Originally posted by Alfheim
Well Communism is a system taht doesnt belive in God, so that could be considered to be an atheistic system there were also a group of people in the French revolution that went around killing all religous people.
Again, did atheism found communism, or did communism adopt atheism? Was the French Revolution an atheist revolution? I think not. I t was a political revolution and members of the clergy were likely considered to be bourgeois.
Originally posted by Alliance
Again, did atheism found communism, or did communism adopt atheism?
Communism started off as an atheistic system who adopted who is irrelevant.
Originally posted by Alliance
Was the French Revolution an atheist revolution? I think not. I t was a political revolution and members of the clergy were likely considered to be bourgeois.
I'll have to find the name of the group.
Originally posted by TRH
It started as that and in many ways still is but there are christian communists
Well that simply means its evolved, there are different types of Christians and there are different types of Communists. Communism could still be an atheistic belief system depending on what Communist you're talking to. eg you have Sunni muslims and Shia muslims.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Communism started off as an atheistic system who adopted who is irrelevant.
Isn't it funny how you so quickly exclude items as irrelevant? Perhaps you need to adopt a more Baconian philosophy and examine more evidence before you come to a conclusion.
THe order is exceedingly relevant. Communism is primarily communism because it is an aamalgamation of many philosophies. Athiesm may be a part, but its not the primary part and has a subordiante role. Besides, original Marxism is an economic theory, not a religious one.
THerefore, its stupid to say that communism represents athiesm, because communism only representes itself and the many more superior aspects of its philosophy. If atheism happens to tag along for parts of the ride, its certainly not the engine or the coal car.
Originally posted by Alliance
Isn't it funny how you so quickly exclude items as irrelevant? Perhaps you need to adopt a more Baconian philosophy and examine more evidence before you come to a conclusion.
You need to do the same with Islam.
Originally posted by AllianceTHe order is exceedingly relevant. Communism is primarily communism because it is an aamalgamation of many philosophies. Athiesm may be a part, but its not the primary part and has a subordiante role. Besides, original Marxism is an economic theory, not a religious one.
THerefore, its stupid to say that communism represents athiesm, because communism only representes itself and the many more superior aspects of its philosophy. If atheism happens to tag along for parts of the ride, its certainly not the engine or the coal car.
Well its like this as I said before im sure there are different types of Communists. IF some Communists belive that atheism is part of what it means to be a Communist then that could be considered to an atheistic system. Hell bahaism is supposed to be a sect of Islam because it gets some of its beliefs from Islam, just because it has other aspects to it doesnt stop it from being a sect of Islam.
I was under the impression that not believing in God to some Communists was part of being a Communist, well i'll have to look into this.
Originally posted by Alfheim
You need to do the same with Islam.
I'm not the one who continuously says political uses of Islam are not the issue, Islam is just evil.
I think that given global context, its evident that religious factors are not the primary ones corruptins Islam.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Well its like this as I said before im sure there are different types of Communists. IF some Communists belive that atheism is part of what it means to be a Communist then that could be considered to an atheistic system. Hell bahaism is supposed to be a sect of Islam because it gets some of its beliefs from Islam, just because it has other aspects to it doesnt stop it from being a sect of Islam.
Its given a different name because its different. Just because Bahais might claim to be an Islamic sect, that only describes what, 20% of their belifs (a poor estimate based on global representation). Where as there are many other Religions that are 10%. 15%, even 23%....Thats not a real good spread to justify its Islamicness.
Is government a proponent of military rule becuse it contians a military? I think not. Atheism is not sufficient to create communism. Communism is not dependant on atheism. There is no meaningful relationship, despite a correlation.
Originally posted by Alliance
I'm not the one who continuously says political uses of Islam are not the issue, Islam is just evil.I think that given global context, its evident that religious factors are not the primary ones corruptins Islam.
So the histroy of violence has nothing to do with it?
Originally posted by Alliance
Its given a different name because its different. Just because Bahais might claim to be an Islamic sect, that only describes what, 20% of their belifs (a poor estimate based on global representation).
Ok **** it, what about Sufism?
Originally posted by Alliance
Where as there are many other Religions that are 10%. 15%, even 23%....Thats not a real good spread to justify its Islamicness.
Er like which ones?
Well ok by that logic then theres no such thing as an English man because alot of English people have either Irish, Welsh, Scottish blood.
Originally posted by Alliance
Is government a proponent of military rule becuse it contians a military? I think not.
It depends on how much it relies on the military
Originally posted by Alliance
Atheism is not sufficient to create communism. Communism is not dependant on atheism. There is no meaningful relationship, despite a correlation.
Well i'll tell you what im going to look into it then, ok?
Originally posted by Alliance
Piss off. I made no comments about Islamic Religious policy or mythology at all. You're like lil. You're argument is "you're retarded." Unfortunately, that doesn't fly with me. How do I know this stuff? You can approach problems from multiple angles. Islam is entwined with government in many nations. Why do I have to have a degree in Islamic studies to examine one political facet of Islam.Then maybe you should withhold your judgement of how retarded I am. I've never written a specific paper on Islamo-political relations. What I get is from reading random articles now and again and indirectly through other projects. I HAVE read scholarly articles and pop accounts I also have some background in political theory. This is the approach that I took here. I made no comments on Islamic theological policy, which you wrongly claim that I have no grounds to make comments on.
However, I don't find its necessary to list every credential of mine. I dont' remeber the title and author of every article or book I've ever read. If you agree, and feel that your positions are justifiable, maybe you should take for granted that I don't "know NOTHING."
While this may be tree, let me bring up two points. Just because one is a "scholar" does not make one credible. Lil posts "evidence" from "scholars" all the time that are reactionary xenophobes with their own motives. THAT is not scholarly research.
Secondly, just because someone is or was a Muslim does not make them an authority on Islam. Certainly they would have a great insight into their own perceptions and experiences, but we can never assume that that one person or their experiences are representative of Islam.
For example, if a child is raped by his priest, can we then assume from his ex-Christians testimony that all Christians are evil pedo rapists? I certainly think not.
Lastly, I've never said that lil has never said anything correct. I agree with her on a few tings. Even the most biased sources are allegedly based on some version of the truth, no matter how narrow of a view. That being said, I strongly disagree with her on the whole "Third invasion of Islam" overarching message.
Perhaps more likely be moderates within Islamic nations?
No. My argument is not ''you're retarded'' its ''you're ignorant of Islam''
Which you are. Having read neither Qur'an or Hadiths or any literature around, so all your talk of Islam as religion comes out of your ass.
Originally posted by Alliance
Perhaps more likely be moderates within Islamic nations?
No. Why would a moderate Muslim be a factor in dismanteling Islam?
Dismanteling of Islam will not come from non-Muslims, or those who were never a muslim, but from ex-muslims proper.
Hence the biggest opponents of Islam are ex-Muslims.
Originally posted by jasonk3
Alfheim...I hope you realize I have studied about Islam extensively, and gathered all my knowledge from scholars as well ( Shabir Ally Dr Bilal Philips), and yes i have also studied the life of Muhammed,
Good for you.
Originally posted by jasonk3
just because you had been Muslim for 6 years does not make you an expert on the religion,
No it doesnt but it helps.
Originally posted by jasonk3
I have seen people who have been Muslims all their lives, yet they do not understand their faith..
Ok so what you're tellling me that you do?
Originally posted by jasonk3
..Oh and having a phone number of a scholar makes you an expert as well, that one "scholar" himself may have not understood the faith correctly,
No it doesnt but it helps...thats why I said I have known scholar(S) and I put a big S so you could see that its plural. Thats why I said I have know other muslims who knew alot as well....therefore indicating that I was not getting my information from one place.
Originally posted by jasonk3
I mean after all, their are many christians pastors who do not condemn the killing of innocent by western forces, does that mean we should not question their authority on chritianity?!?!...Offcourse not...These men ( Falwell, Robertsan) are phonies who try to push their own political agendas...and have nothing to do with the chrstian faith which like all religions promotes peace.
blah blah blah.
Originally posted by jasonk3
You have a very limited knowledge of the faith if you want to learn more I suggest you contact muslims organizations such as CAIR or ISNA, that is what I did, when I misunderstood Islam being a religion that promotes hatred. To be fair to you...it is not your fault that you have biased opinion of it because the media that surrounds us paints this picture of Islam being a violent religion.
Ok I tell you what, since you think I have evry limited understanding of the faith. I want YOU to prove it, im not:
a) Calling anybody
b) Going to any stupid website you dont think I havent seen a muslim website or spoken to muslim organizations.
Ive been a muslim for 6 years all of a sudden ive never been to an islamic website or spoken to organizations.
As I said before stop chatting **** and bring it.
For the record I dont think im an expert but I know more than the average muslim or person.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Well Communism is a system taht doesnt belive in God, so that could be considered to be an atheistic system there were also a group of people in the French revolution that went around killing all religous people.So ok sure you dont promote violence im just saying that it has done in the past and also some athiests today seem to be verging on becoming evangelical atheists and becoming a bit like fundamentalists Christains.
Communism is also a system which aims to eliminate poverty. And you know what ? Communism's poverty rate is 1-0%....
Does this mean that all systems that aim to eliminate poverty are evil ? Or that they promote violence or lack of freedom?
No....
You are trying to find a loophole to argue that Atheism promotes violence somehow, and you are wrong. Your attempt is unsuccessful, simply because:
A lack of beleif in God in no way, shape, or form gives justification for violence or oppression
Like I already stated, there are NO RULES, GUIDELINES, REFERENCES, ETC. that Atheism supplies for the sake of violence or oppression.
Absolutely NONE
Islam, however, gives definate justification and promotion for violence and oppression. The Quran directly illustrates and condones acts such as hanging, burning, dismembering, torturing, etc. as punishment for certain actions.
Atheism does NOT provide ANY SUCH THING.....
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
[b]Communism is also a system which aims to eliminate poverty. And you know what ? Communism's poverty rate is 1-0%....Does this mean that all systems that aim to eliminate poverty are evil ? Or that they promote violence or lack of freedom?
No....
You are trying to find a loophole to argue that Atheism promotes violence somehow, and you are wrong. Your attempt is unsuccessful, simply because:
A lack of beleif in God in no way, shape, or form gives justification for violence or oppression
Like I already stated, there are NO RULES, GUIDELINES, REFERENCES, ETC. that Atheism supplies for the sake of violence or oppression.
Absolutely NONE
Islam, however, gives definate justification and promotion for violence and oppression. The Quran directly illustrates and condones acts such as hanging, burning, dismembering, torturing, etc. as punishment for certain actions.
Atheism does NOT provide ANY SUCH THING..... [/B]
At any rate I will have to find out more about Communsim, just because you say atheism doesnt promote violence dont make it so, you're just makign statements, but I dont know much about Communism so i'll have to find out more.
Originally posted by Alfheim
At any rate I will have to find out more about Communsim, just because you say atheism doesnt promote violence dont make it so, you're just makign statements, but I dont know much about Communism so i'll have to find out more.
How....
Does.....
Atheism....
promote.....
Violence.....
?
Originally posted by Alfheimyou must know MUCH about communism to debate me in it
At any rate I will have to find out more about Communsim, just because you say atheism doesnt promote violence dont make it so, you're just makign statements, but I dont know much about Communism so i'll have to find out more.