasm was directed at your initial post on the subject that, as I have pointed out, made me think of other examples of people saying similar things about groups - be they racial or political or religious. In fact the only part of my response to your initial post that was intended to be weakly sarcastic was:
"I know it is true!!!! I found a Muslim hiding under my bed with a Red!!! Plotting to take my freedoms they were!"
And I couldn't resist putting that in as you made the point of telling us not to forget history. This was in no way linked to the phrase of the works of Israeli, this was directed squarely at your post. The rest of the post was in no way sarcastic, and if you read it as such then it merely confirms my suspicion that you see any disagreement with your views on this subject as either the works of the uneducated, acts of political correctness or just lacking any seriousness at all.
0. I will "****ing" talk to you about your ignorance. Only the ignorant deny to entertain someone else’s criticism. You're already on your way to becoming JIA.I'm not going to address all the cr@p you've posted in multiple forums over the past few days, but I will make a general address.
First, consider your sources. Writers with agendas do not make reliable sources. Many people who write anti-Islamic propaganda, even if they are ex-Muslims do so out of spite and aided by organizations that are hateful, xenophobic, or simply nationalist. Lil's "sources" often fall into these categories. Keep in mind WHAT you read and WHO wrote it. One source is not fact.
Mainly. Atrocities are committed in Islamic nations by Muslims, but keep the following in mind:
1. Individualism. An individual does not speak for a religion. Fatima and muslimscholar have NOTHING to answer to for. Just because one person does something doesn't mean it is representative of the religion or every adherent of this religion. You use this with all other religions, use it with Islam.
2. Judgement. Withhold your judgements on Islam. You find the same problems in Islam in other religions. EVERY religion is flawed, including Buddhism. Instead, focus your criticism on the application of religion, and not the religion itself.
3. Government. What is at issue here is not Islam, but the political uses of Islam in government is the issue. Are you telling me that if the US had theological law, homosexuals wouldn’t be executed? Please. This is not an Islamic issue, it’s a political issue. Religion should be separate from government. Period. You think there aren’t radical fraction elsewhere? That its only a Islamic problem? NO. The problem is that in some areas of the world, ideologues have political POWER. All you’ve done is focus on a cross section of Islamic examples and formed a hateful opinion based on that myopic analysis.
4. Political Power. Realize that even in “secular” governments like Pakistan, the government does not have control over every aspect of its territory. “Justice” carried out be an individual tribal leader is not necessarily condoned by the government. Often, rogue individuals can be ones promoting severe violence, especially when it comes to punishing women with rape and stoning. The government can’t control everything in its nation. When Matthew Shepard was killed, did you blame the federal government? Christianity? No. The primary fault falls with the individual.
5. Law. Just because something is written into law, does not mean it was enforced. Sweeden had eugenic sterilization laws in place for 30 years. That doesn’t mean that everyone the government saw unfit was sterilized. While there may be a legal basis. Basis does not mean practice.
6. Perspective. How do you expect people to act when many live in deplorable conditions, do not have access to basic services, government influence, and unbiased media? Religious law is the only LAW that some of these people have and know. Religious clergy may be the only strong figure some of these people know. So don’t go accusing Islam of making people ignorant when they haven’t have the opportunities you’ve had to learn what the f*ck diversity and morality are.
7. Disrespect. Islam is still a misunderstood minority. Americans don’t understand their own religion, let alone Islam. Xenophobia is RAMPANT in the world right now. Reactionary media is shoving sh*t down people’s throats and the public is gobbling it up like its hate candy. LOOK at what you’re saying. You’re attacking people with the same ignorance that people attack your sexuality.
8. Tolerance. Take a message from your friend Jesus Christ and TURN THE OTHER CHEEK. There are as many Muslims that hate homosexuals are there are other people. Now take a message from Buddhism and realize that what you express you will get back. Intolerance does nothing but create more intolerance. Be the bigger man that you should be given you perspective and BE RATIONAL. By all means, many of the issues you have raised are serious moral breaches and should be condemned and protested. I 100% agree that they are wrong. However, condemning Islam as the “problem” that is causing these is simply ignorant as I’ve only begun to explain above.
9. Reexamination. Realize that even in this “bastion” of tolerance, the US, you’ve only really been able to speak publically about your sexuality for the past decade or few. Realize that in the US you were a criminal because of your sexual conduct until 3 or 4 years ago. Realize that you’re your attacks are similar to those launched against homosexuals. Are all gays pedos because of one or even consitent examples that are blown out of representative proportion by the media and by those whishing to condemn homosexuality. As an oppressed minority, maybe you should have a greater understanding as you once did of how Islam is viewed instead of sucking up xenophobic cr@p and intolerance.
Come on, Urizen. You're better than this.
Well said.
Originally posted by Alliance
0. I will "****ing" talk to you about your ignorance. Only the ignorant deny to entertain someone else’s criticism. You're already on your way to becoming JIA.I'm not going to address all the cr@p you've posted in multiple forums over the past few days, but I will make a general address.
First, consider your sources. Writers with agendas do not make reliable sources. Many people who write anti-Islamic propaganda, even if they are ex-Muslims do so out of spite and aided by organizations that are hateful, xenophobic, or simply nationalist. Lil's "sources" often fall into these categories. Keep in mind WHAT you read and WHO wrote it. One source is not fact.
Mainly. Atrocities are committed in Islamic nations by Muslims, but keep the following in mind:
1. Individualism. An individual does not speak for a religion. Fatima and muslimscholar have NOTHING to answer to for. Just because one person does something doesn't mean it is representative of the religion or every adherent of this religion. You use this with all other religions, use it with Islam.
2. Judgement. Withhold your judgements on Islam. You find the same problems in Islam in other religions. EVERY religion is flawed, including Buddhism. Instead, focus your criticism on the application of religion, and not the religion itself.
3. Government. What is at issue here is not Islam, but the political uses of Islam in government is the issue. Are you telling me that if the US had theological law, homosexuals wouldn’t be executed? Please. This is not an Islamic issue, it’s a political issue. Religion should be separate from government. Period. You think there aren’t radical fraction elsewhere? That its only a Islamic problem? NO. The problem is that in some areas of the world, ideologues have political POWER. All you’ve done is focus on a cross section of Islamic examples and formed a hateful opinion based on that myopic analysis.
4. Political Power. Realize that even in “secular” governments like Pakistan, the government does not have control over every aspect of its territory. “Justice” carried out be an individual tribal leader is not necessarily condoned by the government. Often, rogue individuals can be ones promoting severe violence, especially when it comes to punishing women with rape and stoning. The government can’t control everything in its nation. When Matthew Shepard was killed, did you blame the federal government? Christianity? No. The primary fault falls with the individual.
5. Law. Just because something is written into law, does not mean it was enforced. Sweeden had eugenic sterilization laws in place for 30 years. That doesn’t mean that everyone the government saw unfit was sterilized. While there may be a legal basis. Basis does not mean practice.
6. Perspective. How do you expect people to act when many live in deplorable conditions, do not have access to basic services, government influence, and unbiased media? Religious law is the only LAW that some of these people have and know. Religious clergy may be the only strong figure some of these people know. So don’t go accusing Islam of making people ignorant when they haven’t have the opportunities you’ve had to learn what the f*ck diversity and morality are.
7. Disrespect. Islam is still a misunderstood minority. Americans don’t understand their own religion, let alone Islam. Xenophobia is RAMPANT in the world right now. Reactionary media is shoving sh*t down people’s throats and the public is gobbling it up like its hate candy. LOOK at what you’re saying. You’re attacking people with the same ignorance that people attack your sexuality.
8. Tolerance. Take a message from your friend Jesus Christ and TURN THE OTHER CHEEK. There are as many Muslims that hate homosexuals are there are other people. Now take a message from Buddhism and realize that what you express you will get back. Intolerance does nothing but create more intolerance. Be the bigger man that you should be given you perspective and BE RATIONAL. By all means, many of the issues you have raised are serious moral breaches and should be condemned and protested. I 100% agree that they are wrong. However, condemning Islam as the “problem” that is causing these is simply ignorant as I’ve only begun to explain above.
9. Reexamination. Realize that even in this “bastion” of tolerance, the US, you’ve only really been able to speak publically about your sexuality for the past decade or few. Realize that in the US you were a criminal because of your sexual conduct until 3 or 4 years ago. Realize that you’re your attacks are similar to those launched against homosexuals. Are all gays pedos because of one or even consitent examples that are blown out of representative proportion by the media and by those whishing to condemn homosexuality. As an oppressed minority, maybe you should have a greater understanding as you once did of how Islam is viewed instead of sucking up xenophobic cr@p and intolerance.
Come on, Urizen. You're better than this.
Very good post.
Originally posted by jasonk3
While I am no muslim, and am certainly not here to defend anyone's religion, I must say Alfheim, you are blissfully ignorant about Islam.
You do I know I was a muslim for six years I attended study circles and had a phone number of an Islamic scholar......I also had lots of Islamic books 🤨
Originally posted by jasonk3
First of all you have to understand the context of each religious texts before making claims about it being a violent religion.
...and you would know that because you have studied hadiths.
Originally posted by Alliance
0. I will "****ing" talk to you about your ignorance. Only the ignorant deny to entertain someone else’s criticism. You're already on your way to becoming JIA.I'm not going to address all the cr@p you've posted in multiple forums over the past few days, but I will make a general address.
First, consider your sources. Writers with agendas do not make reliable sources. Many people who write anti-Islamic propaganda, even if they are ex-Muslims do so out of spite and aided by organizations that are hateful, xenophobic, or simply nationalist. Lil's "sources" often fall into these categories. Keep in mind WHAT you read and WHO wrote it. One source is not fact.
Mainly. Atrocities are committed in Islamic nations by Muslims, but keep the following in mind:
1. Individualism. An individual does not speak for a religion. Fatima and muslimscholar have NOTHING to answer to for. Just because one person does something doesn't mean it is representative of the religion or every adherent of this religion. You use this with all other religions, use it with Islam.
2. Judgement. Withhold your judgements on Islam. You find the same problems in Islam in other religions. EVERY religion is flawed, including Buddhism. Instead, focus your criticism on the application of religion, and not the religion itself.
3. Government. What is at issue here is not Islam, but the political uses of Islam in government is the issue. Are you telling me that if the US had theological law, homosexuals wouldn’t be executed? Please. This is not an Islamic issue, it’s a political issue. Religion should be separate from government. Period. You think there aren’t radical fraction elsewhere? That its only a Islamic problem? NO. The problem is that in some areas of the world, ideologues have political POWER. All you’ve done is focus on a cross section of Islamic examples and formed a hateful opinion based on that myopic analysis.
4. Political Power. Realize that even in “secular†governments like Pakistan, the government does not have control over every aspect of its territory. “Justice†carried out be an individual tribal leader is not necessarily condoned by the government. Often, rogue individuals can be ones promoting severe violence, especially when it comes to punishing women with rape and stoning. The government can’t control everything in its nation. When Matthew Shepard was killed, did you blame the federal government? Christianity? No. The primary fault falls with the individual.
5. Law. Just because something is written into law, does not mean it was enforced. Sweeden had eugenic sterilization laws in place for 30 years. That doesn’t mean that everyone the government saw unfit was sterilized. While there may be a legal basis. Basis does not mean practice.
6. Perspective. How do you expect people to act when many live in deplorable conditions, do not have access to basic services, government influence, and unbiased media? Religious law is the only LAW that some of these people have and know. Religious clergy may be the only strong figure some of these people know. So don’t go accusing Islam of making people ignorant when they haven’t have the opportunities you’ve had to learn what the f*ck diversity and morality are.
7. Disrespect. Islam is still a misunderstood minority. Americans don’t understand their own religion, let alone Islam. Xenophobia is RAMPANT in the world right now. Reactionary media is shoving sh*t down people’s throats and the public is gobbling it up like its hate candy. LOOK at what you’re saying. You’re attacking people with the same ignorance that people attack your sexuality.
8. Tolerance. Take a message from your friend Jesus Christ and TURN THE OTHER CHEEK. There are as many Muslims that hate homosexuals are there are other people. Now take a message from Buddhism and realize that what you express you will get back. Intolerance does nothing but create more intolerance. Be the bigger man that you should be given you perspective and BE RATIONAL. By all means, many of the issues you have raised are serious moral breaches and should be condemned and protested. I 100% agree that they are wrong. However, condemning Islam as the “problem†that is causing these is simply ignorant as I’ve only begun to explain above.
9. Reexamination. Realize that even in this “bastion†of tolerance, the US, you’ve only really been able to speak publically about your sexuality for the past decade or few. Realize that in the US you were a criminal because of your sexual conduct until 3 or 4 years ago. Realize that you’re your attacks are similar to those launched against homosexuals. Are all gays pedos because of one or even consitent examples that are blown out of representative proportion by the media and by those whishing to condemn homosexuality. As an oppressed minority, maybe you should have a greater understanding as you once did of how Islam is viewed instead of sucking up xenophobic cr@p and intolerance.
Come on, Urizen. You're better than this.
How the hell do you know this stuff when you dont know **** all about the life of Mohammed, Islamic history and Islam in general.....why do you keep making statements about **** you know NOTHING about.
I actually agree with some of the things you are saying but it helps if you have studied it......also I got my information from Islamic scholars and books on Islam that were written by muslims and I can verify some of the stuff lil is saying is correct.
Originally posted by Alfheim
You do I know I was a muslim for six years I attended study circles and had a phone number of an Islamic scholar......I also had lots of Islamic books 🤨...and you would know that because you have studied hadiths.
How the hell do you know this stuff when you dont know **** all about the life of Mohammed, Islamic history and Islam in general.....why do you keep making statements about **** you know NOTHING about.
I actually agree with some of the things you are saying but it helps if you have studied it......also I got my information from Islamic scholars and books on Islam that were written by muslims and I can verify some of the stuff lil is saying is correct.
Your statements fall on deff ears unfortunately.
But remember - Islam will be dismantled by the pen of ex-Muslims.
Originally posted by TRH
Alliance-Americans don’t understand their own religion, let alone Islam.😂 so true
That maybe be true but it would help if Alliace would actually sepnd some years studying Islam before making assumptions about what he deosnt know **** all about.....sometimes its just pathetic.
He'll just come out with a statement like this....
3. Government. What is at issue here is not Islam, but the political uses of Islam in government is the issue. Are you telling me that if the US had theological law, homosexuals wouldn’t be executed? Please. This is not an Islamic issue, it’s a political issue. Religion should be separate from government. Period. You think there aren’t radical fraction elsewhere? That its only a Islamic problem? NO. The problem is that in some areas of the world, ideologues have political POWER. All you’ve done is focus on a cross section of Islamic examples and formed a hateful opinion based on that myopic analysis.
If he knew anything about Islam he would know that Islam does not actually seperate poolitics from religon.....thats why Mohammed started the first Islamic state and thats why his followers did the same....now I agree that some muslims are secular and seperate religon from Politics, but what pissed me off is he makes sweeping statements about what he knows nothing about.
Yes there are good muslims and bad muslims but the lack of tolerance and facism in the religon itself does not help.
Originally posted by Alfheim
How the hell do you know this stuff when you dont know **** all about the life of Mohammed, Islamic history and Islam in general.....why do you keep making statements about **** you know NOTHING about.
Piss off. I made no comments about Islamic Religious policy or mythology at all. You're like lil. You're argument is "you're retarded." Unfortunately, that doesn't fly with me. How do I know this stuff? You can approach problems from multiple angles. Islam is entwined with government in many nations. Why do I have to have a degree in Islamic studies to examine one political facet of Islam.
Originally posted by Alfheim
I actually agree with some of the things you are saying but it helps if you have studied it......
Then maybe you should withhold your judgement of how retarded I am. I've never written a specific paper on Islamo-political relations. What I get is from reading random articles now and again and indirectly through other projects. I HAVE read scholarly articles and pop accounts I also have some background in political theory. This is the approach that I took here. I made no comments on Islamic theological policy, which you wrongly claim that I have no grounds to make comments on.
However, I don't find its necessary to list every credential of mine. I dont' remeber the title and author of every article or book I've ever read. If you agree, and feel that your positions are justifiable, maybe you should take for granted that I don't "know NOTHING."
Originally posted by Alfheim
also I got my information from Islamic scholars and books on Islam that were written by muslims and I can verify some of the stuff lil is saying is correct.
While this may be tree, let me bring up two points. Just because one is a "scholar" does not make one credible. Lil posts "evidence" from "scholars" all the time that are reactionary xenophobes with their own motives. THAT is not scholarly research.
Secondly, just because someone is or was a Muslim does not make them an authority on Islam. Certainly they would have a great insight into their own perceptions and experiences, but we can never assume that that one person or their experiences are representative of Islam.
For example, if a child is raped by his priest, can we then assume from his ex-Christians testimony that all Christians are evil pedo rapists? I certainly think not.
Lastly, I've never said that lil has never said anything correct. I agree with her on a few tings. Even the most biased sources are allegedly based on some version of the truth, no matter how narrow of a view. That being said, I strongly disagree with her on the whole "Third invasion of Islam" overarching message.
Originally posted by lil bitchiness
But remember - Islam will be dismantled by the pen of ex-Muslims.
Perhaps more likely be moderates within Islamic nations?
Originally posted by Alliance
0. I will "****ing" talk to you about your ignorance. Only the ignorant deny to entertain someone else’s criticism. You're already on your way to becoming JIA.
JIA will ignore your posts if he cannot answer. I won't...
JIA will enforce his morality upon you, while ignoring every facet of logic and reason you can produce. I will not...
JIA will label you an Anti-Christ for disagreeing with him. I will not....
Originally posted by Alliance
I'm not going to address all the cr@p you've posted in multiple forums over the past few days, but I will make a general address.
Unlike you, I will take the time to address your individual points. Somehow, I feel you answer me indirectly out of fear that you cannot answer me directly.
Those are some pretty strong examples of Islamic atrocity I have brought up....which are direct causes of Islam, not indirect.
Originally posted by Alliance
First, consider your sources. Writers with agendas do not make reliable sources. Many people who write anti-Islamic propaganda, even if they are ex-Muslims do so out of spite and aided by organizations that are hateful, xenophobic, or simply nationalist. Lil's "sources" often fall into these categories. Keep in mind WHAT you read and WHO wrote it. One source is not fact.
1) Every writer has an agenda. Whether pro-Islam, or anti-Islam, there is always an agenda.
2) Ghazul Omid is certainly not hateful. She has suffered greatly because of Islamic culture, law, tradition, and government. I suggest you read her story for further insight.
3) Islam is not meant to be separated from Law or Government. In fact, Muhammed's intention was to make Islam the law.
Therefore, Islam, as long as it is the dominant religion of any nation, will be the LAW
Originally posted by Alliance
1. Individualism. An individual does not speak for a religion. Fatima and muslimscholar have NOTHING to answer to for. Just because one person does something doesn't mean it is representative of the religion or every adherent of this religion. You use this with all other religions, use it with Islam.
I was being sarcastic when I asked Fatima and Muslimscholar to answer for this. I asked them, because I want them to admit they have no answer....instead of bullshitting by calling Ghazul Omid a fake, or by downplaying her suffering like they have already done.
Originally posted by Alliance
2. Judgement. Withhold your judgements on Islam. You find the same problems in Islam in other religions. EVERY religion is flawed, including Buddhism. Instead, focus your criticism on the application of religion, and not the religion itself.
Buddhism gives no leeway for violence or torture. Islam DOES
When will you understand that ??? 😬
Islam gives reasons, excuses, and requirments for bloodshed.....sorry, but I WILL NEVER RESPECT A RELIGION/PHILOSOPHY/IDEALOGY that promotes violence, hate, or anything of the sort
Originally posted by Alliance
3. Government. What is at issue here is not Islam, but the political uses of Islam in government is the issue. Are you telling me that if the US had theological law, homosexuals wouldn’t be executed? Please. This is not an Islamic issue, it’s a political issue. Religion should be separate from government. Period. You think there aren’t radical fraction elsewhere? That its only a Islamic problem? NO. The problem is that in some areas of the world, ideologues have political POWER. All you’ve done is focus on a cross section of Islamic examples and formed a hateful opinion based on that myopic analysis.
ISLAM IS A RELGION WHICH IS MEANT TO BE LAW BY ITS FOUNDER MUHAMMED.....AN ISLAMIC NATION WILL NOT SEPARATE CHURCH AND STATE, BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE BLASPHEMY AND PUNISHABLE BY EXECUTION....
What part do you not get ?
Originally posted by Alliance
4. Political Power. Realize that even in “secular” governments like Pakistan, the government does not have control over every aspect of its territory. “Justice” carried out be an individual tribal leader is not necessarily condoned by the government. Often, rogue individuals can be ones promoting severe violence, especially when it comes to punishing women with rape and stoning. The government can’t control everything in its nation. When Matthew Shepard was killed, did you blame the federal government? Christianity? No. The primary fault falls with the individual.
Pakistan and Iran are two different stories....While Pakistan's law may not promote the punishment of women for these kind of situations, while thier customs do, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and other Islamic nations do find a way to punish a woman for her own rape by LAW....
You are evidently unaware of the details of these situations.
I suggest you do some reading up....Ghazul Omid and others like herself are far more reliable sources of the situations than yourself.
Originally posted by Alliance
5. Law. Just because something is written into law, does not mean it was enforced. Sweeden had eugenic sterilization laws in place for 30 years. That doesn’t mean that everyone the government saw unfit was sterilized. While there may be a legal basis. Basis does not mean practice.
It seems what you are trying to say is that Islam has the potential to be a better religion...
I am not disagreeing with you there....I am saying that Islam is a corrupt religion today....it clearly is.
Originally posted by Alliance
6. Perspective. How do you expect people to act when many live in deplorable conditions, do not have access to basic services, government influence, and unbiased media? Religious law is the only LAW that some of these people have and know. Religious clergy may be the only strong figure some of these people know. So don’t go accusing Islam of making people ignorant when they haven’t have the opportunities you’ve had to learn what the f*ck diversity and morality are.
You are basically proving my point for me 😬
Most Islamic nations are run by Ignorance, Isolation, and Fear.
You want me to feel bad for them ? I DO
I feel bad for Ghazul Omid, for women and men who have to endure this society of ignorance, and pretend they love thier nation, life, and religion, when in reality many of these ppl live in complete fear for thier lives, and have already given up personal dreams and what-not.
That's horrible.
But do not expect me to sugarcoat my opinions, and call Islam a "good religion" when it is no such thing .
Originally posted by Alliance
7. Disrespect. Islam is still a misunderstood minority. Americans don’t understand their own religion, let alone Islam. Xenophobia is RAMPANT in the world right now. Reactionary media is shoving sh*t down people’s throats and the public is gobbling it up like its hate candy. LOOK at what you’re saying. You’re attacking people with the same ignorance that people attack your sexuality.
Islam wants to claim it is a misunderstood minority, yet it punishes its own "misunderstood minorities".
Please don't feed me that bullshit, Alliance.
THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THAT ISLAMIC BASED NATIONS PUNISH PEOPLE THROUGH MEANS OF TORTURE, DISMEMBERMENT, AND DEATH
DON'T ****ING FEED ME ANY "IF'S, AND'S, OR BUT'S"
Like I already stated:
-women are beaten and burnt on a regular
-women are usually blamed for thier own rape-
-gay men and young boys are either hung or castrated for thier sexuality
-thieves have thier hands cut off
-liars or slanderers or blasphemers have thier tongues ripped out
DO NOT FOR A SECOND TELL ME THAT ANY OF THIS IS JUSTIFIABLE IN ANY WAY, SHAPE, OR FORM....
"THEY DON'T KNOW NE BETTER"- is basically the only point you have....and it's not good enough.
Originally posted by Alliance
8. Tolerance. Take a message from your friend Jesus Christ and TURN THE OTHER CHEEK. There are as many Muslims that hate homosexuals are there are other people. Now take a message from Buddhism and realize that what you express you will get back. Intolerance does nothing but create more intolerance. Be the bigger man that you should be given you perspective and BE RATIONAL. By all means, many of the issues you have raised are serious moral breaches and should be condemned and protested. I 100% agree that they are wrong. However, condemning Islam as the “problem” that is causing these is simply ignorant as I’ve only begun to explain above.
Please do not tell me to "turn the other cheek" because that metaphor has a different meaning for me droolio
And this is what you do not understand:
It is NOT the people i condemn. It is the religion itself I blame for these atrocities that occur.
Arabs, Persians, and Middle Easterners in general are beautiful people with an amazing history and incredible diverse talent, yet because of Islam they are forced to comprimise thier beings, actions, and ways of thinking.
Islam has kept them from growth...or has rather made thier social growth slow. Social Equality is a ****ing joke in any Muslim nation....
I would not kill a Muslim for being Muslim....yet a devout Muslim would want me dead for being Gay...or in the least, to burn in Hell....
Do not compare my biases with their own. My biases against the religion are based on the history, social conditions, and personal testimonies of the actuality of Islam.....
Thier biases are based completely on what thier Faith leads them to beleive.
Originally posted by Alliance
9. Reexamination. Realize that even in this “bastion” of tolerance, the US, you’ve only really been able to speak publically about your sexuality for the past decade or few. Realize that in the US you were a criminal because of your sexual conduct until 3 or 4 years ago. Realize that you’re your attacks are similar to those launched against homosexuals. Are all gays pedos because of one or even consitent examples that are blown out of representative proportion by the media and by those whishing to condemn homosexuality. As an oppressed minority, maybe you should have a greater understanding as you once did of how Islam is viewed instead of sucking up xenophobic cr@p and intolerance.
I do not get what your point here is...I know people like myself are hated by many, and have been hated for a long time...so what ????
Islam oppresses ITS OWN PEOPLE...do not talk to me about oppressed minorities.
I do NOT have issues with Muslims in the United States because they have no power here, and what they think, say, or do is simply thier opinion and in no way affects me or hurts anyone else (unless they enact more terrorist attacks 😬)
However, in ISLAMIC NATIONS where people are being OPPRESSED EVERY FKN DAY, WHERE WOMEN ARE BEING RAPED AND TOLD TO KEEP SHUT ABOUT IT, WHERE GAY MEN AND BOYS ARE EXECUTED OR FORCED TO HIDE IN SECRET, WHERE PEOPLE OF OTHER FAITHS MUST PRETEND THEY ARE MUSLIM JUST TO SURVIVE, WHERE THE HUNGRY HAVE THIER HANDS CUT OFF FOR STEALING BREAD, AND WHERE THOSE WHO SPEAK DIFFERENTLY GET THIER TONGUES CUT OFF....
Yes....With this, i have a MAJOR ISSUE
Originally posted by Alliance
Come on, Urizen. You're better than this.
I am not "too good" to be angry with numerous events which I feel are cruel and unjust.
what freedom has the west given to women apart from using them as porn stars and raping over 2000 women everyday the status islam gave to women no one can ever give look at the wifes of the prophets look at there staus in islam to the status of the wife of george bush. women couldent even vote until last centuary.
A right given to Muslim women by God 1400 years ago is the right to vote. On any public matter, a woman may voice her opinion and participate in politics. One example, narrated in the Qur'an (60:12), is that Muhammad (pbuh) is told that when the believing women come to him and swear their allegiance to Islam, he must accept their oath. This established the right of women to select their leader and publicly declare so. Finally, Islam does not forbid a woman from holding important positions in government. Abdur-Rahman Ibn Auf consulted many women before he recommended Uthman Ibn Affan to be the Caliph.
islam has given women rights before the west was was even formed when europe was in its dark ages
Originally posted by muslimscholar
what freedom has the west given to women apart from using them as porn stars and raping over 2000 women everyday the status islam gave to women no one can ever give look at the wifes of the prophets look at there staus in islam to the status of the wife of george bush. women couldent even vote until last centuary.
A right given to Muslim women by God 1400 years ago is the right to vote. On any public matter, a woman may voice her opinion and participate in politics. One example, narrated in the Qur'an (60:12), is that Muhammad (pbuh) is told that when the believing women come to him and swear their allegiance to Islam, he must accept their oath. This established the right of women to select their leader and publicly declare so. Finally, Islam does not forbid a woman from holding important positions in government. Abdur-Rahman Ibn Auf consulted many women before he recommended Uthman Ibn Affan to be the Caliph.
islam has given women rights before the west was was even formed when europe was in its dark ages
You don't know what you are talking about, and everyone can tell.
Originally posted by Alliance
Piss off. I made no comments about Islamic Religious policy or mythology at all.
You did and you do.
Originally posted by Alliance
This is not an Islamic issue, it’s a political issue.
What I dont understand is this...how the hell would you know that? Well ok you said that there are other radicals elsewhere and if Christian fundamentalists took over the govt they would execute homosexuals as well....yeah ok. Really that dont mean **** at all, all that mean is that Christians are just as bad...but the thread is called Islam Questions not Christian Questions. The existance of Christian Fundamentalists does not negate the existance of Islamic fundamentalists.
Furthermore the rules of the religon and the history of the religon is one of the reasons why there is so much intolerance in Islam.
Originally posted by Alliance
You're like lil. You're argument is "you're retarded."
No you're just pig headed and dont listen to anybody.
Originally posted by Alliance
Unfortunately, that doesn't fly with me. How do I know this stuff? You can approach problems from multiple angles. Islam is entwined with government in many nations. Why do I have to have a degree in Islamic studies to examine one political facet of Islam.
Er but in order to understand Islamic politics. You need to know about the history of Islamic politics and the rules....which you really dont know **** all about then you wanna turn around to other people and tell them they dont know what they're talking about 🤨
Originally posted by Alliance
Then maybe you should withhold your judgement of how retarded I am.
You're not retarded. I think your highly intelligent but your a pain the *** because you're pig headed.
Originally posted by Alliance
I've never written a specific paper on Islamo-political relations. What I get is from reading random articles now and again and indirectly through other projects. I HAVE read scholarly articles and pop accounts I also have some background in political theory. This is the approach that I took here.
Ok
Originally posted by Alliance
I made no comments on Islamic theological policy, which you wrongly claim that I have no grounds to make comments on.
Well you did say this.
Originally posted by Alliance
This is not an Islamic issue, it’s a political issue.
Well that statement is incorrect and whats annoying is that you say it with such certainity.
Originally posted by Alliance
However, I don't find its necessary to list every credential of mine. I dont' remeber the title and author of every article or book I've ever read. If you agree, and feel that your positions are justifiable, maybe you should take for granted that I don't "know NOTHING."Or maybe you should stop talking down to people.
[QUOTE=8603432]Originally posted by Alliance
[B]
While this may be tree, let me bring up two points. Just because one is a "scholar" does not make one credible.
Yeah but it helps! Hell do you even know what criteria make somebody a scholar under Islam?
Originally posted by Alliance
Lil posts "evidence" from "scholars" all the time that are reactionary xenophobes with their own motives. THAT is not scholarly research.
Well considering that some of what lil is saying can be backed up by muslims implies they are not xenophobic and reactionary as you think, you're just PC.
Originally posted by Alliance
Secondly, just because someone is or was a Muslim does not make them an authority on Islam. Certainly they would have a great insight into their own perceptions and experiences, but we can never assume that that one person or their experiences are representative of Islam.
Ok let me break it down for you. I wasnt just a muslim ive met and known scholar(S) personally. I have also know muslims who were not scholars but still knew alot about Islam. Ive been to LOADS of study circles.....now this is not the same as picking up an article. A study circle is about an hour spent going in-depth on a particular subject. Also ive studied alot of Islamic history and had lots of books.
Now this does not mean that im perfect but something tells me I know more than you, lil and your average muslim. The only difference is that I ahve to take alot of stuff from memory, if I was still a muslim I could just call somebody....and not only that I could discuss with him the reliability of his information, so when you get idiots on here telling me that im taking stuff out of context it gets me pissed off.
Originally posted by Alliance
For example, if a child is raped by his priest, can we then assume from his ex-Christians testimony that all Christians are evil pedo rapists? I certainly think not.
That example is too extreme, but if somebody has been a muslim has studied it in depth, met all sorts of muslims and this person tells you that there is a problem with fundamentalism with Islam...something tells me you had better listen.
Originally posted by Alliance
Lastly, I've never said that lil has never said anything correct. I agree with her on a few tings. Even the most biased sources are allegedly based on some version of the truth, no matter how narrow of a view. That being said, I strongly disagree with her on the whole "Third invasion of Islam" overarching message.Perhaps more likely be moderates within Islamic nations?
Well to tell you the truth I think both of you are too extreme. Lil on one hand almost cant see any positive aspects to Islam. You're so PC its almost like if anybody says anything bad about Islam you'll jump to its defence.
The fcat of the matter is this not all muslims are terrorists but there is a problem with intolerance within Islam and its due to the religon.
Originally posted by muslimscholarNot much freedom they can just do what they want whenever they want all the time,yes In the US women could not vote until 1920 but in Islamic nations women still cannot vote or do a lot of things,in Afghanistan women trying to vote was punishable by death by the heavily islamic government now in Afghanistan women can vote and show there faces ETC Iraq to,your story is relative bullshit
what freedom has the west given to women apart from using them as porn stars and raping over 2000 women everyday the status islam gave to women no one can ever give look at the wifes of the prophets look at there staus in islam to the status of the wife of george bush. women couldent even vote until last centuary.
A right given to Muslim women by God 1400 years ago is the right to vote. On any public matter, a woman may voice her opinion and participate in politics. One example, narrated in the Qur'an (60:12), is that Muhammad (pbuh) is told that when the believing women come to him and swear their allegiance to Islam, he must accept their oath. This established the right of women to select their leader and publicly declare so. Finally, Islam does not forbid a woman from holding important positions in government. Abdur-Rahman Ibn Auf consulted many women before he recommended Uthman Ibn Affan to be the Caliph.
islam has given women rights before the west was was even formed when europe was in its dark ages
Originally posted by TRH
Not much freedom they can just do what they want whenever they want all the time,yes In the US women could not vote until 1920 but in Islamic nations women still cannot vote or do a lot of things,in Afghanistan women trying to vote was punishable by death by the heavily islamic government now in Afghanistan women can vote and show there faces ETC Iraq to,your story is relative bullshit
I quite sure that actually In Islam women do have the vote, so Islamic countries that do not allow this are not following Islam, but at any rate there is so much other negative stuff that you could point out.
Originally posted by AlfheimAfganstan did not
I quite sure that actually In Islam women do have the vote, so Islamic countries that do not allow this are not following Islam, but at any rate there is so much other negative stuff that you could point out.