Islam Questions

Started by CosmicSurfer61 pages
Originally posted by Imperial_Samura
[B]For over a thousand years they have been fighting the Jews? Certainly from the founding of Islam their has been contention between the two cultures - but let us not make out Islam was unique in this. Pretty much every major power in that part of the ancient world had its turn in having a go at the Jews.

Not as long as the Arabs have. They've been fighting the Jews ever since they took over Palestine. I'd say their very unique in their hatred of Jews. No ones ever done it this long. They even built a mosque over a spot where there used to be a temple.


They destroyed the Library of Alexandria? Any person reasonably knowledgeable about this would point out it is highly contentious and merely one of any number of theories about who/when might be responsible. The library is believed to have burned on a number of occasions. Some histories tentatively claim its final burning occurred during this period - but culprits, well, very shaky You can't claim it for fact. In fact there is another theory that Christians were responsible due to a law about destroying Pagan institutes. And their is no real proof that Islamic expansion was underpinned by an academic scorched earth policy. In fact the opposite, since caliphates such as the Abbasids operated from a strong foundation of existing knowledge drawn the east. But yes - they definitely destroyed things in war - which regrettably happens, and once again, in the interests of history lets not pretend this was unique to Islamic nations.

Muslim occupation was after 400 A.D. The exact date of the burning is 636 A.D.


Certainly. The Arabs in the past were one of many slave trading nations who drew upon Africa throughout history. And what of European slave traders - most historical sources seem to suggest they may have had something to do with slaves getting to the US.

And how did the european slave traders get the slaves to begin with? by trading with the Arabs and black slaveholders in Africa. Even to this day Arab Muslims are committing genocide among black christians in Africa and enslaving them.


Turkey is legally classified as a secular nation and its constitution assures freedom of religion. Does that translate into true tolerance? Not really. And I think I am starting to question you - you have a rather backwards and singular view of history of that period. But hey, if your happy, that is what matters.

HAHAHAHA. 😆

oh please 🙄

Not too long ago, two turkish men were slapped with criminal charges for, get this.............converting to christianity!!!! They were charged under the Turkish Speech Law for insulting Islam and insulting "Turkishness." They even have an article restricting freedom of speech. Some secular law. 🙄

Does the Islamic faith really allow muslims to be moderate? The Koran forbids it. The only way to be secular and moderate is to not to read the book. It even says to spread their faith in the name of Allah by the sword.

Dude, who are you kidding?!?!?!?

Sure, Turkey is secular compared to the Wahabi, Taliban ruling muslim countries that is everywhere else. But compared to non-muslim democratic nations, they're intolerable nonetheless. You call a nation that persecutes and demands prison time for Christians secular?

Look how the way they reacted when the Pope made a comment to their religion in Turkey, they demanded for his death. Yeah, some tolerance. That's what you call a religion of peace? They can't even take criticism all too well without getting overdramatic and psychotic.

And let's not talk about the Muhammed cartoon. 😆


They declared war on themselves 😱

And the Crusades was a series of different wars. But I can accept the Muslims started things like the Children's crusade. Or the one that led to the sacking of Christian Constantinople.... wait, what am I saying?

What? You're saying that the Europeans wanted Jerusalem all to themselves and kick the Jews out? Why those anti-semites.🙄 No, it's because Muslims were destroying and sacking the Holy city. Why else did they go to the middle east?

Originally posted by Nellinator
I'm not sure we have too many white supremists here... maybe they're in the closet still.

I hope your wish comes true 😄

And we also have defeatists and appeasers in this board too.

Originally posted by lil bitchiness
Christianity in the West is different, due to the librety practiced here. IE one can write a book about what one likes (well, within limits of reason) including something which compliely disards Christianity without being afraid for one life, or having death threats.
This is not the same with Islam, and the example we can use is Theo Van gogh, who was murdered for making a movie, in regards to Islam.

(called Submission, its on youtube for those who wanna see)

There are also few non-muslims talking about Islam, usually using stupid excuses such as 9/11 (like that has anything to do with anything) or Madrid bombings to claim all they needed to know about Islam was there.
Or that weird view that ''Middle Easteners who are savages!''
Right.
Others, who for example feel opposed to it for any number of reasons, cannot say so, because they will have a number of moral crusaiders calling them every name under the sun. Bigoted most likely, Islamophobic, etc.

Ex Muslims are Islam's biggest threat now. In the ''academic'' and ''public'' view and other.
Here are examples.

Ali Sina
Ibn Warraq
Taslima Nasrin
Parvin Darabi
Shaikh Anwar
Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Others
Salman Rushdie
Wafa Sultan
Walid Shoebat

Any contraversy brought on Islam was BY ex-Muslims. Not moderate Muslims, as they are too afraid to speak out. It was ex-muslims. Those who knew their life will be in danger, yet went on to say what they wanted too.

Islam cannot be reformed. It can't be molded. It is rigid but brittle. THAT is why Muslims do not tolerate criticism of it.

....

I also want to say. I am begining to see what I was just stubborn to see before. And on one hand I complitely understand it.

West today is so anti-Christian, that some would turn to any religion without the actual regard for what it really is. Thats not tolerance, or love, thats just downright laziness and stupidity.
People should look objectivelly at the Islam they way they do at any other religion.
Middle East does not equal Islam. And I know it will not equal so forever.
I was not a fan of Shah at all, BUT...times under Shah were not as hard as they are under Allatoyahs.

People who have not lived in Dar Al-Islam cannot and will not understand the level of indoctrination Muslims undergo for their entire lives.

On the other hand, anyone opposing the system of the Middle East is classed as evil pro-Jew with alternative political motives and Anti-Muslim tendencies, bent on destroying the Ummah.

nothing can break islam because its the religion of truth do what you can you wont succeed i can promise you

Originally posted by muslimscholar
nothing can break islam because its the religion of truth do what you can you wont succeed i can promise you

shut the **** up

you lost the debate 👇

I still love that no one addressed the facts that under Islamic Law:

1) Theives get thier hands chopped off
2) Liars or slanderers get thier tongues cut off
3) A woman who walks by herself gets beaten and punished
4) A person who draws a portrait of Allah will be executed
5) A gay person will be hung or castrated
6) An Atheist will be forced to become Muslim, otherwise be exiled or executed

And these 6 things are not just "cultural" law...all Five of these are supported by the QURAN

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
shut the **** up

you lost the debate 👇

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
shut the **** up

you lost the debate 👇

I still love you how can't address bigotry and your narrow view.

Originally posted by Alliance
I still love you how can't address bigotry and your narrow view.

1) Why did you quote me twice ?

2) I already answered your accusation a few pages ago....Islam has much to answer for....

You pathetically tried to compare my anti Islam sentiments to Homophobia, and I already explained how that analogy failed 👇

And quit with the fkn bigotry accusation..I am NOT anti-Muslim. I am specifically Anti-Quran and Anti-Islamic Law.

Let's get some things straight Alliance....

-Do I have anything against Middle Eastern people ? NO

-Do I hate Muslims ? - NO

-Do I think all Muslims are terrorists? - No

Facts:

I feel sorry for the millions of people oppressed under Islamic Law every fkn day....

I feel sorry for the men and women who get thier hands and tongues cut off...I feel sorry for the Gay men and boys who get hung or castrated because of thier sexuality..I feel horrible for the women who are blamed for thier own rape....the fear that so many people must endure.

HOW ARE YOU BLIND TO ALL OF THIS ???

HOW THE **** CAN YOU KNOW ALL OF THIS AND STILL EXCUSE THE RELIGION ? HOW CAN YOU STILL RESPECT THE QURAN WHEN YOU KNOW IT CAUSES ITS OWN PEOPLE SUFFERING ?!?!??????

If my FREIND WAS A MUSLIM I would NOT hate him or her, i would not convince him or her to change.....there is nothing wrong with being a Muslim

There IS something wrong with current Islam however.....when anything..any force....whether it be a religion, a lifesyle, whatever...is responsible for the deaths and torture of millions of people...guess what ?

I DO NOT APPROVE 👇

This is NOT about bigotry...there is no person or people under my judgement...IT IS STRICTLY THE QURAN AND THE RELIGION ITSELF I DO NOT ADMIRE...I DO NOT RESPECT....AND FOR THE REASONS I HAVE ADMITTED REPEATEDLY WHICH YOU BLATANTLY IGNORE

You did not even ADDRESS my six atrocity list...which are all backed up by the Quran and Islamic Law....

DO NOT...i REPEAT..DO NOT accuse me of being a bigot towards Muslims, without DIRECTLY ADDRESSING the multitude of arguments I HAVE MADE against your accusation.

Do it again, I will report you...you're accusation is ignorant and serious.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I still love that no one addressed the facts that under [b]Islamic Law:

1) Theives get thier hands chopped off
2) Liars or slanderers get thier tongues cut off
3) A woman who walks by herself gets beaten and punished
4) A person who draws a portrait of Allah will be executed
5) A gay person will be hung or castrated
6) An Atheist will be forced to become Muslim, otherwise be exiled or executed

And these 6 things are not just "cultural" law...all Five of these are supported by the QURAN [/B]

And i STILL LOVE how you cannot address any of these issues Alliance.... 😬

I've already expalined why the f*ck I don't need to.

Originally posted by Alliance
I've already expalined why the f*ck I don't need to.

And I already explained why you are wrong to call me a bigot against Muslims...can we call it two for two ? 🙄

No. Because I am correct in my assessment and you are not.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
I still love that no one addressed the facts that under [b]Islamic Law:

1) Theives get thier hands chopped off
2) Liars or slanderers get thier tongues cut off
3) A woman who walks by herself gets beaten and punished
4) A person who draws a portrait of Allah will be executed
5) A gay person will be hung or castrated
6) An Atheist will be forced to become Muslim, otherwise be exiled or executed

And these 6 things are not just "cultural" law...all Five of these are supported by the QURAN [/B]


That's six not five... just thought I'd point that out.

Originally posted by Alliance
No. Because I am correct in my assessment and you are not.

That's funnier than I'm sure you intended.

I'm really not concerned.

I don't give a f*ck what Islam says. You can be a good Muslim and disregard aspects of the Quran. Hundreds of millions of Muslims do. Its all about the application of religion. Any archaic system has parts you want to ignore. Hell, ther are philosophies form this past century that have parts that are so archaic they are ignored.

Originally posted by Alliance
No. Because I am correct in my assessment and you are not.

😆

Oh God..no we're back in square 1...you are beginning to sound like Feceman...

1) You're statement is a childish summation of what you beleive to be true.

2) You did not address any of my points like I asked you too...

3) You continue to claim to be right about all your accusations without countering my argument OR specifically arguing why you think what you do....

Thnk whatever the **** you want.....you mistaken severe Anger for bigotry....that is your problem, not my own. Things aren't that black or white Alliance, I thought you of all people would know that...

Fair Warning:

Continue to make accusations against me without backing up your argument and without directly countering my points, and I will IGNORE you....if you want me to RESPOND to you any further, than attack my points DIRECTLY and specifically....otherwise, do not address me.....

See my above post for starters.

I'm not the one who made the black and white statement (inessence) "Islam is evil" and "Muslims are evil." Hell you sound like GWB.

And really, if you put me on ignore I don't care. I've provided much more response to your posts (sometimes through responses to others) than my mental sanity has reccomended or that your responses have requsted. I'll still respond to you and its will further prove my point that you aren't interested in the facts or debate. I'm not here to post-serve you "directly and specifically" especially when you don't do the same.

Originally posted by Alliance
I'm not the one who made the black and white statement (inessence) "Islam is evil" and "Muslims are evil." Hell you sound like GWB.

Please quote me where I said Islam was evil..and that Muslims were evil....

Muslims suffer because of other Muslims...why would I condemn all Muslims ? 😬

Originally posted by Alliance
And really, if you put me on ignore I don't care. I've provided much more response to your posts (sometimes through responses to others) than my mental sanity has reccomended or that your responses have requsted. I'll still respond to you and its will further prove my point that you aren't interested in the facts or debate. I'm not here to post-serve you "directly and specifically."

I am not interested in Facts or Debate ? 🤨

I supplied you with more than enough reason, facts, and current events based on Islam today as to my stance...it is YOU who decides to pretend they are not written there.

That's a pathetic rebuttle, and I expected more from you. 👇

I provide you with numerous arguments backing up my stance, and you simply ignore them...that is not debating Alliance.

Originally posted by Alliance
I don't give a f*ck what Islam says.

But do you give a **** what it does ? 😬

Originally posted by Alliance
You can be a good Muslim and disregard aspects of the Quran. Hundreds of millions of Muslims do.

No one said you can't....

And yes, hundreds of Muslims do...here in the U.S.A., in Europe, and in more Liberal Middle Eastern nations....

NOT in Saudi Arabia, Iran, and the majority of Islamic run nations however....these are who I specifically address.

Unlike everyone else, they follow ISLAM BASED on the QURAN..not based on a disconnection from the Quran, like your "good" Muslims do....

The QURAN is what I have a problem with...not Muslim people...I have been fkn SAYING THIS FORVER.....

Originally posted by Alliance
Its all about the application of religion. Any archaic system has parts you want to ignore. Hell, ther are philosophies form this past century that have parts that are so archaic they are ignored.

Buddhism does not.....

Christianity has gotten better...does that make the Bible a better book ? No....

Islam still has a Lo0o00o0ong way to go...do not deny that.....even if Islam does become a religion with reduces its multitude of bloodshed, will that make the Quran a good book ?

No.....

Originally posted by CosmicSurfer
Not as long as the Arabs have. They've been fighting the Jews ever since they took over Palestine. I'd say their very unique in their hatred of Jews. No ones ever done it this long. They even built a mosque over a spot where there used to be a temple.

Collectively Jews were being persecuted long before Islam came along, after Islam came along and up to modern times by non-Islamic forces.

It is a terrible thing, and certainly should be faced, but it gives a historically inaccurate image when one makes out ancient Islam was somehow unique in its attitudes towards Jews.

And they even built a mosque over a spot where there used to be a temple? How terrible, that is certainly unique to Islam. Certainly following a rebellion by the Jews the Romans did very similar things, even banning Jews from Jerusalem for a long time. And following Christianities rise to prominence it certainly took away many a pagans sacred site.

Focus on the real issues - it is neither conducive to reform in Islam when people present ahistorical histories or inaccurate histories.

Muslim occupation was after 400 A.D. The exact date of the burning is 636 A.D.

Sorry the phrase "exact date" reveals a great deal of ignorance on your part of the debate that surrounds the exact circumstances of the libraries destruction. You are clinging to one theory that few historians proclaim as the exactly true version.

And how did the european slave traders get the slaves to begin with? by trading with the Arabs and black slaveholders in Africa. Even to this day Arab Muslims are committing genocide among black christians in Africa and enslaving them.

I believe you will find it you look into the matter that there were European slave traders present in Africa at the time as well. But oh yesss, you are certainly are right, The Europeans in your version are certainly less culpable then the "Arabs" - I mean the Europeans only bought them and then sailed them all over selling them again.

Technically Arab Muslims are Muslims native to Saudi Arabia. African Muslims are African Muslims. I am not sure what modern history book you are using, but Saudi Arabia has little to do with the wars in Africa - though African Muslims are often the perpetrators and the victims of the conflict, along with Africans of every other type.

I mean seriously - "Arab Muslims" - there are two common types of Islam - Shi'ite and Sunni. There is no "Arab Islam." I mean come on, you're like one of those strange Americans who got on TV in the 80's complaining about "A-Rabs" - not all Muslims are Arab.

HAHAHAHA. 😆

oh please 🙄

Not too long ago, two turkish men were slapped with criminal charges for, get this.............converting to christianity!!!! They were charged under the Turkish Speech Law for insulting Islam and insulting "Turkishness." They even have an article restricting freedom of speech. Some secular law. 🙄

Sorry, I can't help your stupidity.

Turkey is officially secular and has the constitutional assurance of freedom of religion. If you paid true attention to that case you would know the men were not charged with converting from Islam to Christianity. And secular has nothing to do with freedom of speech - secular refers to the relationship between the state and religion.

So the example you have just used is more to do with Turkeys stance on free speech as opposed to their stance on religion.

Does the Islamic faith really allow muslims to be moderate? The Koran forbids it. The only way to be secular and moderate is to not to read the book. It even says to spread their faith in the name of Allah by the sword.

Simple question - Are their moderate Muslims? In the west are their Muslims who are both liberal and moderate?

The answer is yes. The fact it is yes means that Islam can be a bloody oppressive thing. A violent thing. But it is also possible for it to have followers who are not mini-Bin Ladens.

Unless you want to go to the moderate Muslims in the west and elsewhere and tell them that because they aren't outdated, murderous racists they aren't true Muslims, in which case I will laugh at you even louder.

Dude, who are you kidding?!?!?!?

Sure, Turkey is secular compared to the Wahabi, Taliban ruling muslim countries that is everywhere else. But compared to non-muslim democratic nations, they're intolerable nonetheless. You call a nation that persecutes and demands prison time for Christians secular?

Once again - do you even know what secular means? And I am stating they are identified as secular. I am not just coming up with that myself - that is their global, political definition. They are classified as secular.

And yes, those men were probably picked on for being Christian, but they were not charged or sentenced for it. They were charged and sentenced for another crime which did not conflict with the consitutional right of religious freedom. That is more a sign of the failings of the Turkish legal system and of freedom of speech - you are free to be of any religion, just don't go shouting it out.

What? You're saying that the Europeans wanted Jerusalem all to themselves and kick the Jews out? Why those anti-semites.🙄 No, it's because Muslims were destroying and sacking the Holy city. Why else did they go to the middle east?

Well, if someone hasn't been schooled in the romanticised, Eurocentric version of the Crusades.

Those fine religious wars definitely had a religious component, but to claim it was all starry eyed idealism like "let us go have a picnic after we liberate the holy land from these terrible brutes " then you are seriously deluded. Do you have any idea what part the Byzantines played in the lead up and how they were used as a reason? The political, social and economic state of the west that made the idea so attractive?

I mean what - the Muslims had suddenly started sacking and destroying a city they controlled and had controlled for a long period and which housed religious structures of some significance to them? No, rather, the Turkish authority had become intolerant of Christian pilgrims - pilgrims into Muslims lands that had up till that time been tolerated. And they were exapnding into a weakening East Roman Empire.

And dare I ask if you know exactly what happened to many a Muslim, Jew and Orthodox Greek Christian when the first Crusade eventually took Jerusalem? Can you spell s-l-a-u-g-h-t-e-r? I think you can.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen

And quit with the fkn bigotry accusation..I am NOT anti-Muslim. I am specifically Anti-Quran and Anti-Islamic Law.

without quran and law there is no islam then is there? so you are Anti-muslim i see your racist

Originally posted by jasonk3
Wow...You have not responded to any of my claims, you are not any different than ignorant neo-cons who go on and on about other religions yet they have no basic understanding of what another religion is. I don't need to PROVE to you that your not going to any islamic website's or talking to any scholars... I'm telling you straight up that your arguments speak for themselves, PROVING you dont visit any islamic websites or talk to scholars. And believe me being a muslim for 6 years doesn't help if you are ignorant, like I said I've known many people who have been muslims all their life and do not know that giving Zakat (charity) is one of the five pillars of Islam. No offence Alf...but you need to go read a book or something because this is just sad.

What claims?

Originally posted by jasonk3
Alfheim...I hope you realize I have studied about Islam extensively, and gathered all my knowledge from scholars as well ( Shabir Ally Dr Bilal Philips), and yes i have also studied the life of Muhammed, just because you had been Muslim for 6 years does not make you an expert on the religion, I have seen people who have been Muslims all their lives, yet they do not understand their faith....Oh and having a phone number of a scholar makes you an expert as well, that one "scholar" himself may have not understood the faith correctly, I mean after all, their are many christians pastors who do not condemn the killing of innocent by western forces, does that mean we should not question their authority on chritianity?!?!...Offcourse not...These men ( Falwell, Robertsan) are phonies who try to push their own political agendas...and have nothing to do with the chrstian faith which like all religions promotes peace. You have a very limited knowledge of the faith if you want to learn more I suggest you contact muslims organizations such as CAIR or ISNA, that is what I did, when I misunderstood Islam being a religion that promotes hatred. To be fair to you...it is not your fault that you have biased opinion of it because the media that surrounds us paints this picture of Islam being a violent religion.

All you said was

a) You've studied Islam
b) I dont know anything
c) Not all muslims are bad
d)I need to contact some muslim organizations

You didnt make any important points eg you did not refer to Islamic history or any hadiths. All you are doing is making general statements, but in order to prove I dont know what im talking about we will need to go into Islamic history and hadiths you *****.

Originally posted by Imperial_Samura

And dare I ask if you know exactly what happened to many a Muslim, Jew and Orthodox Greek Christian when the first Crusade eventually took Jerusalem? Can you spell s-l-a-u-g-h-t-e-r? I think you can.

Yeah I know all that, is the thread called Christian questions or Islam questions? It doesnt change the fact that some of the violence we see in Islam is due to its laws and history. Talking about Christains doesnt negate anything from Islam.

Originally posted by muslimscholar
without quran and law there is no islam then is there? so you are Anti-muslim i see your racist

1) Thanks for proving my point....See Alliance ?...According to Islam, Islam MUST be the Law, otherwise Islam cannot exist. Our very own Muslim scholar just VERIFIED that there is NO separation between Church and State in Islam.

2) Shut the f*ck up 👇