Originally posted by Lightsnake
Legend!In the Force due to the drain, yes. I've said as much. However, in pure ability, Mace'd destroy him
Nihilus has shown more mastery in the Force. His TK abilities are too impressive to be ignored.
Nihilus can defeat Mace even in pure Force contest.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
The reverse is true as well. Mace is extremely powerful himself.
But unfortunately Nihilus is a Force Titan. His pure strength in the Force is incredible. He has more chance to win in pure Force contest.
Overall fight will go in Nihilus's favour in the end.
Originally posted by Lightsnake
Nihilus's main strength, however, focuses on his drain.
It is clear from these things that he was extremely powerful.
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD
Nihilus's strength was also focused on holding the entire Ravager Ship together. And despite this massive burden, he could still channel incredible power in to his Draining abilities or could perform other feats without any difficulty.It is clear from these things that he was extremely powerful.
and Mace dismantled a huge group of droids and a seismic tank on his own.
Same applies there
That's different. Elements go and Lucas approved them word by word.
Lightsnake, stop ignoring what I'm saying and respond directly. The fact is, the RotS novelisation is proof that just because Lucas approved some source, it doesn't make everything inside indisputably canon, even if it contradicts the movies.
And allowances are always made for out of story explanation. Lucas's explained plenty on the commentaries
No they're not. Lucas actually always tries to use an in-universe explanation to cover up his mistakes.
So...you have zero proof but your opinion. Good to know
Lightsnake, I've already provided proof, and your only defence was that Lucas approved the sources, and therefor, everything in them is absolute. This is not the case.
He decides the canon. Don't attack the sources when you lose out
1. Just because he doesn't elaborate on a contradiction, it doesn't mean there isn't one.
2. You've still failed to properly source anything LC has stated.
No. Your laziness isn't my problem
It's your laziness that is the issue, considering that by rules of debate, it is up to you, and not your opponent to provide proof for your claims.
And in terms of power and ability, the stuff in the EU happens and doesn't contradict anything
Yes it does, it contradicts the movies.
Proof please. Find me an exact, official statement
LMAO, does every argument that can possibly be made have to be backed up by some random LFL employee for you, lightsnake?
Again, if the movie characters could move at their EU speeds, they would have, because it would have been beneficial and possibly granted them a victory. There's no good reason for them to not have fought with those speeds if they really could have.
Yeah. You are.
"They don't do it in the movies, so they can't." is your argument. debunked
Again, if the movie characters could move at their EU speeds, they would have, because it would have been beneficial and possibly granted them a victory. There's no good reason for them to not have fought with those speeds if they really could have.
Prove it. Most of the sound is due to saber crashing and the music. Doesn't preclude a thing
If time had really been slowed down, the sound of sabers clashing would have been prolonged.
We've seen Nihilus fight. slow, isn't he?
Gameplay = N Canon.
Proof
Don't be ridiculous, proof for well known facts that your opponent clearly knows isn't required, you're just being purposely annoying and wasting my time.
Proof. Darth Krayt's ranting means little and considering most Sith keep their spirits alive by transferring their spirits...so?
Jedi padawans are taught how to amp up their speed with the force. Nihilus knows it, don't be ridiculous.
Unsupported assumptions and blatant lies.
Bullshit.
Yoda>Bane. If the movie speed is the top
Where's it said that the movie speed is the top?
and Yoda is declared the strongest, which is Lucas specified and designated,
Yoda being declared the strongest is 100% Yoda's PoV.
then PoD must conform.
Hold up, your posts seem to imply that you actually believe that in-universe evidence points to Bane being stronger, but these random quotes change that. LOL!
Sorry, you need to get over your Bane fascination
At least Bane's hot... Yoda's old, you into old aliens?
You can give the source easily enough. If you're lazy, it's your fault
Again, it's your proof to provide.
No it isn't. Different circumstance and it's still canon so ANY oibjection you raise is shot down
It's not canon, because it contradicts. And please explain how 'different circumstance' would have that drastic an effect on Mace's speed.
He has authority, you don't
Sorry.
Again, just because he doesn't elaborate on a contradiction, it doesn't mean there isn't one.
Stop being delusional
I know you are but what am I? 😛
If there's no contradiction-and some random's fan's opinion proves nothing- and Lucas goes over it word by word, then yeah, it's perfectly fine. If the actions just don't seem to gel, then there is a bridge formed and the actions become canon. If Anakin dies of a sudden heart attck in a direct contradiction, than no.
Give eorge some credit
It's not my fault you can't see what a direct contradiction is.
Quotes are C-canon. The only argument defeated is your own[/quoteIf the quote was made before canon heirachy was established, it is indeed S canon.
[quote]But continuous usage of the absence of proof fallacy does
Again, if the movie characters could move at their EU speeds, they would have, because it would have been beneficial and possibly granted them a victory. There's no good reason for them to not have fought with those speeds if they really could have.
Quit just labelling my argument as an absence of proof fallacy simply because you can't argue against it.
Liar. You just think there is.
LFL thinks differently. Can you not comprehend this?
LFL /= law. Can you comprehend that?
Yes they were. In fact, they contradict the movies which Lucas declared the Prime of the Jedi and the EU calls the fighting prime by your inane logic.
EU is EU and so it goes canonically. See? I can bash the sources too
Prime of the Jedi as in the most prosperous order, and in comparison to the OT.
Yes it does. For something to be invalid, the Holocron database needs to take care of it.
LFL and Leland decide what are contradictions and work them out. Since they saw no need to do so and let it stay C or G canon, then there is NO contradiction except in your mind
1. They may have missed something out by accident.
2. They don't dictate the definition of contradiction; their authority isn't that great.
Different again. Answered above.
Matt Stover: It's as close to sW fact as you can get (Regarding the powers)
End of story, there. Lucas approved it expressley
Brackets is 100% unsupported, and entirely your opinion.
Wrong. I interpret it as hyperbole and biased description from Bane's own POV.
See? I can do it, too
Yet you haven't supported your opinion.
Unsupported hyperbole from an untrained apprentice.
The BoD was weak according to Bane...powerwise weak
Unsupported hyperbole from an untrained apprentice.
Complete BS. It's supported, it's not hyperbole, and the apprentices were highly trained.
The BoD was weak according to Bane...powerwise weak[/quoe]Bane's standards were as high as they got at this point, he basically expected every single master to be as powerful as Revan; he believed that pretty much every proper sith would be as powerful as Revan.
[quote]It doesn't. You don't seem to get that. If I show you a quote from Leland finishin this, will you stop?
No, I won't stop, because you not sourcing things isn't the only problem you have in your argument.
But movies are the ultimate canon and everything else is secondary. So, the secondary doesn't exist to the primary sop the primaries win unless you acknowledge the secondary and all that happens in such, giving the EU feats their credit.
Thus...win!
Dude, if you're going to mock my logic, at least do it right.
Like everything you say
Sure thing Trousersnake.
Yes it is. The description shows it as such. sInce you can't prove a thing, just settle down
Prove it.
Now you're just being stupidly biased. I want an official statement from LFL and LEland Chee...the people who handel the retcons. Your opinion means nothing
Seeing as your opinion is dependant on what morons with power believe, I won't hesitate to put mine over your's.
Yet, he has the power and thus he determines the canon.
And the canon determined trumps you by far
Except every 'canon' thing you've offered has been inconclusive.
Learn to debate
You first, Mr Strawman.
Learn what you're talking about
You first, oh fan of irrelevant misdirection.
No, you're stupidly biased and you're lying:
Give me direct proof of a contradiction, supported by someone from LFL or Lucas himself, because Lucas himself approved the so-called contradictions word by word and even said it was exactly how he imagined on the ROTs commentaries.And from Leland:
Tasty Taste
Member Profile
Total Posts: 1230
Member Since: 05/00reply
Date Posted: Feb 08, 2007 12:34 PM
Does the slower speed of the movies, for instance, contradict the faster speeds of the EU?
No.
All this proves is that LC is a moron. Give me a chance to explain my reasoning to him, and I can guarantee that eh'll change his mind. In face, he mostly doesn't even give much thought into his responses.
No, quite frakly, you have an obsession with Bane.
We all know, get over it.
Yoda is the top Jedi by ROTs. Stover clarified exactly what he meant and went over it with Lucas.
Yoda's PoV.
PAlpatine is declared the strongest in Bane's entire order and has numerous other quotes and Dan Wallace's clarification.
Dirty talk shared by you and Mr Wallace in the bedroom isn't canon.
Originally posted by allfg
Lightsnake, stop ignoring what I'm saying and respond directly. The fact is, the RotS novelisation is proof that just because Lucas approved some source, it doesn't make everything inside indisputably canon, even if it contradicts the movies.
No they're not. Lucas actually always tries to use an in-universe explanation to cover up his mistakes.
Lightsnake, I've already provided proof, and your only defence was that Lucas approved the sources, and therefor, everything in them is absolute. This is not the case.
1. Just because he doesn't elaborate on a contradiction, it doesn't mean there isn't one.
2. You've still failed to properly source anything LC has stated.
It's your laziness that is the issue, considering that by rules of debate, it is up to you, and not your opponent to provide proof for your claims.
Yes it does, it contradicts the movies.
LMAO, does every argument that can possibly be made have to be backed up by some random LFL employee for you, lightsnake?
Again, if the movie characters could move at their EU speeds, they would have, because it would have been beneficial and possibly granted them a victory. There's no good reason for them to not have fought with those speeds if they really could have.
Again, if the movie characters could move at their EU speeds, they would have, because it would have been beneficial and possibly granted them a victory. There's no good reason for them to not have fought with those speeds if they really could have.
If time had really been slowed down, the sound of sabers clashing would have been prolonged.
Don't be ridiculous, proof for well known facts that your opponent clearly knows isn't required, you're just being purposely annoying and wasting my time.
Jedi padawans are taught how to amp up their speed with the force. Nihilus knows it, don't be ridiculous.
Bullshit.
Where's it said that the movie speed is the top?
Yoda being declared the strongest is 100% Yoda's PoV.
Hold up, your posts seem to imply that you actually believe that in-universe evidence points to Bane being stronger, but these random quotes change that. LOL!
At least Bane's hot... Yoda's old, you into old aliens?
Again, it's your proof to provide.
It's not canon, because it contradicts. And please explain how 'different circumstance' would have that drastic an effect on Mace's speed.
Does the slower speed of the movies, for instance, contradict the faster speeds of the EU?
No.
Take it up with him!
Again, just because he doesn't elaborate on a contradiction, it doesn't mean there isn't one.
It's not my fault you can't see what a direct contradiction is.
Again, if the movie characters could move at their EU speeds, they would have, because it would have been beneficial and possibly granted them a victory. There's no good reason for them to not have fought with those speeds if they really could have.
Quit just labelling my argument as an absence of proof fallacy simply because you can't argue against it.
LFL /= law. Can you comprehend that?
Prime of the Jedi as in the most prosperous order, and in comparison to the OT.
1. They may have missed something out by accident.
2. They don't dictate the definition of contradiction; their authority isn't that great.
Brackets is 100% unsupported, and entirely your opinion.
Yet you haven't supported your opinion.
Complete BS. It's supported, it's not hyperbole, and the apprentices were highly trained.
No, I won't stop, because you not sourcing things isn't the only problem you have in your argument.
Dude, if you're going to mock my logic, at least do it right.
Sure thing Trousersnake.
Prove it.
Seeing as your opinion is dependant on what morons with power believe, I won't hesitate to put mine over your's.
Except every 'canon' thing you've offered has been inconclusive.
You first, Mr Strawman.
You first, oh fan of irrelevant misdirection.
All this proves is that LC is a moron. Give me a chance to explain my reasoning to him, and I can guarantee that eh'll change his mind. In face, he mostly doesn't even give much thought into his responses.
We all know, get over it.
Yoda's PoV.
Dirty talk shared by you and Mr Wallace in the bedroom isn't canon.
Are insults your only way of fighting the inevitable?
He didn't just approve it:
He went over it line by line.
That's a lie. If that was so, there would be no contradictions present. Your own quote proves you wrong in fact:
"MS: Not tough so much as exceedingly detailed, though I suspect he would have been very tough indeed if I hadn't been quite so scrupulously faithful to the spirit of his story. I mean, he literally went over it word-by-word, even to the point of altering descriptives to adjust the characters' inflections."
Non-contradictories are G-canon
You continuously ignore my argument. Please stop. Your argument against there being contradictions is that Lucas approved the source. I've shown the flaws inside this reasoning, now please admit that you're wrong, and quit bringing it up again and again.
Riiiight...which's why he did the opposite in the commentaries
Quote?
All the proof I need. they're acknowledged as pure G-canon
Lightsnake, quit being ridiculous. being approved by Lucas doesn't give the source immunity from being retconned.
Doesn't mean there is one. I'm afraid there's nothing
I've already explained how there is one, and your only argument against that was that LC didn't acknowledge it. Again, I prove how your reasoning fails, and again, you try to Strawman your way out of it.
Says you. The head of the canon department disagrees
Again:
1. He doesn't put that much thought into his responses, they're hardly absolute.
2. He may have misunderstood your question.
3. Being the head of the canon department doesn't give him the authority to change the English Language.
YOu're making statements about canon and retcons...the things LFL officials can do and only them
No. I'm using basic knowledge of what a contradiction is, and working under the very canon policy that LC set.
Nai's dealt with this at EoD.
He didn't reply actually.
Your assumptions =/= proof
Refute my reasoning, or concede.
If the sabers move at the fast speed, the sound would be unmuted. You don't need the sound to correspond. there's all the explanation you need
No. The sound would have to correspond. You can also view the speed of exterior events, and judge by that, too.
Ahhh. More BS and half-truths
Bullshit.
Quantify his speed. can he land six blows in under a blink of an eye?
Given his strength in and mastery of the force, most likely. And Mace can't do that anyway, point mooted.
The fighting prime of the Jedi, remember that?
Only applied to the movies; it was the PT in comparison to the OT, and it was purely in respect to choreography.
And if the EU speeds go, all the EU speeds go
this makes zero sense.
Nope. It's narrative...narrative, character thoughts and scenes of the sort are 100 percent canon.
You contradict yourself. You say 'Nope' to what I'm saying, and then say the same thing. I wasn't arguing the canonicity, Lightsnake, I was saying that given that it's Yoda's PoV, and given that Yoda isn't infallible, his PoV is subject to being wrong like Darth Subjekt.
And apparently, according to TV and Stover, Lucas shares the opinion. Huh
Link?
Actually, I'm humoring you. In-universe things point to Bane being weaker.
Never saw him destroy an army single handedly
Funny, never saw Yoda pull a moon out of orbit. What I did see was him struggle with lifting a tiny piller.
Yeah, ok, I could reply to the rest of this, but the argument's only going to get bigger and bigger, so we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Originally posted by allfg
That's a lie. If that was so, there would be no contradictions present. Your own quote proves you wrong in fact:"MS: Not tough so much as exceedingly detailed, though I suspect he would have been very tough indeed if I hadn't been quite so scrupulously faithful to the spirit of his story. I mean, he [b]literally
went over it word-by-word, even to the point of altering descriptives to adjust the characters' inflections."
You continuously ignore my argument. Please stop. Your argument against there being contradictions is that Lucas approved the source. I've shown the flaws inside this reasoning, now please admit that you're wrong, and quit bringing it up again and again.
Quote?
Lightsnake, quit being ridiculous. being approved by Lucas doesn't give the source immunity from being retconned.
I've already explained how there is one, and your only argument against that was that LC didn't acknowledge it. Again, I prove how your reasoning fails, and again, you try to Strawman your way out of it.
Again:1. He doesn't put that much thought into his responses, they're hardly absolute.
2. He may have misunderstood your question.
3. Being the head of the canon department doesn't give him the authority to change the English Language.
No. I'm using basic knowledge of what a contradiction is, and working under the very canon policy that LC set.
He didn't reply actually.
Refute my reasoning, or concede.
No. The sound would have to correspond. You can also view the speed of exterior events, and judge by that, too.
Bullshit.
Given his strength in and mastery of the force, most likely. And Mace can't do that anyway, point mooted.
Only applied to the movies; it was the PT in comparison to the OT, and it was purely in respect to choreography.
this makes zero sense.
You contradict yourself. You say 'Nope' to what I'm saying, and then say the same thing. I wasn't arguing the canonicity, Lightsnake, I was saying that given that it's Yoda's PoV, and given that Yoda isn't infallible, his PoV is subject to being wrong like Darth Subjekt.
Link?
Funny, never saw Yoda pull a moon out of orbit. What I did see was him struggle with lifting a tiny piller.
Yeah, ok, I could reply to the rest of this, but the argument's only going to get bigger and bigger, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. [/B]
You're wrong