What's So Bad About Hudlin? Really?

Started by Symmetric Chaos47 pages
Originally posted by Alfheim
Ok to sumarise. Maybe it was going overboard to say that the black mutants were killed off because of racial reasons, but at the end of the day less than 3 percent black mutants is not acceptable. Due to personal experience and the fact there are so few decent black characters made me suspicious.

The lack of Black characters in comics isn't a reflection of modern writers. It's more a reflection of the people who were writing for comics when the industry started up.

Many companies don't try to make new characters because they would rather stick with the ones they already know will make money for them.

Where did you come up with the 3% figure?

Originally posted by Creshosk
There I put in the missing one.

Well I wasnt saying I was racist was I? Also taking in the fact that there so few black mutant characters you can see why I came to that conclusion.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
The lack of Black characters in comics isn't a reflection of modern writers. It's more a reflection of the people who were writing for comics when the industry started up.

Many companies don't try to make new characters because they would rather stick with the ones they already know will make money for them.

Yeah so what? If I were making characters I wouldnt just make black ones.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos

Where did you come up with the 3% figure?

Its a guess of how many black characters there are out of the whole number of mutants who still have their powers.

At any rate the point is there are very few of them.

Originally posted by Disappear
you're psychic? congratulations.

here's why the things you're saying are ignorant, unrealistic and just generally racist in their own right:

1. bishop isn't black because he's part aboriginal? he was "black enough" to be considered a black mutant prior to x-treme x-men, but because gateway [an aboriginal whose people experienced the same racism as africans brought to america during the time of slavery] is his ancestor, he's not black anymore? from at least his grandmother's generation, the bishops have lived in america and faced not only the racial profiling of being black, but also of having mutants in the family. he's been through MORE oppression and racial intolerance than any actual black person in this day and age, due not only to his mutant heritage but to the color of his skin. but he's not black enough because claremont thought it would be neat for gateway to be his relative? do some research.

2. the "white man" gave storm straight hair and blue eyes to make her "less threatening" as a black character? give me a ****ing break. D, you seem to be a storm fan of a relatively high order. surely you must know that storm came from an amalgamation of two characters rejected by DC; a cat woman and some bird woman. the cat woman became the main template, but to rationalize the wind/weather powers of the bird woman, they changed her appearance and grafted her into her own mythology. she's from a line of african women who possess those traits as a symbol of the "goddessness" in their "bright lady" religion. clearly that wasn't an effort to make the character more ****ing interesting, a plot line which has lasted until this very day, but just some scheme to trick us white people into accepting a black character. do some research.

3. everett ross was put in place to make people less threatened by t'challa's dominance as a black man? are you ****ing kidding me? it's like you have a compulsion to twist things so they make white people look inherently racist. i've read years of black panther stories, i'm entirely white [irish, mostly] and haven't once given two shits about this "threatening dominance" you claim exists. it was a new, unexplored framework for telling the stories, and it worked well. t'challa wasn't any less the focal point of the series because of it. it's not like us white readers were confused or set at ease by ross referring to t'challa as "my client." i didn't sit at home thinking, "well, i don't know who this client is, but i'm relatively certain he's NOT black. phew." cooking up stories about how you think white people act doesn't make you a victim of racism. it makes you a racist.

4. storm kissing everybody? really, who "everybody" was she kissing "back then"? because, as i see it, "back then" refers to a time a while ago which isn't within the last few years of common knowledge. because, as i remember my x-men history, storm was in an intimate, long-standing relationship with forge for a good time of her tenure as an x-man. forge, a cheyenne indian whose people not only were abused, attacked and cheated by the european settlers in america, but whose people also faced discrimination from other indian tribes prior to, during, and after those times. oh shit, i mean, she was just dating some white guy. then she had a flirtation with cable; a kindred spirit who'd fought his entire life for equality among the races in his time and who saw the same passion and fire in storm. **** me, i MEANT, just some other white guy. then, what, she got kidnapped by shaitan and that nonsense. big whoop, it was an alien story. then, in uncanny, she kisses wolverine [a lost soul who is not only one of her closest friends, but also another "kindred spirit" as a freedom fighter and mutant] and nightcrawler [again, one of her closest friends, who is UNIVERSALLY discriminated against based on his appearance.] GOD DAMNIT! i mean, just some white guys. and no, some of it didn't make any sense, but that's what happens when different creative teams have different ideas. shit happens. thank GOD hudlin had the brilliant idea to ignore the entirety of storm's romantic past and slapped her and t'challa together after a short reunion of a relationship. but hey, at least they're the same color. finally some justice in comics.

5. the new mutants/new x-men writers decided to add in minority characters, somehow ONLY to attract a fanbase with minority readers, then depowered/killed their characters off because somehow they were unable to handle writing stories with colored character in them? bull****ingshit. first, a DIFFERENT creative team was responsible for depowering/killing the characters than the original creators, so that automatically throws that idea out the window already. then there's the fact that they HAD TO depower a portion of their cast to fit with the House of M fallout, and their decidedly violent storylines called for multiple student deaths. david got depowered [boo ****ing hoo] but he's not dead. tag got killed, and suddenly it's a racial thing? he was killed for the same reason cypher [a WHITE character] was killed; he'd used up is usefulness. how many stories could they really write where people needed to be mind-controlled into being chased off? he got his moment in the sun in the hellions mini-series, but that's really all they could do with a power as limited and useless as that. so he was one of, what, two dozen students to die? what about quill, or icarus, or the myriad other students who died? because they killed a student who wasn't white, it's some racially-motivated plot? quit patting yourselves on the back, you didn't figure shit out. you made up some dumbass story to validate your opinion, and insulted a number of hard-working people in the industry to do so. way to go.

6. apocalypse is of african descent, so if you want to rope him into your black comic character grouping, go for it. just ignore the fact that he's decidedly non-racial [blue on grey] BECAUSE of his views on mutant supremacy. he sees things as "human" and "mutant," not as "white," "black," "hispanic," "asian" or otherwise. but congratulations for getting pissed that the biggest mutant megalomaniac in x-men history isn't waving his black card around. way to completely miss the point.

7. you completely ignore the racial storylines that are actually progressive or thought-provoking. how about in peter milligan's [a white man's] x-statix, where the issue of being black was not only tied into celebrity and mutant status, but the bigotry that exists between blacks was brought up? the spike's issues with the anarchist for not letting him on the team, because the spike was "younger, badder and blacker" than him? that type of shit gets overlooked, because white people only care about downplaying the black man to subservient roles. clearly. what about in j. michael straczynski's supreme power, where the same intra-racial conflict was brought up again between the blur and nighthawk? "house negro" v. "field negro," as if one group of black people have a right to claim worse oppression and bigotry because of their immediate surroundings. as if feeling the pain of their ancestors, and the intolerance of racism, is only something the less-well-off [funny, considering how much richer than stanley nighthawk was] can do. that storyline must not have existed.

i'm sure there were times in the comic industry, even times in the present day, when race has played a factor in decisions being made. making a character white or black or asian or mexican or whatever. promoting certain characters over others. i'm not alleging that things like that don't exist. but this thread's turned into some pity party where you've gathered up and said "look what they did to us," "look what they did to our black characters, JUST FOR BEING BLACK," when you have no idea whether that's the case. no references to other minorities being discriminated against in terms of characters or character-usage. what about, as SC said, the fact that hudlin's "plight of the minority" campaign only applies to black characters? what about the utter lack of jewish characters [they have, what, kitty? magneto? the thing? a couple d-list israeli characters?] what about hispanic, or asian? where're the big plots promoting their diversity and heritage?

if you've got a problem with how things are going down in the comic industry, get off your ass and do something. write to hudlin, write to mcduffie. write to joe quesada or stan lee or anyone. tell them how you feel, why you feel that way, and what you think should change. or work your ass off, get a position where you can MAKE change yourself, and do something about it. quit bitching on some internet forum like a bunch of girls with no prom dates. and do your ****ing research before you start accusing shit of being a white man's conspiracy.

Owned?

I agree with the fact that we need more minority characters, but people claiming that black characters being killed off is solely due to racism? Please.

Anyone notice how storm's lips suddenly grew in the latest comics? like every comic their size is doubled, lame writers trying to make her more african?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Its a guess of how many black characters there are out of the whole number of mutants who still have their powers.

At any rate the point is there are very few of them.

Well most of the ones that didn't get depowered where well known and most of the well known ones are white 😬

IMO it's about money not race.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Well most of the ones that didn't get depowered where well known and most of the well known ones are white 😬

IMO it's about money not race.

I heard it was about cutting down on the D/C list characters in the Marvel universe?

I think they could've found a better way though.

Originally posted by llagrok
Owned?

I agree with the fact that we need more minority characters, but people claiming that black characters being killed off is solely due to racism? Please.

Look I cant prove 100 percent that it was racially motivated and I can see why you might flip out. At the end of the day its already been admitted that there are racial motivations in creating characters.

Originally posted by Disappear

i'm sure there were times in the comic industry, even times in the present day, when race has played a factor in decisions being made. making a character white or black or asian or mexican or whatever. promoting certain characters over others. i'm not alleging that things like that don't exist.

Good points were made about Tag and I can see why they killed him off, but I dunno about the other characters like Maggot and Prodigy. You see the thing is we cant afford to get loads of characters killed off, im not saying that it cant happen but what I wanna know is when is something racially motivated?

Im sure it would be niave to say there is no racism at all but its like people admit there must be racial motivation but whenever somebody complains about it, its never racism. So when is it racially motivated?

What points are people trying to make in this Thread?

Most think Hudlins a bad writer!?

Ok....get over it.

Complain to marvel who offered the Job to Hudlin three times before he accepted.

Most dont like that Hudlins characters are more black, because, they braid hair or that he has mostly blacks in his books, Seriously!?

...wow...

My wife could be considered a trained warrior by modern day standards (being deployed multiple times to the middle east and all).

Shes black, She braids hair, black people like braids.

Most dont like Hudlin because he changed the history of Black panther/Klaw etc!?

...wow...

How many recons have happened in comics to date.

The Hypocrisy in this thread is frighting at times.

Just dont read his comics.

Trust me, its really IS that simple.

Good to see you've found the enter button Apollo.

Alfheim, I agree that there's a lack of decent black characters, and I also think that Cecilia Reyes had limitless potential. Just think about it like this though, depowered isn't the same as being killed off is it? Prodigy is still a part of the new x-men 🙂

They didn't kill him off did they? I haven't read the latest 3 issues.

Originally posted by llagrok
Good to see you've found the enter button Apollo.

Alfheim, I agree that there's a lack of decent black characters, and I also think that Cecilia Reyes had limitless potential. Just think about it like this though, depowered isn't the same as being killed off is it? Prodigy is still a part of the new x-men 🙂

They didn't kill him off did they? I haven't read the latest 3 issues.

Well...ok but depoewring spmebody with badass powers is fine? I hope they give him his powers back.

Yeah but still I wanna know when is something racial motivated becuase you seem to be saying that there isnt any. Im pretty sure you must think there must be some racial motivations in marvel but why is it anybody points it out, its false?

Dont you think then at least the lack of black characters might be racially motivated?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Well...ok but depoewring spmebody with badass powers is fine? I hope they give him his powers back.

Yeah but still I wanna know when is something racial motivated becuase you seem to be saying that there isnt any. Im pretty sure you must think there must be some racial motivations in marvel but why is it anybody points it out, its false?

I think there's a lot of racial motivation when it comes to the creation of character, not the removal 🙂

Originally posted by llagrok
I think there's a lot of racial motivation when it comes to the creation of character, not the removal 🙂

Why would it just apply to creation and not removal?

Originally posted by Alfheim
Why would it just apply to creation and not removal?

Because I don't think they go "kaaay, let's kill off some minorities" but rather "I think it would suit her personality way better if she was black"

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Because I don't fit with your perception of what a Muslim man should be like?

My bad. from your post I thought you were Hispanic.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I have no idea what you just said. In fact I really don't care.
[/B]

you don't get it. Duely noted.
(incidentally, the fact that you didn't understand me might be the reason you don't like Hudlin's style)

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Who? It's just as valid as lack of Black people. Unless of course you think that Hispanics are less than human or something.
[/B]

What planet are you from? Did you READ what I wrote?

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
Besides claiming that you read Hudlin's writing just because he's Black what are you doing?[/B]

Having a conversation with somebody who can feel me.

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
😐 So because they're not Black you can't understand them?
[/B]

Think about what your saying. Then think about what I said.

I am not Hispanic. What could I REALLY know about BEING Hispanic?

That doesn't mean you don't try to understand. Just that at the end of the day they are who they are and I am who I am (What can a Man REALLY know about being a woman, or vise verse).

Originally posted by Symmetric Chaos
I think you have to get over this race thing dude. There's a hell of a lot more to the way a person views the world than the color of their skin. [/B]

Technically I don't HAVE to do anything, but stay Black and Die. dude.

As to there being more, I agree.

But to act like People don't view the world that way is, personally, insulting (The equivalent of people calling Dave Chapelle crazy).

Why is that people hate to be told what they truly are? If today someone came to me and told me that I was prejudice against white people I couldn't deny it. Do I hate or dislike them? No, but because of my environment and previous encounters with them it's a more natural feeling.

Now White people would like to believe that their not prejudice but they are. They feel more comfortable around white people, they're more likely to trust in a white person than a black person, they will associate evil with black more times than they do white, etc. It's easily conceivable, considering every time you watch the news you see Deandre getting arrested. Or every time you toon in to a television show the black guys the drug dealer and the white guys the cop or judge. Subconsciously these negative images of black people and the positive images of white people have an effect on you.

Do I think Reggie Hudlin is a racist like many of you implied? No, however he is prejudice.

Is Reggie Hudlin the greatest writer? No, but if you actually take the times to read his comics without a bias, and pay attention to his work. You may realize there's more truth to his writing than you think.

I'm not prejudiced. I grew up living in a neighbourhood where most were immigrants 🙂

If you say that most Muslims suppress womens free will, are you prejudiced or perceptive?

Originally posted by llagrok
Because I don't think they go "kaaay, let's kill off some minorities" but rather "I think it would suit her personality way better if she was black"

Right, so you dont think that reason why they dont create black characters sometimes could be racially motivated?

Originally posted by llagrok
I'm not prejudiced. I grew up living in a neighbourhood where most were immigrants 🙂

If you say that most Muslims suppress womens free will, are you prejudiced or perceptive?

Y-yeah but but you from Norway. Only white people live in Norway and the wear clogs and ****, their all blonde and have pony tails. Oh **** my bad thats Sweden. 😛

I think it's partially because most comic book writers are white. It probably doesn't occur to them that the majority of a super hero team could actually be Asian or black. It's not necessarily a conscious choice though.

Hudlin doesn't help things when he tries to get back at the white man by doing everything in his power to team up the black characters and make them as strong as possible.

Over the last few years we've had an influx of immigrants from Somalia and Thailand. That's when the crime skyrocketed in our capital, no pun intended. But hey it's not their fault at all, when the government are too lazy to properly educate people and get 'em jobs, it can only go one way 🙂

Want prejudice, go play Xbox live. If I utter one word in Norwegian, I'm Nazi.

Originally posted by llagrok
I think it's partially because most comic book writers are white. It probably doesn't occur to them that the majority of a super hero team could actually be Asian or black. It's not necessarily a conscious choice though.

I dont neccsarily want a whole team to be black. Theres a big difference between a whole team being black and black mutants being 3 percent, thats pathetic. If there were ten decent black mutant characters I would be satisified, with enough decent black males within the group.

You see this is what I dont like....on one hand you disagree with black people when you say writers are being racist, ok fair enough. Maybe in some circumstances its exaggerated but on the other hand im not being bad its like white people are now going to the extreme and saying that racism doesnt exist. Dont you think thats a bit naive?

Originally posted by llagrok

Hudlin doesn't help things when he tries to get back at the white man by doing everything in his power to team up the black characters and make them as strong as possible.

Well if for example there werent only 3 percent black mutants he wouldnt care would he?

Originally posted by llagrok

Over the last few years we've had an influx of immigrants from Somalia and Thailand. That's when the crime skyrocketed in our capital, no pun intended. But hey it's not their fault at all, when the government are too lazy to properly educate people and get 'em jobs, it can only go one way 🙂

By the way I was only joking, just so you know. I dont know that much about Norway but I think they way in which they have dealt with neo-nazis is really cool, they dont **** about.

Originally posted by llagrok

Want prejudice, go play Xbox live. If I utter one word in Norwegian, I'm Nazi.

For real. Thats ****ed up, blame the black metallers.

Originally posted by llagrok
I think it's partially because most comic book writers are white. It probably doesn't occur to them that the majority of a super hero team could actually be Asian or black. It's not necessarily a conscious choice though.

It has less to do with the majority of comic writers being white then it does with the majority of comic writers being American. Around 70% of the American population is white... so the fact that most characters are white shouldn't surprise anyone, it's only accurate.

3/10 comic characters should be a minority (and not just black)... and if it isn't like that now the ratio is certainly close.

Originally posted by srankmissingnin
It has less to do with the majority of comic writers being white then it does with the majority of comic writers being American. Around 70% of the American population is white... so the fact that most characters are white shouldn't surprise anyone, it's only accurate.

3/10 comic characters should be a minority (and not just black)... and if it isn't like that now the ratio is certainly close.

Well there are about 3 percent mutants who are black thats pathetic.