Poll
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29%
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26%
Benny Arnold 馃槢
Since not only is he a famous traitor, but the last battle he was in as a revolutionary he actually kept us from losing... by disobeying orders repeatedly, thankfully those issued by an incompetent commander and managed to save the day. It was just getting punished for it that irked him enough to make him betray us D:
Ptolemy Soter, Perdiccas, Lysimachus, Antigonus, Cassander and Seleucus, Alexander's most trusted generals, some or maybe even all of whom almost certainly had a role in his death.
The commonly accepted story is that he was poisoned by those closest to him. While it can never be proved who was or wasn't involved, they all stood to gain a lot, and it's highly unlikely that those actively involved would've been able to keep their plans secret from the rest, therefore they're almost certainly all responsible to some degree.
Originally posted by Lord Coal
Ptolemy Soter, Perdiccas, Lysimachus, Antigonus, Cassander and Seleucus, Alexander's most trusted generals, some or maybe even all of whom almost certainly had a role in his death.The commonly accepted story is that he was poisoned by those closest to him. While it can never be proved who was or wasn't involved, they all stood to gain a lot, and it's highly unlikely that those actively involved would've been able to keep their plans secret from the rest, therefore they're almost certainly all responsible to some degree.
Very good! That's a great contribution to the thread. 馃檪
Originally posted by WrathfulDwarf
Very good! That's a great contribution to the thread. 馃檪
Why, thank you good sir.
I think what makes the betrayal of Alexander's generals even more despicable was that their collective motive was pure greed. All of them put together couldn't have been the leader history remembers Alexander as being, so they were serving only their own purposes.
At least Marcus Junius Brutus had a respectable motive.
TBH I'm shocked that Ptolemy I Soter isn't on the poll but a lots of nobodies are. Is there no justice in the world
Originally posted by Lord Coal
Who the fvck's Benedict Arnold?Roger Casement?
William Joyce?
Otto Ville Kuusinen?
Alcibiades?
and Philippe Petain?
Wikipedia is your friend... It has all the answers you need and more, which makes me wonder why the hell Otto Ville Kuusinen is on the list. Never heard of him before today and when reading up I must say didn't sound like a traitor to me, just somebody who lost a civil war and fled to a neighboring country...
Anyways as for the greatest traitor my vote goes to Brutus.
Because we know he was a traitor, we know he helped kill and plan Caesar, and this isn't disputed. Unlike with Judas where it is very possible that he was actually ordered to kill Jesus instead of doing it because he wanted to. Or Alexander his generals, where we simply have no idea if they really had anything to do with his death in the first place.
I'd vote for Alcibiades. That little turd double crossed everyone at least once or twice all for purely selfish reasons. That being said, he really must have had the gift for gab.
Originally posted by Lord Coal
I think what makes the betrayal of Alexander's generals even more despicable was that their collective motive was pure greed. All of them put together couldn't have been the leader history remembers Alexander as being, so they were serving only their own purposes.
I see your point, but being as history is written by imperfect humans, one also has to wonder if their motivations was not one born out of malice, hurt feelings or self preservation.
Alexander often acted irrationally. He killed the most loyal soldier to Macedonia and one of his most trusted friends (cleitus the black) out of rage. He had systematically dismissed the Macedonia army and was replacing them with persian recruits. More and more persian officers were making their way up the ranks replacing Macedonian officers. The Macedonian soldiers were at their wits end ofter a long campaign which still had no end in site.
I don't think that Alexander's death is a clear cut issue. No one knows really who killed him. So why blame all his generals or cast aspersions to what their motivations were?
I see your point. Alexander was certainly unpredictable, and understandably his generals my well have been worried for their respective futures, but this doesn't automatically justify their course of actions.
Remember there were a number of previous attempts on Alexander's life, and although there is no clear cut evidence to say for certain sure how, or why, Alexander died, his generals, who were supposedly his closest friends, didn't help the situation.
It's highly probable that Ptolemy was Alexander's half brother, and most of the others had grown up with, or at least around, him, and were, as I say, supposedly his closest friends. This was not just a betrayal of a king, a talented general and the son of a God (People back then believed that kind of shit), it was the betrayal of a close friend and, for Ptolemy, a brother.
It didn't stop there. Remember their squabbling? If they'd sat down and decided who they were going to follow as Alexander's successor, or allowed Alexander's unborn son to succeed (With the help of a regent, for obvious reasons), then over a decade of hard work might not have been undone.
They didn't just betray him, but his memory, his son, his empire, their Macedon, their deities, and ultimately themselves....
Originally posted by Lord Coal
I see your point. Alexander was certainly unpredictable, and understandably his generals my well have been worried for their respective futures, but this doesn't automatically justify their course of actions.Remember there were a number of previous attempts on Alexander's life, and although there is no clear cut evidence to say for certain sure how, or why, Alexander died, his generals, who were supposedly his closest friends, didn't help the situation.
It's highly probable that Ptolemy was Alexander's half brother, and most of the others had grown up with, or at least around, him, and were, as I say, supposedly his closest friends. This was not just a betrayal of a king, a talented general and the son of a God (People back then believed that kind of shit), it was the betrayal of a close friend and, for Ptolemy, a brother.
It didn't stop there. Remember their squabbling? If they'd sat down and decided who they were going to follow as Alexander's successor, or allowed Alexander's unborn son to succeed (With the help of a regent, for obvious reasons), then over a decade of hard work might not have been undone.
They didn't just betray him, but his memory, his son, his empire, their Macedon, their deities, and ultimately themselves....
That is if they killed him, which I have still never seen evidence off. The events leading up to Alexander his death are unclear. He could have just as easily died a natural death...
Also the squabbling was a natural event. Alexander had no clear heir for as far as I can remember and a son that wasn't born would surely not be fit to rule, besides who would be regent? That alone could easily lead to a huge ass war...