Originally posted by TRH
Afganstan did not
Iraq did not
Iran Does Not
Jordon Does Not
not sure bout the rest but i know there are more
No im talking about actual Islamic law ( taken from Quran and hadiths)not modern Islamic governments....but like I said there are so many other laws that you can take from Islam you can see where they got the inspiration not to give women the vote
Originally posted by Alfheimoh okay sorry nevermind
No im talking about actual Islamic law ( taken from Quran and hadiths)not modern Islamic governments....but like I said there are so many other laws that you can take from Islam you can see where they got the inspiration not to give women the vote
Originally posted by Alfheim
You do I know I was a muslim for six years I attended study circles and had a phone number of an Islamic scholar......I also had lots of Islamic books 🤨...and you would know that because you have studied hadiths.
How the hell do you know this stuff when you dont know **** all about the life of Mohammed, Islamic history and Islam in general.....why do you keep making statements about **** you know NOTHING about.
I actually agree with some of the things you are saying but it helps if you have studied it......also I got my information from Islamic scholars and books on Islam that were written by muslims and I can verify some of the stuff lil is saying is correct.
Alfheim...I hope you realize I have studied about Islam extensively, and gathered all my knowledge from scholars as well ( Shabir Ally Dr Bilal Philips), and yes i have also studied the life of Muhammed, just because you had been Muslim for 6 years does not make you an expert on the religion, I have seen people who have been Muslims all their lives, yet they do not understand their faith....Oh and having a phone number of a scholar makes you an expert as well, that one "scholar" himself may have not understood the faith correctly, I mean after all, their are many christians pastors who do not condemn the killing of innocent by western forces, does that mean we should not question their authority on chritianity?!?!...Offcourse not...These men ( Falwell, Robertsan) are phonies who try to push their own political agendas...and have nothing to do with the chrstian faith which like all religions promotes peace. You have a very limited knowledge of the faith if you want to learn more I suggest you contact muslims organizations such as CAIR or ISNA, that is what I did, when I misunderstood Islam being a religion that promotes hatred. To be fair to you...it is not your fault that you have biased opinion of it because the media that surrounds us paints this picture of Islam being a violent religion.
Originally posted by Alfheim
That maybe be true but it would help if Alliace would actually sepnd some years studying Islam before making assumptions about what he deosnt know **** all about.....sometimes its just pathetic.
The only thing pathetic here is your assumption that you know all and others. All you come up with is crap. Its "he doesn't know this" or "he doesn't know that." Thats not an argument. Thats you not having anyhting to state. I don't have to devote years of my life to studing something...and who says I made it up, maybe I read it as the scholarly opinon of someone else who has.
YOUR problem is you just assume I make all this crap up. Why? Because you don't like me.
Originally posted by Alfheim
If he knew anything about Islam he would know that Islam does not actually seperate poolitics from religon.....thats why Mohammed started the first Islamic state and thats why his followers did the same....now I agree that some muslims are secular and seperate religon from Politics, but what pissed me off is he makes sweeping statements about what he knows nothing about.
Any person with half a knowledge of politics and polticial institutions knows that every institution wants and has some degree of political power? Are you so ignorant you can't see this? Or are you so blinded by your absolute bigotry that you refuse to see that EVERY religion, corporation, municipality, and organization tries to have a stake in government.
The trick is, you can't LET them (any orgnaizaiton, including Islam). This is not an Islamic problem. This is a POLITICAL problem, something which you obviously know nothing about.
I can't think of a more eloquent way to say this at the moment:
You're punishing the gun for killing people, I'm attaking the person who fired it
Originally posted by AlfheimDo you even know what facism is, or are you just making shit up again?
Yes there are good muslims and bad muslims but the lack of tolerance and facism in the religon itself does not help.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
It is NOT the people i condemn. It is the religion itself I blame for these atrocities that occur.
Which is precisely your problem.
I’m tired of dealing with bigots in these threads.
Originally posted by Alfheim
You did and you do.
Really. Show me where. And stop makin shit up and ecpecting me to address it.
Originally posted by Alfheim
What I dont understand is this...how the hell would you know that? Well ok you said that there are other radicals elsewhere and if Christian fundamentalists took over the govt they would execute homosexuals as well....yeah ok. Really that dont mean **** at all, all that mean is that Christians are just as bad...but the thread is called Islam Questions not Christian Questions. The existance of Christian Fundamentalists does not negate the existance of Islamic fundamentalists..
All your arguments are "you don't know ****" and "you mean ****." If you are so blind as to ignore a larger context, maybe that explains your myopic stupidity regarding this issue. THE EXISTANCE OF FUNDAMENTALISTS ELSEWHERE SHOWS THAT IT IS NOT A UNIQUE ASPECT OF ISLAM THAT CREATES FUNDAMENTALISTS. YOU HAVE TO LOOK ELSEWHERE TO EXPLAIN IT. GET IT? NOTHING that has been discused here is simply an Islamic problem.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Furthermore the rules of the religon and the history of the religon is one of the reasons why there is so much intolerance in Islam.
Originally posted by Alfheim
No you're just pig headed and dont listen to anybody.
You're jsut "pig-headed" and don't actually argue against my argument, you argue against me. THATS BEING AN @sshole. Get it?
Originally posted by Alfheim
Er but in order to understand Islamic politics. You need to know about the history of Islamic politics and the rules....which you really dont know **** all about then you wanna turn around to other people and tell them they dont know what they're talking about 🤨.
Why can't government disregard religion as it does in other cases. You don't see these issues in Turkey do you? Are they not real Muslims because they don't have an Islamic government?
Originally posted by Alfheim
You're not retarded. I think your highly intelligent but your a pain the *** because you're pig headed..
We wouldn't be having this issue if you attacked my ARGUEMENT instead if my INTELLIGENCE.
I'll stop here before I just completely flip.
Originally posted by Nellinator
I found this funny and slightly ironic.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Please don't feed me that bullshit, Alliance.
I already said that you have a right to be angry. Repeatedly.
I said you do not have the right to bash Islam or attack Islam as the sole source of the problems.
I can name atrocities committed by practically any sect of society that held some degree of Power. I can name atrocities in the name of democracy, in the name of science, in the the name of empires and new world orders.
Is every system in the world simply innately corrupt because people misapply it or use it for evil ends. You sit and spin about violence, but dont address education. You complain about intolerance but neglect political will to enforce it.
They DO NOT believe they are doing wrong and you just sit there and hate them for it instead of properly challenging thier truth. You want to live in an enlighted society? Then stop hating and start addressing the problem instead of the symptoms.
You did not read my post and address my points. You said "I have a right to be angry" and "I hate Islam." Basically, you moved nowhere. You sat and spewed your original points.
Originally posted by Alliance
Which is precisely your problem.I’m tired of dealing with bigots in these threads.
Oh
my...
****ing....
God.......
Alliance...HOW BLIND ARE YOU ?
ISLAM CLEARLY AND FORWARDLY PROMOTES VIOLENCE AND BLOODSHED UPON "ENEMIES OF ALLAH" DIRECTLY FROM THE FKN QURAN.....
THOSE "ENEMIES" INCLUDE PROMISCIOUS WOMAN, GAY MEN, ATHEISTS, JEWS, AND ANYONE WHO DOES NOT WORSHIP ALLAH IN THE SAME WAY MUSLIMS DO.
WHY
THE
****
SHOULD
I
RESPECT
A
RELIGION
THAT
DIRECTLY
PROMOTES
VIOLENCE ?
Please answer that ONE tiny little question.....the one question I have been asking repeatedly .....
You should respect the religion because while it does promote violence, it is not the enabler of the violence. All hate and disrespect does is promote the very kind of ideology that pisses you off.
Why do we see this sort of violence in SOME majority Muslim nations and not others? Christianity can also be potentially violent and can be said to promote violence, why then don't we see similar acts today in the US and other majority Christian nations.
It seems obvious that its not a matter of what the relgions says, but what the hell people focus on. Think of the power one can create from the percieved presence of an external enemy. Think of the lack of education in areas where women are stoned. Think of the type of popularity that got Ahmadinejad elected...then think of the moderate uprising that is strangaling his government. Think about how governments or local politicians USE religion to jsutify thier claims (not the other way around). Think about how many other majority Islam nations don't have that kind of abuse. Try thinking. Try looking. Try comparing. Try reading those who support a moderate view of Islam, even critique it, without saying its the abomination of the Earth.
Also see my above post, as you may have missed my edit.
Originally posted by Alliance
You should respect the religion because while it does promote violence, it is not the enabler of the violence.
In your above post, there is not one valid reason to respect Islam. I do not respect it at all. To say I do, or to pretend I do, would be insincere.
You even admitted it promotes violence....Like I said before..I do not respect anything that promotes violence. Be it a religion, a law, a mindset, etc.
Originally posted by Alliance
All hate and disrespect does is promote the very kind of ideology that pisses you off.
I hate the religion....not the people.
I am not going to dislike you if you are Muslim. Your religion is your right, and your choice, and i am sure if you are Muslim you have your reaons. But just because a Muslim is my freind does not mean I will like the Quran any better.
The Quran is a piece of shit responsible for the dismemberment, torture, and deaths of countless innocent men, women, and children.
I'd ****ing wipe my ass with the pages from this book, and piss on it, before I'd ever give it my respect.
Originally posted by Alliance
Why do we see this sort of violence in SOME majority Muslim nations and not others? Christianity can also be potentially violent and can be said to promote violence, why then don't we see similar acts today in the US and other majority Christian nations.
Did I ever say Christianity was good ? Have I ever defended Christianity ? Come on Alliance, where the **** have you been ?
I've been making anti Christianity threads since the moment I arrived on KMC, way back since my ancient fights with Whob.....
Originally posted by Alliance
It seems obvious that its not a matter of what the relgions says, but what the hell people focus on. Think of the power one can create from the percieved presence of an external enemy. Think of the lack of education in areas where women are stoned. Think of the type of popularity that got Ahmadinejad elected...then think of the moderate uprising that is strangaling his government. Think about how governments or local politicians USE religion to jsutify thier claims (not the other way around). Think about how many other majority Islam nations don't have that kind of abuse. Try thinking. Try looking. Try comparing. Try reading those who support a moderate view of Islam, even critique it, without saying its the abomination of the Earth.
try looking ?
Try comparing ?
Try researching ?
Have you READ Ghazul Omid's book ?
Have you read reports and documentaries on the treatment of women and young effeminate boys because of Islam ? Have you seen Van Gogh's video about the treatment of Islamic women ?
It seems the only person who is truly ignorant here is yourself. Most women in Islamic countries do not complain about Islam and their culture due to FEAR OF TORTURE AND DEATH....due to fear of thier families murdering them
The Quran, according to Islam, is the direct and unchangable, uncompromisable word of Allah.....it is LAW, it is NOT to be questioned or examined....
Like I already stated:
Theives get thier hands cut off
Liars and Slanderers get thier tongues cut off
Women get stoned or whipped for "sexual misconduct"
Gay men and boys get hung or castrated
THE QURAN DIRECTLY DEMANDS THE ABOVE FIVE.....incase you didn't know the Quran is the BASIS of ISLAM
Bloodshed is a MAJOR and DEFINING aspect of Islam. There are no "if's, and's, or but's"
And you know what happens to Muslims who are lucky enough to get a proper education or be exposed to a taste of another's culture ? They usually become FORMER Muslims....like Ghazul Omid, and so many others who have DIRECT experience with Islam, unlike yourself...
So Alliance....I could care less about your prior respect for me, I could care less for your diplomacy, or desire for mutual understanding....
The BOTTOM LINE is that ISLAM PROMOTES VIOLENCE AND BLOODSHED...directly and TODAY.....until Islam cuts this shit out, it will NOT have my respect.....
Originally posted by Alliance
Also see my above post, as you may have missed my edit.
Your above post means nothing, I think you are severely missing my point..which I have repeated again and again....
No. All you have repeated is hate and ignorance about what the problem is. As i said earlier, you are attacking the gun, not the person who shot somebody with it.
By saying you hate islam, you hate everyone who practices it. Its like Christians who say they hate homosexuality but not homosexuals. Look what you're saying.
Again, all you have said is "I don't like things a few Muslims do." I find it funny that you claim to be a Buddhist, or even a decent person, and say that diplomacy or mutual understanding aren't important.
Do women not choose to wear a hijab because they choose too? Just because it is enforced in SOME countries, women elsewhere choose to wear it in their own free will. Is that magically oppression?
Some women do speak out. Others may ACTUALLY view themseles in a way different from what you might percieve. They may not THINK that they are being opporessed, its not necessarily paralysis by fear.
And please don't tell me that you think Islam can be summed up by Qu'ran sound bytes. Religion is complex. The qur'an, like most religious texts, is likely contradictory. We can sit there and throw sound bytes at eachother all day, or we can accept the simple and rational position that religion is what is practiced, not what is written. We can accept that many Muslims choose to IGNORE passages that you feel promote violence. Yet, you feel no qualms in your ant-Islam hate rant to disclude them.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
The BOTTOM LINE is that ISLAM PROMOTES VIOLENCE AND BLOODSHED...directly and TODAY.....until Islam cuts this shit out, it will NOT have my respect.....
To be honest I don't remember the last time some sort of anthropomorphic manifestation of Islam popped up to promote anything. I know that there are human beings who do while believing in that faith, and I know that there are human beings that don't while believing in that faith.
Simple example - Australian Muslims. There are some "nutjobs" here who have some rather archaic views. But the majority here who claim to be pious Muslims are in no way supporters of violence. And then that there are a sizable number who don't subscribe to the outdated notions from their religions past. In simple terms that is they don't subscribe to "VIOLENCE AND BLOODSHED", at the basic and beyond that might even be socially liberal.
Thus I am left with a conundrum - are they in fact not Muslims because their religious stance does not match the religious stance of Islamic extremists who claim their religious stance is the only true one and uses violence? I mean if Islam promotes violence and bloodshed then logically they can't be real Muslims unless they also promote violence and bloodshed. But strangely enough I do think they are Muslim, and I do think they are of Islamic faith despite not being bloody or violent.
But if I accept Muslims who don't hate gays or want violence or believe Jews should die are in fact still Muslims then it would seem I would have to accept that Islam is not in fact irredeemably oppressive or violent and that it is perfectly possible to have moderate and even liberal Islam. Which in turn would mean I would have to accept that it is the human factor that is primarily responsible for the promotion of violence and bloodshed. Which actually seems sensible because Islam itself only has power through its followers. I kind of think the people who use religion, any religion, to justify their hate or the view certain groups are evil are more of a problem then the religion itself, and as such it is they that need to be examined, educated and/or dealt with.
Originally posted by Alliance
No. All you have repeated is hate and ignorance about what the problem is. As i said earlier, you are attacking the gun, not the person who shot somebody with it.By saying you hate islam, you hate everyone who practices it. Its like Christians who say they hate homosexuality but not homosexuals. Look what you're saying.
Again, all you have said is "I don't like things a few Muslims do." I find it funny that you claim to be a Buddhist, or even a decent person, and say that diplomacy or mutual understanding aren't important.
Do women not choose to wear a hijab because they choose too? Just because it is enforced in SOME countries, women elsewhere choose to wear it in their own free will. Is that magically oppression?
Some women do speak out. Others may ACTUALLY view themseles in a way different from what you might percieve. They may not THINK that they are being opporessed, its not necessarily paralysis by fear.
And please don't tell me that you think Islam can be summed up by Qu'ran sound bytes. Religion is complex. The qur'an, like most religious texts, is likely contradictory. We can sit there and throw sound bytes at eachother all day, or we can accept the simple and rational position that religion is what is practiced, not what is written. We can accept that many Muslims choose to IGNORE passages that you feel promote violence. Yet, you feel no qualms in your ant-Islam hate rant to disclude them.
You severely misunderstand my position.
1) I do not have a problem with Muslims in the U.S.A....Why ? Because they have little to no power here. Their religion is kept among themselves, they do not enforce thier morals or ideals upon anyone else, and they have the absolute right to practice whatever they like on thier own time.
2) Stop putting words in my mouth...I never stated that I hate Islam. I disrespect it. I do not have to respect thier religion. I have 0% respect for the Quran and the religion that is spawned by it.
3) Stop trying to inspire sympathy by comparing my feelings against Islam as a religion to Homophobia. It's not the same thing. Homophobia is hatred against a Homosexual person for thier own sexual activity which in no way harms anybody. My disrespect for Islam has all to do with the violence and bloodshed the Quran promotes. It is a bias I have, there's no doubt about that, but my biases are not inspired by personal disgust or blind hatred...
I see and read exactly what is happening to innocent people in Islamic run nations.
That is just as stupid as arguing that I should sympathize for a child rapist because they suffer the same discrimination that I as a homosexual/bisexual do....that's bullshit, because it's not the same.
*and when I say child rapist, i do not mean your general peadophile...I mean an adult who actually FORCES young children to have unwanted sexual activity with them.
4) Your analogy that I am attacking the Gun instead of attacking the person who shoots it is a horrible and self-defeating one.
The Gun is a weapon, No?
Should I respect the weapon ? 😬
Should I sympathize for the weapon ? Should I admire the weapon ? The weapon which gives direct cause for death and suffering ?
I will choose to bash the religion itself rather than the people.
People matter more to me than a religion does. I could forgive the person for the wrong....I cannot forgive the religion which promotes the violence, however.
The Bottom Line is the VIOLENCE that the QURAN itself promotes....I do NOT TOLERATE ANY TEXT OR REALM OF GUIDANCE WHICH PROMOTES BLOODSHED, AGGRESSION, OR VIOLENCE...PERIOD....
Homosexuality does not promote violence.
Buddhism does not promote violence.
Atheism does not promote violence.
Stop trying to compare Islam to any of the above, because the Anger and Disrespect I have for the religion is NOT the same as the disgust and discrimination that bigots have against the above 3....
5) I also find it hypocritical that you attack Christianity, always back me up when I critisize Christianity without a problem, but when I attack Islam.....ZOMGZ.....don't you dare Urizen.... 🙄
Originally posted by Alfheim
Well there are some examples of atheist thought promoting violence in history....by the way I agree with almost everything else you said, so im not bashing you.Oh yeah Jainism doesnt promote violence either.
Thanks, but factually, Atheism does not promote violence.
Atheism promotes nothing. It is neutral, it is not positive or negative.
Atheism is simply a lack of Theism. Theism promotes things, Theism can be negative or positive, not Atheism.
Atheism lacks guidelines, lacks justification, lacks anything...because it is simply a negation of the concept of God.
Atheism cannot and does not give justification for any action, good or bad, because there is nothing to follow from Atheism.
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Thanks, but factually, Atheism does [b]not promote violence.Atheism promotes nothing. It is neutral, it is not positive or negative.
Atheism is simply a lack of Theism. Theism promotes things, Theism can be negative or positive, not Atheism.
Atheism lacks guidelines, lacks justification, lacks anything...because it is simply a negation of the concept of God.
Atheism cannot and does not give justification for any action, good or bad, because there is nothing to follow from Atheism. [/B]
Well Communism is a system taht doesnt belive in God, so that could be considered to be an atheistic system there were also a group of people in the French revolution that went around killing all religous people.
So ok sure you dont promote violence im just saying that it has done in the past and also some athiests today seem to be verging on becoming evangelical atheists and becoming a bit like fundamentalists Christains.
Originally posted by Alfheimyour statement about communism is not true there are quite a few religious communists.look at Cuba many high ranking party members are catholic
Well Communism is a system taht doesnt belive in God, so that could be considered to be an atheistic system there were also a group of people in the French revolution that went around killing all religous people.So ok sure you dont promote violence im just saying that it has done in the past and also some athiests today seem to be verging on becoming evangelical atheists and becoming a bit like fundamentalists Christains.