Mace Windu Vs Darth Nihilus

Originally posted by Lightsnake
The fight scene contradicts nothing, Nebaris. In fact, it matches up to the movie almost exactly and the scene does follow the movie exactly: Yoda dodging hurled senate pods. And yes, word by Word:

http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780345428837&view=auqa

Q: What were Mr. Lucas's line-edits like? Was he a tough editor?

MS: Not tough so much as exceedingly detailed, though I suspect he would have been very tough indeed if I hadn't been quite so scrupulously faithful to the spirit of his story. I mean, he literally went over it word-by-word, even to the point of altering descriptives to adjust the characters' inflections.

The quote saren;t ambiguous. They state directly most powerful and have been reviewed and published as canon. Nothing of the sort has been done from your platform. You have nothing. And apparently, despise what the movie shows, the EU is STILL VALID....can you explain that? I asked Leland about it...according to him, it's fine!

And according to Leland: Direct actions in contradictions are N-canon, but narrative, thoughts and times between scenes are certainly canon.

And prove Nihilus can't fight to save his life?
He died in a fight!

And Nihilus outclasses Mace with the force, a sunlike Palpatine, Yoda, Luke or jacen, Mace can't deal with the drain. but remove that and Mace would butcher him

As a matter of fact Lightsnake if this was purely force fight Nihilus would take it against mace since Mace as far as I am concernd isn't that good at force duels, my intention with question that Mace just stomped him was that we never see Nihilus fully potential we only see him after been weakend twice first by his former slave and then by the Exile, I agree with you that the Nihilus we see in the Game fighting the Exile would lose but the one with full power who riped a ship from Malacor V and having destroyed entire planets, I just think the Battle would play out different.

And apparently, despise what the movie shows, the EU is STILL VALID....can you explain that? I asked Leland about it...according to him, it's fine!

1. Link?
2. Leland Chee isn't a God, he doesn't dictate the definition of what a contradiction is.
3. Half of the time he posts in the forums, he doesn't even give much thought to his answers, and mostly just skims through your question given he has about 100 new ones thrown at him everytime he logs in.
4. You're probably taking what he said out of context (which reinforces why you need to provide a link). If random EU source has Mace moving at the speed of sound, it clearly contradicts the movies. Only a moron would disagree, and LC isn't a moron.

Mace can't deal with the drain. but remove that and Mace would butcher him

No. Nihilus is powerful without his drain ability, and the fact that his drain ability is so effective is testament to his strength. Anyways:

1. With the force, he threw Traya, a proven force titan, around like a ragdole.

2. He escaped a physical death by transferring his consciousness into his armour when his physical body died.

3. He tore his entire fleet, including his starship; the Ravager out from the mass shadows of Malachor.

4. While on his ship, he would constantly hold his entire ship together, and dominate and control the minds of his crew. This kind of continuous use of the force would be extremely draining on his strength, yet even n this state, he was able to instantly stun The Exile, Visas Marr and the Mandalore at once. And even after subsequently being weakened by draining The Exile - a wound in the force, he was able to put up a good fight against all three of them, and almost defeat them.

He's uber, and > Mace Windu, with or without his drain.

1. Check the Leland thread.
2. Chee dictates what is and what is not valid in SW continuity. There's no contradiction, he's saying: You just think there is.
3. Mmhmm. Whatever. Beaten much?
4. Except it doesn't. Either Lucas slows it down or he moves faster in other areas. Can't say it contradicts the movies when it's fully canon according to LFL! Sorry!

1. It's a very big thread. Provide a link to the page.

2. If he doesn't think there's a contradiction, he's a moron, and no moron will ever dictate what I can or cannot debate.

3. No, it's true. he does it a lot. Now provide a link, or stfu and gtfo.

4. Bullshit. The movies are what they are, and you have to accept that. If time was slowed down or sped up, it would have been made obvious. Wonderful excuse though.

And on topic, pretty much every force titan has been proven to be able to amp up their speeds to a level far beyond any movie character. Seeing as Nihilus is easily as strong as most of them with the force, there's no reason to suggest that he can't either, which means that Mace is going down in saber combat too.

LOL! by what means? Oh, right...hyperbolic description? The same avenue as the books?

You're wrong and LFL says so! Oh, and when we saw Nihilus move, he wasn't fast at all. Hypocrite

1. Find it yourself. You're not worth the effort.
2. He's a moron with power. And what he says goes. Therefore, it is canon and did happen, according to the people in power. In other words: no contradictions. you just think there are.
3. Except the movies never put limits on anything. Unless Yoda or Mace screa "I can't go any faster" than you have no point.

Sorry

LOL! by what means? Oh, right...hyperbolic description? The same avenue as the books?

Not everything that goes against you is hyperbole Lightsnake. Now the difference between sources such as DE and PoD, and some of the PT sources is that the former two sources don't contradict the movies, whereas the latter do.

You're wrong and LFL says so! Oh, and when we saw Nihilus move, he wasn't fast at all. Hypocrite

Gameplay.

1. Find it yourself. You're not worth the effort.

It is up to you to provide your proof Lightsnake. If you don't, you're as god as conceding the argument.

2. He's a moron with power. And what he says goes. Therefore, it is canon and did happen, according to the people in power. In other words: no contradictions. you just think there are.

Again, these 'people in power' don't dictate the definition of a contradiction.

3. Except the movies never put limits on anything. Unless Yoda or Mace screa "I can't go any faster" than you have no point.

If they could move at the speeds that they could in the novels, they would have.

Originally posted by allfg
Not everything that goes against you is hyperbole Lightsnake. Now the difference between sources such as DE and PoD, and some of the PT sources is that the former two sources don't contradict the movies, whereas the latter do.

If they could move at the speeds that they could in the novels, they would have.

They just modified the speed in the movie so that oure simply human eyes could follow correct Lightsnake?

There's no contradiction. You just think there is.

No, there are.

Leland and LFL>You

Again, Leland is not a God, he can't dictate what the meaning of a contradiction is.

Lucas's approval>You

Again, by that logic, every single contradiction in the novel still counts as canon, despite them contradicting with the movie.

Proof of his speed, or enough

Ridiculous. Gameplay is completely N canon, unless you want to argue that Carth Onasi can survive multiple lightsaber hits.

No. I gave you the source of it. Find it yourself

Considering the source contains about 1,000 different posts, you'll need to provide exactly where it is said.

Neither do you. they say there's no contradiction. I believe them

If Mace could move at the speeds he could in the novels, why didn't he in the movies? He would have been able to whoop Palpatine's ass with the speed that's described in Shatterpoint. And the duel only happened to be the most important one of his life... Face it, it's a contradiction.

Prove it.

Mace's duel with Palpatine was pretty much the most important one of his life.

His speed described in Shatterpoint would have given him the edge in combat against Palpatine.

Yet he was slow.

Now unless he wanted to lose the fight, we have to believe that he simply can't move at those speeds. Contradiction.

In fact, you have no visual venue for your argument...just possible hyperbolic descriptions from books.

No hyperbole. Saying that doesn't make it so. Now Luke wielding his one saber like they were twenty is hyperbole. The description regarding Bane's speed wasn't, it goes into much detail, and is entirely accurate and factual.

Apparently Palpatine and Yoda have moved that fast in movie..

What are you talking about? Palpatine was slow, and while Yoda was exceptionally agile and pretty fast, he was no Bane in speed.

I see no reason Karpyshyn should supercede actual canon and Lucas's intentions

How is Drew making Bane faster than any movie character going against canon?

Originally posted by Utrigita
They just modified the speed in the movie so that oure simply human eyes could follow correct Lightsnake?

If they did slow down time, it would have been made obvious (sound would have slowed down etc., yet it didn't).

Originally posted by allfg
No, there are.

How is Drew making Bane faster than any movie character going against canon?

I know you like Bane a lot, but consider he's not the strongest.

There really aren't.

Yes, there are.

They simply don't move as fast in the movie and technology constraints don't portray their limits.

Out of story explanations don't cut it Lightsnake. The movies are what they are, and they happen to be the highest form of canon. Deal with it.

Please...you have the entire EU

And you have the movies against you. Movies > EU.

LFL and Lucas against you here

No I don't. You still haven't sourced anything, btw.

And again: WHAT is this contradiction?

I've explained what they are perfectly well.

LFL is deciding you are wrong. the man who determines what are and what are not contradictions in SW says you are wrong.
Can you please take a long, hard look at your opinion?

Again, Leland is still not allowed to rewrite the English Dictionary.

Just the martial prowess ones confirmed by the EU are fine. There aren't as many contradictions as you think and you know I( asked Leland exactly what goes. But absence of proof isn't proof of absence

It's not as simply as 'absence of proof isn't proof of absence' when discussing the skill levels of how warriors fight; a fighter naturally shows his limits while fighting, unless there is a valid reason as to why he wouldn't (for example, if he was throwing the fight).

It's not dependent on gameplay. the only times we see Nihilus move, he's slow. Unless you can argue otherwise, he is indeed slower than what Mace has shown

The whole 'it's not dependant on gameplay' argument doesn't apply; we're not talking about gamestats. Fact is, gameplay is 100% non canon, and unless you want to argue that Revan can survive multiple lightsaber hits (it's not dependant on gameplay either), you have no case, and should concede.

And I'm not digging through them: you have what he said and you have the source.
Find it if you wish

Again, it's up to you, so either post a direct link, or concede.

Palpatine's apparently just as fast as Mace is. heading at those speeds in an office are different than in the jungle.

LOL! Right, so it's because they're in an office that Mace is slow. Anywhere else, he would have been uber quick. 🙄
Erm yeah, no.

The fact remains: Shatterpoint is fully canon. Lucas himself read and approved it

Doesn't mean that aspects inside it aren't subject to being retconned.

Apparently in the novelization, Palpatine was just as fast as Mace was and evenly matched...this is what Lucas approved

And the novelisation contradicts in this case. Moot point.

Technology constraints and stuntwork. So?

Out of story explanations don't cut it Lightsnake. The movies are what they are, and they happen to be the highest form of canon. Deal with it.

We don't have to. We work out any 'contradiction' with an explanation of sorts.
The facet is, unless Shatterpoint is declared N-Canon-and Lucas didn't want to do so, apparently, since he read it and wrote the foreward- then Mace can move at those speeds

Lucas said in an interview that the EU was a different world to his, and that he hasn't even read most of the books. Proof that he read Shatterpoint? And again, just because Lucas leaves something in, doesn't mean it isn't subject to being invalid, as can be seen with the contradictions inside the movie novelisations.

moving so fast 'time seemed to slow' for everyone else is also hyperbole. Don't have it both ways, because it goes into just as much detail of other speed.

The rest was very detailed.

And continuously saying there're contradictions doesn't make it show.
Now, even if there are, then it doesn't matter. In the EU, the canon part of Star Wars, they move just as fast. You'll have to accept that

You'll have to accept that as canon as the EU is, it was always come second to the movies. They contradict, deal with it.

False. We never saw Bane move visually so you can't tell.

? We have a novelisation perfectly describing how quickly he can move, and it's beyond the speeds that the movie characters can move at.

And did you ignore Nai's post on just how fast Yoda was in the movies? or Papatine matching him? Yeah, they were pretty much blurs in their saber duel.

At EoD? Most of his figures were just plain wrong, and the fact is: we can easily follow Yoda's movements, whereas trained force users couldn't follow Bane's. Bane's faster, you'll have to accept it. And they weren't blurs in their duel, I could see everything perfectly.

Either way, it's no matter. the EU has shown what Yoda can do. And it's canon

And still subject to being retconned by higher forms of canon.

Drew can't do that. Plain and simply, Lucas's approved material puts the characters above Bane, so Drew can't do anything.

His 'approved material' contradicts the movies.

I know you like Bane a lot, but consider he's not the strongest.

WEll I like Bane..a lot( 😛 ), and I know he's not the strongest, but he is above any movie character, and you have the movies to blame for that.

Originally posted by allfg
Yes, there are.

Out of story explanations don't cut it Lightsnake. The movies are what they are, and they happen to be the highest form of canon. Deal with it.

WEll I like Bane..a lot( 😛 ), and I know he's not the strongest, but he is above any movie character, and you have the movies to blame for that.

Just accept it and you'll be better off for it. You're in denial with terrible arguments that contradict LFL's very canon policy and Lucas's own decisions.

quit pretending you know best and just admit you're wrong on this issue.
The people who DECIDE THIS FOR A LIVING have decided you're wrong. They have retconned nothing. in fact, it's been referenced in later, approved, complete canon.

There's no argument here. You were fine with it until you realized it threatened your precious Bane.

Stop it already. Lucas's own approvaloverrides ANYTHING you have to say

Again, just because GL approved it, it doesn't mean that nothing in it is subject to being retconned. Here's an example: the RotS novelisation.

and those explanations DO work.

No they don't, because we debate with in-story logic.

There's nothing to argue here: Their EU movements are canon unless declared otherwise

Again, not LC or any other LFL employee has the right to change the english language. And something doesn't have to be declared an infinity for it to contain contradictions.

And accoridng to the head of continuity there's no problem. why can't you get this, already?

LC is infallible? Who would have guessed?

Yes I have: That thread. I'm not going to hold your hand and find it for you.

And I'm not looking through hundreds of posts to find proof that it is up to you to provide. I take it you've conceded, then?

He's allowed to decide what is and isn't valid for SW canon. If you want to get so technical, maybe we should take out TIE Fighters for exploding and having sound in space.

That's completely different; in terms of the laws of science inside the SW universe, that stuff happens and doesn't contradict anything.

You're doing yourself no favors, just stop. The movie characters CAN move that fast. It's canon due to the EU

Nope, it's N Canon due to the movies.

And they showed their futher limits in the EU. You're focusing totally on proof of absence which is a completely logical fallacy.

Read what I said again, I'm not working under that fallacy.

Simplest explanation: They're just slowed down for viewer benefit

If that was so, than the effects of this (inconsistent sound, for example) would have been made apparent.

Nihilus's cutscene movements

LOL, so you're basing his fighting speed at how quickly he walks? By that logic, Yoda is slower than Darth Vader. The point is, we never see Nihilus duel in a cutscene, we only ever see him use force attacks, for which displays of exponential speed are not necessary.

and his attack speed as shown are quite slow.

Gameplay. N Canon.

Do you have any case, I have to ask?
I have some evidence, you have...nothing

1. Given that Nihilus' knowledge was so vast that he knew of techniques such as transferring his consciousness into his armour, I'm guessing he knows how to enhance his speed with the force.

2. Given how strong he is in the force, there's no reason to suggest that he can't amp up his speed to the level of people like Bane and Sidious, which is beyond people like Mace and Yoda.

I gave you the source. Not my job to find it for you

By your logic, whenever I make an argument for Bane, and you ask me to source something, I can just provide the source: PoD, and that would be adequate. That's not how it works, I deal in specifics.

Except he was uber quick in Shatterpoint. A canon soruce.
And the clone Wars. Canon due to LFL and Lucas's declarations. And in Labyrinth of evil. Sorry

They're all canon, but that one contradicting aspect: Mace's speed isn't.

There aren't any retcons mentioned at all

Just because they're not mentioned, doesn't mean they don't exist. perhaps your precious Leland Chan missed something out.

No it doesn't. Stop it already. Youv'e provided no evidence but a huge logical fallacy

No I haven't.

And the EU are still points of canon. Lucas himself is the highest form of canon, since he can change the movies and put in what he wants with a few words.
He approves those parts of the EU. Deal with it

So by your logic, if Lucas approves some random comic, yet it contradicts the movies, it has the authority to overwrite the movies, correct? WRONG!!

Lucas also read and approved them as parts of his universe and that quote was long before the canon hierarchy was created

LMAO, you just defeated your own argument. Wouldn't that make the quote S Canon?

PRove what you preach. Apparently you know Lucas's mind without evidence. Instead of saying it could still be invalid, prove up with something not a fallacy.

You saying that I'm committing a logical fallacy doesn't make it so.

Leland Chee confirmed things on the novelization: Direct contradictions are N-canon.
Everything else is G

I know this..
The thing is, the case in question is a direct contradiction, which makes it N Canon.

No, it was not. It mentioned something of complete hyperbole and demonstrated the actions. Same applies to the rest of the descriptions of speed.
This is you pimping what you don't like and bringing down what threatens your platform. Stop it

Erm, actually it describes the entire manoeuvre, and the whole 'blur' and 'faster than their eyes could see' descriptions were not hyperbolic in one bit.

No, they don't. LFL has said they don't,

Again, not LC or any other LFL employee has the right to change the english language. And something doesn't have to be declared an infinity for it to contain contradictions.

Lucas's approval shows they don't.
Deal.
With.
It.

Again, just because GL approved it, it doesn't mean that nothing in it is subject to being retconned. Here's an example: the RotS novelisation.

Wrong! Sorry! We get a small description with no visual info and you suddeenly decide that because you like Bane more!

In most cases, detailed descriptions > visual info.

Maybe everyone else was slow,

they were trained force users... Sirak himself could move in blurs.

because Mace can land six punches before someone like Kar Vastor can blink and since we discuss the EU, everything else from the EU goes

Not when it contradicts the movies however, which is something you don't seem to get.

unless you want to admit Mace wins just because he exists in the continuity!

You've said this before, and it makes zero sense. Just because Nihilus doesn't appear in the movies, that doesn't make his existence in a time period way before the movies retconned in any way.

Caught in this paradox of yours, you have nowhere left to argue from: You accept the EU when arguing with EU characters, or you concede as LFL's canon policy itself is against you and you have no visual medium except of a book of hyperbole to measure Bane

LMAO, this makes zero sense.

Actually, they were 100 percent correct on Yoda.
And last I checked: Unsubstantiated hyperbole on PoD. Deal with it

Except it's not hyperbole.

And since no retcons occured...
Sorry

Yes they did, and it's been proven.

I think Lucas knows about that more than you

And I think Lucas is a moron who constantly contradicts himself and doesn't make sense, and I'm guessing he's too lazy to even read half of the books that are published.

He's not. Express, direct canon confirms it.

No it doesn't.

Just accept it and you'll be better off for it. You're in denial with terrible arguments that contradict LFL's very canon policy and Lucas's own decisions.

No they don't.

quit pretending you know best and just admit you're wrong on this issue.
The people who DECIDE THIS FOR A LIVING have decided you're wrong. They have retconned nothing. in fact, it's been referenced in later, approved, complete canon.

No they haven't, I'm right on this issue.

There's no argument here. You were fine with it until you realized it threatened your precious Bane.

That's a lie. In fact, I conceded my Mace > Yoda argument that I made when I first joined these forums based on it, and that was long before PoD was released.

lol, long ting posts.

It's somewhat imbecilic to try and judge Nihilus' apparent lightsabre skills (or lack thereof) when we don't have a single canon source depicting him fighting in combat aside from non-canon gameplay and also when we don't actually have any literary references to his lightsabre skills.

Honestly, Windu will most like go down hard. I can't see him resisting a drain from Nihilus; nor being able to resist someone who apparently keeps his ship intact by his will alone.

With Force Drain? Yeah, Mace'd go down.

Anything else? Nihilus is slaughtered

Lightsnake!

Nihilus is more powerful then Mace.

Originally posted by allfg
Again, just because GL approved it, it doesn't mean that nothing in it is subject to being retconned. Here's an example: the RotS novelisation.

So by your logic, if Lucas approves some random comic, yet it contradicts the movies, it has the authority to overwrite the movies, correct? [b]WRONG!!

LMAO, you just defeated your own argument. Wouldn't that make the quote S Canon?

You saying that I'm committing a logical fallacy doesn't make it so.

I know this..
The thing is, the case in question is a direct contradiction, which makes it N Canon.

Erm, actually it describes the entire manoeuvre, and the whole 'blur' and 'faster than their eyes could see' descriptions were not hyperbolic in one bit.

Again, not LC or any other LFL employee has the right to change the english language. And something doesn't have to be declared an infinity for it to contain contradictions.

Again, just because GL approved it, it doesn't mean that nothing in it is subject to being retconned. Here's an example: the RotS novelisation.

In most cases, detailed descriptions > visual info.

they were trained force users... Sirak himself could move in blurs.

Not when it contradicts the movies however, which is something you don't seem to get.

You've said this before, and it makes zero sense. Just because Nihilus doesn't appear in the movies, that doesn't make his existence in a time period way before the movies retconned in any way.

LMAO, this makes zero sense.

Except it's not hyperbole.

Yes they did, and it's been proven.

And I think Lucas is a moron who constantly contradicts himself and doesn't make sense, and I'm guessing he's too lazy to even read half of the books that are published.

No it doesn't.

No they don't.

No they haven't, I'm right on this issue.

And from Leland:

Tasty Taste
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Member Since: 05/00

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Date Posted: Feb 08, 2007 12:34 PM

Does the slower speed of the movies, for instance, contradict the faster speeds of the EU?
No.

That's a lie. In fact, I conceded my Mace > Yoda argument that I made when I first joined these forums based on it, and that was long before PoD was released. [/B]