What's So Bad About Hudlin? Really?

Started by tjcoady47 pages

Originally posted by BlueDMighty
Your another one who likes to miss the point on purpose.

I'll spell it out. In "America" (you know, land of the "free", land of the "brave".) people are innocent until "PROVEN" guilty? Right?

So, the fact that he was found INNOCENT of Murder by a jury of his peers in a court of "LAW", and has subsequently been "Punished" for being a "Black Guy" who got off.
it is slander to call him a murderer.

Two wrongs don't make a right? You mean like "Do as i say. Not what I do?"

Black people in this country have been told to "shut up" and "get over it" for years. (Like our past won't affect our future.)

Just as a point, that's doesn't actually constitute slander. don't use legal terms if you're going to use them incorrectly.

Originally posted by BlueDMighty
I'll spell it out. In "America" (you know, land of the "free", land of the "brave".) people are innocent until "PROVEN" guilty? Right?
In a manner of speaking, however we're treated as guilty until proven innocent. unless you pay to make bail you're locked up until declared "not guilty".

All the "innocent until proven guilty" means is that by default the prosecution has to prove their case.

At first, I didn't like Hudlin as the new writer of Black Panther, but
now I like it. I don't believe it to be fantastic or spectacular, but Reggie's writing of the current series is decent(and at times great as well).

So the Reggie's BP isn't all that bad.

Originally posted by Frostbite883
At first, I didn't like Hudlin as the new writer of Black Panther, but
now I like it. I don't believe it to be fantastic or spectacular, but Reggie's writing of the current series is decent(and at times great as well).

So the Reggie's BP isn't all that bad.

I don't think he's a bad writer so much as he's just a bad person.

I actually enjoyed the last few issues of BP.

Originally posted by Disappear
you're psychic? congratulations.

here's why the things you're saying are ignorant, unrealistic and just generally racist in their own right:

1. bishop isn't black because he's part aboriginal? he was "black enough" to be considered a black mutant prior to x-treme x-men, but because gateway [an aboriginal whose people experienced the same racism as africans brought to america during the time of slavery] is his ancestor, he's not black anymore? from at least his grandmother's generation, the bishops have lived in america and faced not only the racial profiling of being black, but also of having mutants in the family. he's been through MORE oppression and racial intolerance than any actual black person in this day and age, due not only to his mutant heritage but to the color of his skin. but he's not black enough because claremont thought it would be neat for gateway to be his relative? do some research.

2. the "white man" gave storm straight hair and blue eyes to make her "less threatening" as a black character? give me a ****ing break. D, you seem to be a storm fan of a relatively high order. surely you must know that storm came from an amalgamation of two characters rejected by DC; a cat woman and some bird woman. the cat woman became the main template, but to rationalize the wind/weather powers of the bird woman, they changed her appearance and grafted her into her own mythology. she's from a line of african women who possess those traits as a symbol of the "goddessness" in their "bright lady" religion. clearly that wasn't an effort to make the character more ****ing interesting, a plot line which has lasted until this very day, but just some scheme to trick us white people into accepting a black character. do some research.

3. everett ross was put in place to make people less threatened by t'challa's dominance as a black man? are you ****ing kidding me? it's like you have a compulsion to twist things so they make white people look inherently racist. i've read years of black panther stories, i'm entirely white [irish, mostly] and haven't once given two shits about this "threatening dominance" you claim exists. it was a new, unexplored framework for telling the stories, and it worked well. t'challa wasn't any less the focal point of the series because of it. it's not like us white readers were confused or set at ease by ross referring to t'challa as "my client." i didn't sit at home thinking, "well, i don't know who this client is, but i'm relatively certain he's NOT black. phew." cooking up stories about how you think white people act doesn't make you a victim of racism. it makes you a racist.

4. storm kissing everybody? really, who "everybody" was she kissing "back then"? because, as i see it, "back then" refers to a time a while ago which isn't within the last few years of common knowledge. because, as i remember my x-men history, storm was in an intimate, long-standing relationship with forge for a good time of her tenure as an x-man. forge, a cheyenne indian whose people not only were abused, attacked and cheated by the european settlers in america, but whose people also faced discrimination from other indian tribes prior to, during, and after those times. oh shit, i mean, she was just dating some white guy. then she had a flirtation with cable; a kindred spirit who'd fought his entire life for equality among the races in his time and who saw the same passion and fire in storm. **** me, i MEANT, just some other white guy. then, what, she got kidnapped by shaitan and that nonsense. big whoop, it was an alien story. then, in uncanny, she kisses wolverine [a lost soul who is not only one of her closest friends, but also another "kindred spirit" as a freedom fighter and mutant] and nightcrawler [again, one of her closest friends, who is UNIVERSALLY discriminated against based on his appearance.] GOD DAMNIT! i mean, just some white guys. and no, some of it didn't make any sense, but that's what happens when different creative teams have different ideas. shit happens. thank GOD hudlin had the brilliant idea to ignore the entirety of storm's romantic past and slapped her and t'challa together after a short reunion of a relationship. but hey, at least they're the same color. finally some justice in comics.

5. the new mutants/new x-men writers decided to add in minority characters, somehow ONLY to attract a fanbase with minority readers, then depowered/killed their characters off because somehow they were unable to handle writing stories with colored character in them? bull****ingshit. first, a DIFFERENT creative team was responsible for depowering/killing the characters than the original creators, so that automatically throws that idea out the window already. then there's the fact that they HAD TO depower a portion of their cast to fit with the House of M fallout, and their decidedly violent storylines called for multiple student deaths. david got depowered [boo ****ing hoo] but he's not dead. tag got killed, and suddenly it's a racial thing? he was killed for the same reason cypher [a WHITE character] was killed; he'd used up is usefulness. how many stories could they really write where people needed to be mind-controlled into being chased off? he got his moment in the sun in the hellions mini-series, but that's really all they could do with a power as limited and useless as that. so he was one of, what, two dozen students to die? what about quill, or icarus, or the myriad other students who died? because they killed a student who wasn't white, it's some racially-motivated plot? quit patting yourselves on the back, you didn't figure shit out. you made up some dumbass story to validate your opinion, and insulted a number of hard-working people in the industry to do so. way to go.

6. apocalypse is of african descent, so if you want to rope him into your black comic character grouping, go for it. just ignore the fact that he's decidedly non-racial [blue on grey] BECAUSE of his views on mutant supremacy. he sees things as "human" and "mutant," not as "white," "black," "hispanic," "asian" or otherwise. but congratulations for getting pissed that the biggest mutant megalomaniac in x-men history isn't waving his black card around. way to completely miss the point.

7. you completely ignore the racial storylines that are actually progressive or thought-provoking. how about in peter milligan's [a white man's] x-statix, where the issue of being black was not only tied into celebrity and mutant status, but the bigotry that exists between blacks was brought up? the spike's issues with the anarchist for not letting him on the team, because the spike was "younger, badder and blacker" than him? that type of shit gets overlooked, because white people only care about downplaying the black man to subservient roles. clearly. what about in j. michael straczynski's supreme power, where the same intra-racial conflict was brought up again between the blur and nighthawk? "house negro" v. "field negro," as if one group of black people have a right to claim worse oppression and bigotry because of their immediate surroundings. as if feeling the pain of their ancestors, and the intolerance of racism, is only something the less-well-off [funny, considering how much richer than stanley nighthawk was] can do. that storyline must not have existed.

i'm sure there were times in the comic industry, even times in the present day, when race has played a factor in decisions being made. making a character white or black or asian or mexican or whatever. promoting certain characters over others. i'm not alleging that things like that don't exist. but this thread's turned into some pity party where you've gathered up and said "look what they did to us," "look what they did to our black characters, JUST FOR BEING BLACK," when you have no idea whether that's the case. no references to other minorities being discriminated against in terms of characters or character-usage. what about, as SC said, the fact that hudlin's "plight of the minority" campaign only applies to black characters? what about the utter lack of jewish characters [they have, what, kitty? magneto? the thing? a couple d-list israeli characters?] what about hispanic, or asian? where're the big plots promoting their diversity and heritage?

if you've got a problem with how things are going down in the comic industry, get off your ass and do something. write to hudlin, write to mcduffie. write to joe quesada or stan lee or anyone. tell them how you feel, why you feel that way, and what you think should change. or work your ass off, get a position where you can MAKE change yourself, and do something about it. quit bitching on some internet forum like a bunch of girls with no prom dates. and do your ****ing research before you start accusing shit of being a white man's conspiracy.

Expects "I believe what I want to believe. You're a fascist. Boo hoo. Time for Zoloft." reply.

I just went back and read Hudlin's work on the "Other" storyline for Spider-Man

Here's a couple of things that bothered me..

-Black Panther claims that Wakanda "50 years before Western scientists", yet another example of Hudlin making Wakandans "supercool"

-T'Challa has peter consume a heart shaped herb, which makes no sense as only those of the ROYAL bloodline are able to consume them and gain the abilities from it without dieing. So basically, Hudlin doesn't even know how his favorite character got his powers

And that was only in Freindly Neighborhood #2!

In the next issue Hudlin writes Latverians as living in fear of Doom despite of him being dead. Makes sense right? Well it would if thats how Latverians actually acted.

Hudlin apparently never read the FF arc, Authoritative Action, which has the FF running Latveria after Doom's death. In it, the Latverians are shown to be establishing a new form of government, and acknowledging that Doom is gone and dead for good.

So essentially, Hudlin is above following cannon and correct characterization. Oh and the dialoge in these issues are horrible as well (nothing new there of course)

and t'challa's royal guard, let's not forget, give peter cornrows. let's not forget.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I don't think he's a bad writer so much as he's just a bad person.

I actually enjoyed the last few issues of BP.

Just as bad as anybody else. Not nice to judge, especially when you consider the skeletons we hide in our own closets. ermm

Also, how many posters on here have ever had a comic published by Marvel, or for that matter any comic company?

Originally posted by Disappear
and t'challa's royal guard, let's not forget, give peter cornrows. let's not forget.

Dear god that was the worst part 😛

But seriously, you would think that trained warriors like that would have somthing better to do then braid hair?

Originally posted by His Airness
Just as bad as anybody else. Not nice to judge, especially when you consider the skeletons we hide in our own closets. ermm

Yeah . . . metaphorical skeletons . . .

Originally posted by His Airness
Also, how many posters on here have ever had a comic published by Marvel, or for that matter any comic company?

I can think of at least one 131

Quzelxzyq!

And and on the topic of bad continuity and characterization, you can add Wild Kingdom's crappy regard for past events and characterization.

Originally posted by Disappear
you're psychic? congratulations.

here's why the things you're saying are ignorant, unrealistic and just generally racist in their own right:

1. bishop isn't black because he's part aboriginal? he was "black enough" to be considered a black mutant prior to x-treme x-men, but because gateway [an aboriginal whose people experienced the same racism as africans brought to america during the time of slavery] is his ancestor, he's not black anymore? from at least his grandmother's generation, the bishops have lived in america and faced not only the racial profiling of being black, but also of having mutants in the family. he's been through MORE oppression and racial intolerance than any actual black person in this day and age, due not only to his mutant heritage but to the color of his skin. but he's not black enough because claremont thought it would be neat for gateway to be his relative? do some research.

Did you see this bit.

Originally posted by Alfheim

Bishop doesnt count hes aborignial and so is Gateway, ITS GOOD THAT THEYVVE ADDED THEM but I want more black males. Please correct me if im wrong.

Im well aware that aborignals can be considered to be black but because im of African decent im mainly interested in characters of African decent. That doesnt mean I dont think that other ethnic groups should be added.

Let me make an example. If im part of a family I am more concerned with my family than other families. This does NOT mean that I dont think that other famalies should not have rights but I am more concerned with my immediate family because they are closer to me. This is hot a hard or unreasonable concept.

Originally posted by Disappear

2. the "white man" gave storm straight hair and blue eyes to make her "less threatening" as a black character? give me a ****ing break. D, you seem to be a storm fan of a relatively high order. surely you must know that storm came from an amalgamation of two characters rejected by DC; a cat woman and some bird woman. the cat woman became the main template, but to rationalize the wind/weather powers of the bird woman, they changed her appearance and grafted her into her own mythology. she's from a line of african women who possess those traits as a symbol of the "goddessness" in their "bright lady" religion. clearly that wasn't an effort to make the character more ****ing interesting, a plot line which has lasted until this very day, but just some scheme to trick us white people into accepting a black character. do some research.

Whats that got to do with giving her straight white hair and blue eyes?

Originally posted by Disappear

3. everett ross was put in place to make people less threatened by t'challa's dominance as a black man? are you ****ing kidding me? it's like you have a compulsion to twist things so they make white people look inherently racist. i've read years of black panther stories, i'm entirely white [irish, mostly] and haven't once given two shits about this "threatening dominance" you claim exists. it was a new, unexplored framework for telling the stories, and it worked well. t'challa wasn't any less the focal point of the series because of it. it's not like us white readers were confused or set at ease by ross referring to t'challa as "my client." i didn't sit at home thinking, "well, i don't know who this client is, but i'm relatively certain he's NOT black. phew." cooking up stories about how you think white people act doesn't make you a victim of racism. it makes you a racist.

Er...dont think I said anything about everet ross. 😕

Originally posted by Disappear

4. storm kissing everybody? really, who "everybody" was she kissing "back then"? because, as i see it, "back then" refers to a time a while ago which isn't within the last few years of common knowledge. because, as i remember my x-men history, storm was in an intimate, long-standing relationship with forge for a good time of her tenure as an x-man. forge, a cheyenne indian whose people not only were abused, attacked and cheated by the european settlers in america, but whose people also faced discrimination from other indian tribes prior to, during, and after those times. oh shit, i mean, she was just dating some white guy. then she had a flirtation with cable; a kindred spirit who'd fought his entire life for equality among the races in his time and who saw the same passion and fire in storm. **** me, i MEANT, just some other white guy. then, what, she got kidnapped by shaitan and that nonsense. big whoop, it was an alien story. then, in uncanny, she kisses wolverine [a lost soul who is not only one of her closest friends, but also another "kindred spirit" as a freedom fighter and mutant] and nightcrawler [again, one of her closest friends, who is UNIVERSALLY discriminated against based on his appearance.] GOD DAMNIT! i mean, just some white guys. and no, some of it didn't make any sense, but that's what happens when different creative teams have different ideas. shit happens. thank GOD hudlin had the brilliant idea to ignore the entirety of storm's romantic past and slapped her and t'challa together after a short reunion of a relationship. but hey, at least they're the same color. finally some justice in comics.

I wasnt moaning about this. You got me mixed up with somebody else.

Originally posted by Disappear

5. the new mutants/new x-men writers decided to add in minority characters, somehow ONLY to attract a fanbase with minority readers, then depowered/killed their characters off because somehow they were unable to handle writing stories with colored character in them? bull****ingshit. first, a DIFFERENT creative team was responsible for depowering/killing the characters than the original creators, so that automatically throws that idea out the window already. then there's the fact that they HAD TO depower a portion of their cast to fit with the House of M fallout, and their decidedly violent storylines called for multiple student deaths. david got depowered [boo ****ing hoo] but he's not dead. tag got killed, and suddenly it's a racial thing? he was killed for the same reason cypher [a WHITE character] was killed; he'd used up is usefulness. how many stories could they really write where people needed to be mind-controlled into being chased off? he got his moment in the sun in the hellions mini-series, but that's really all they could do with a power as limited and useless as that. so he was one of, what, two dozen students to die? what about quill, or icarus, or the myriad other students who died? because they killed a student who wasn't white, it's some racially-motivated plot? quit patting yourselves on the back, you didn't figure shit out. you made up some dumbass story to validate your opinion, and insulted a number of hard-working people in the industry to do so. way to go.

You know what I think you were looking for an argument. Did you notice the positive statements I made?

1.

Originally posted by Alfheim

In all afirness the black female mutants are quite cool,

2.

Originally posted by Alfheim
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shola_Inkosi

[B]Shola is a self-described "combat telekinetic" and also has a low-level of telepathic abilities. His telekinetic abilities are mostly destructive in nature, but he has also displayed precise fine motor control, the peak of which was obliterating a granite slab to dust, removing that dust from clothing and the surrounding environment, compacting the dust into a granite spear, then re-obliterating the spear back into dust (shown in Mekanix). However, in the Excalibur series his powers were mostly destructive. 😎

[/B]

Did you notice how I said he was badass?

3.

Originally posted by Alfheim

Hell if they had kept them alive and left them with their powers I couldnt argue that there not trying.

What does this imply? This implies that I appreciated their work but im pissed they killed them off or depowered them. Whats the point of creating a fine piece of art if your going to burn it?

Originally posted by Disappear

6. apocalypse is of african descent, so if you want to rope him into your black comic character grouping, go for it. just ignore the fact that he's decidedly non-racial [blue on grey] BECAUSE of his views on mutant supremacy. he sees things as "human" and "mutant," not as "white," "black," "hispanic," "asian" or otherwise. but congratulations for getting pissed that the biggest mutant megalomaniac in x-men history isn't waving his black card around. way to completely miss the point.

If there were enough black characters I wouldnt complain.

Originally posted by Disappear

7. you completely ignore the racial storylines that are actually progressive or thought-provoking. how about in peter milligan's [a white man's] x-statix, where the issue of being black was not only tied into celebrity and mutant status, but the bigotry that exists between blacks was brought up? the spike's issues with the anarchist for not letting him on the team, because the spike was "younger, badder and blacker" than him? that type of shit gets overlooked, because white people only care about downplaying the black man to subservient roles. clearly. what about in j. michael straczynski's supreme power, where the same intra-racial conflict was brought up again between the blur and nighthawk? "house negro" v. "field negro," as if one group of black people have a right to claim worse oppression and bigotry because of their immediate surroundings. as if feeling the pain of their ancestors, and the intolerance of racism, is only something the less-well-off [funny, considering how much richer than stanley nighthawk was] can do. that storyline must not have existed.

Er no.
1.Thats why I said I appreciated the female mutants
2. I think Shola Inkosi is badass.
3. I aprreciated what they did but they didnt have to kill them off.

If you want to be insulting at least have the decency to point out were I made positive statements. Dont pick the bits you like to bite my head off.

Originally posted by Disappear

i'm sure there were times in the comic industry, even times in the present day, when race has played a factor in decisions being made. making a character white or black or asian or mexican or whatever. promoting certain characters over others. i'm not alleging that things like that don't exist.

Exactly but your still come on here and started biting my head off, eventhough ive actually made some positive statements. If you just admitted that happens why are telling me in stupid in thinking its a conspiracy? The fcat of the matter is if I accuse anything of being racist you will say its not despite the fcat you know it happens.

Originally posted by Disappear

but this thread's turned into some pity party where you've gathered up and said "look what they did to us," "look what they did to our black characters, JUST FOR BEING BLACK," when you have no idea whether that's the case. no references to other minorities being discriminated against in terms of characters or character-usage. what about, as SC said, the fact that hudlin's "plight of the minority" campaign only applies to black characters? what about the utter lack of jewish characters [they have, what, kitty? magneto? the thing? a couple d-list israeli characters?] what about hispanic, or asian? where're the big plots promoting their diversity and heritage?

You see this is the sort of thing you do, your making assumptions. Did I say that other ethnic groups shouldnt be added? Didnt I actualy say its was GOOD that their are aborignal characters. Im all for other ethnic groups. Why dont you calm down.

Originally posted by Disappear

if you've got a problem with how things are going down in the comic industry, get off your ass and do something. write to hudlin, write to mcduffie. write to joe quesada or stan lee or anyone. tell them how you feel, why you feel that way, and what you think should change. or work your ass off, get a position where you can MAKE change yourself, and do something about it. quit bitching on some internet forum like a bunch of girls with no prom dates. and do your ****ing research before you start accusing shit of being a white man's conspiracy.

Ok heres some questions.

1. If you were the only black person in a white dominated school and had to put up with racist abuse every day for years how would that affect you? How would you feel if your only friend who was Irish keeps banging on about how when he goes out he sees how white chicks like black guys then every once in a while flips out and starts calling you a ******? How would you feel if a friend of yours was asian did the same ****. Hell i dont think all white people are racist but your telling if YOU went through that you wouldnt be a little paranoid?

2. If you've just admitted that decsisons are based on race why is it not a possibility that characters are killed off or created in a certain way to appeal to white readers?

3. Do you think the fact that black mutants make less than 1 percent in the mutant population is acceptable in 2007? They make less than 1 percent so somehow its ok?

4. Isnt one of the purposes of a discussion forum to discuss things that you feel strongly about, which includes blacks im comics?

5 Why the *** are you assuming im not gonna do anything?

Actually in hindsight that looks they make about 3 percent of the population

Originally posted by Alfheim
1. If you were the only black person in a white dominated school and had to put up with racist abuse every day for years how would that affect you?
It might make me racist... did that happen to you? are you admitting to being racist and using the Et tu fallacy to justify your illogical actions?

Originally posted by Creshosk
It might make me racist... did that happen to you? are you admitting to being racist and using the Et tu fallacy to justify your illogical actions?
Originally posted by Alfheim
Hell i dont think all white people are racist but your telling if YOU went through that you wouldnt be a little paranoid?

1. Read the information
2. Process the information
3. Come to a conclusion.

Don't

1. Skim over the information. Pick want points suits your argument
2. Come to the conclusion you want.

alf, i'm sorry if you got the idea i was directing the whole thing at you because of my quote at the beginning. it wasn't meant as a personal attack on you, or on any one poster in particular. i was attempting to show the ugly, ignorant side of this rally the thread had turned into. it became a rant about how black characters were mistreated, underexposed, and set aside by the white man controlling the industry. it became a call for more black characters for the sake of black characters. it seemed like the only criteria you [collectively] cared about was that the character's skin was black. if he wasn't a black character, he wasn't as important. if he was black, but had no character to speak of, somehow he deserved exposure and praises and etcetera. specifically the instances in which the creative teams who put their time, their effort and their own experiences into their writing were criticizes and outright insulted with no basis whatsoever aside from this thought-up conspiracy. those set me over the edge. so, before going further, i apologize for the coarseness of my language in the first post, and the tone i took in general.

in reply to your replies, alf, since you're the only one whose actually said anything; here goes.

your comment on the aboriginals seemed dismissive at best. it separated "them" [aboriginals, including gateway and bishop specifically] from "black males." you did say it was good seeing them put in, which i did overlook, but the wording of the sentence seemed to go along with the "not black enough" idea of saying bishop didn't count. also, this "only interested in characters of african descent" idea sets up a strong "us versus them" scenario in which white characters are not only dismissed, but also non-african black characters. that type of thinking, as much as you're entitled to it, is only good for creating tension, resentment, and eventually anger.

storm's hair and eyes were taken directly from the bird woman concept, as they couldn't keep the cat woman concept and tack on weather powers. wouldn't be sensical. and instead of just having her be a mesh of two characters from a rejected line-up [nightcrawler also came out of this rejected team,] they established a genetic reason linking her to a religion, making her a "goddess," and putting her within a new, unique mythology. they weren't throwing in bits of "white girl" to tone her down and make her more "acceptable" to a white audience. to be honest, the idea that a character would need to be "less black" for whites to find them acceptable is extremely insulting to me personally, and to the vast majority of comic readers who are not racially biased. again, this idea slants things and establishes two groups at odds with one another. it doesn't have to be that way, but it seems like an almost defensive reaction. you're unhappy, so it's got to be someone else's problem ****ing up your good time, and you're not gonna stand for their bullshit. not only can a rational conversation not occur within those confines, but it's a thought process doomed for failure.

a comment was made on the pages prior to this one that everett k. ross was likely put in place to ease a white person's mind when faced with the dominant african character that is the black panther. without checking i don't know who said it, but it was said, and as i explained, my post was directed to the group; not any one poster. that said, i stand by what i said earlier, and reiterate that the very idea that, as a white person, i would be unable to handle a character like t'challa without a white character walking me through it is incredibly insulting. it assumes far too much in the sense that somehow this MUST be the reason, and that's why white people could read BP; and far too little in assuming we, white readers that is, are incapable of functioning beyond some artificial racial barrier you allege exists. that we can't handle a strong black character simply because we're white. it's an insult, and it is racist thinking.

the storm thing just pissed me off. it's better for storm to be with a character who shares her skin color, despite it contrasting years of her continuity, than for her to have a complex, long-standing relationship with a character who ISN'T her same color? that sounds like a concept a bigoted white man from the mid-1900s would have come up with, not something an allegedly "progressive" writer [regardless of his color] in the year 2007 would've thought up. again, alf, it wasn't directed at you if you didn't say it. i was taking bits out of the conversation at large.

the comment was made, by someone with someone else agreeing, that maybe the creative team behind new x-men introduced a bunch of minority characters to dupe minority readers into picking it up, then killed 'em off or depowered them because they couldn't come up with any compelling stories involving non-whites. the idea is completely ludicrous, directly insulting of both creative teams whose agendas differed completely, and further insulting of the creators to allege that somehow they, as writers, are incapable of creating stories outside of a cookie-cutter, white-on-white-on-white setup. not only has it been proven not true through the various stories written by both teams, it makes unfair leaps in logic to assume any decision that affected a minority character was somehow an attack on them for being a minority. it's completely ridiculous. and alf, two of those three comments don't directly apply to new x-men. the third even seemed like a "damned if they do, damned if they don't" scenario, given the complaints about how it WAS done, and complaints about how it COULD HAVE been done. while you might have meant it as a compliment, as in "at least they're doing something, so i can't knock them for not trying," that's not how i read it originally. it still seems kind of skewed, to me, but i apologize if i misinterpreted.

at least apocalypse wasn't german. at least he wasn't russian. at least his megalomania can't be tied into a country's history of attempts at world domination [no offense meant to any germans or russians,] but stems from his mutancy. it's something of a no-prize, considering nobody makes mention of poccy's heritage anymore, but that's just not who the character was made to be.

while there were positive comments made, they all seemed to be coupled with more negative, racially-charged commentary. saying "well, black female characters seem popular, but i think black male characters aren't so popular because white people can't handle a strong black man" isn't really a positive statement overall. saying things like marvel "threw black people a bone" by casting michael clarke duncan as kingpin isn't a positive statement.

just because something exists doesn't mean it's the only answer. while i freely admit there is racially-motivated decision making going on, you can't lump all racially-involved decisions [any decision involving a minority character, conflict between races, etc] into that idea. that's an unfair scapegoat, and it puts not only unfair blame on the writers involved, it creates a false stigma AGAINST the creative teams who have to make decisions for any cast that isn't strictly white. saying tag and prodigy were killed and depowered because of racist decisions made by the creative team is absurd when you consider how many characters in total died or were depowered, editorial pressures put onto creative teams to fit into the flow of the comic industry and company events, etc. so, while i leave room to acknowledge its existence, i don't throw it around like i have the right to accuse just because i'm upset. i'm not contradicting myself at all by saying so.

i made the comments about other ethnic groups because noone during the "the world's against us" rant thought it prudent to bring up discrimination and unequal representation of other minorities. whether you believe that everyone should be getting represented equally or not, it wasn't mentioned. it had a "they're hating on the black man, we're the victims here, ignore everything else," feel, which did not address the bigger discrimination issues. that's why i said it was a pity party. i apologize if you're offended by that, but that's the way the last several pages of chat were going.

as for your personal experiences, i can only say that everyone's got their scar tissue, and i can't tell you how to handle yours. but, to the same extent, you can't assume your reaction to your traumas overrides anyone else's ability to empathize or find a different solution. i suppose you are entitled to think that way [after all, i'm no fascist,] but it doesn't belong in the realm of respectable adults or decent conversation. i'm sorry your past played out as it did for you. i like to think that, due to my own traumatic experiences in life, i haven't become prejudiced against the religious, the handicapped, or, coincidentally, the "black man" or those of mexican heritage. i like to think i'm beyond that kind of thinking, which only makes the allegations in this thread that much more insulting.

i already addressed the idea of racially-motivated decisions.

do i think the disproportionate amount of minorities in mainstream comics is acceptable? no. do i realize that bitching about it on the internet or blaming the situation on white people [the underlying assumption being that white people did it out of racist motivations] isn't going to change anything, and doesn't really address the actual issue? yes.

it's the internet. talk about what you want. but if what you're saying is offensive to someone, expect them to say what they want, too. and if you're going to discuss things that you find unfair or feel strongly about, maybe doing it in a way that doesn't insult not only a race of comic readers, but a race of people in general, is a better approach.

in my experience, the "whiners" are often the last ones to do anything that will amount to any change. if you already had sweeping changes in mind, a plan of attack to affect real change, and what i said was pointless and redundant, then good for you. either way, as you said, i can say what i want. it wasn't meant as an insult.

Ok to sumarise. Maybe it was going overboard to say that the black mutants were killed off because of racial reasons, but at the end of the day less than 3 percent black mutants is not acceptable. Due to personal experience and the fact there are so few decent black characters made me suspicious.

At the end of the day I dont think all white people are racist but at the same time I dont want to see something that is racist and over look it...sometimes its a fine line.

I think the female black mutants are fine but if I could think of ten more black male characters I would be fine.

Originally posted by Alfheim
1. Read the information
2. Process the information
3. Come to a conclusion.

Don't

1. Skim over the information. Pick want points suits your argument
2. Come to the conclusion you want.
3. Make a joke in poor taste to those who don't get your humor style.

There I put in the missing one.