Originally posted by Robtard
If the Eve story is true, then it isn't really her fault either, God is to blame, for being a total ass.
whether or not it was god's divine plan is entirely irrelevant. the main question is WHY did eve do what she did? WHY did judas do what he did? let's dive into THEIR minds, not god's. what were their MOTIVES? what were their INTENTIONS?
if they both knew that their actions would bring about a prophecy and they committed the acts to fulfill that prophecy, it would be safe to say that they were consciously acting in the name of a higher power and making a personal sacrifice.
however, if eve ate the apple out of curiosity and judas sold jesus off in exchange for a payment without either of them having knowledge of the prophecy or wanting to fulfilling it, they were acting selfishly. god may have wanted them to commit such acts and designed them to do so, but in the minds of eve and judas, god's plans were not a factor in the MOTIVES and INTENTIONS behind their actions. not in this scenario, anyway.
but, going back to your claim… even if its not eve’s and juda’s fault at all, what happened to free will? i was under the impression that god granted man free will.
Originally posted by Fallen
whether or not it was god's divine plan is entirely irrelevant. the main question is WHY did eve do what she did? WHY did judas do what he did? let's dive into THEIR minds, not god's. what were their MOTIVES? what were their INTENTIONS?if they both knew that their actions would bring about a prophecy and they committed the acts to fulfill that prophecy, it would be safe to say that they were consciously acting in the name of a higher power and making a personal sacrifice.
however, if eve ate the apple out of curiosity and judas sold jesus off in exchange for a payment without either of them having knowledge of the prophecy or wanting to fulfilling it, they were acting selfishly. god may have wanted them to commit such acts and designed them to do so, but in the minds of eve and judas, god's plans were not a factor in the MOTIVES and INTENTIONS behind their actions. not in this scenario, anyway.
but, going back to your claim… even if its not eve’s and juda’s fault at all, what happened to free will? i was under the impression that god granted man free will.
From a biblical standpoint, Eve ate the apple because she was tricked by the snake/Devil, though knowing she was disobeying God and Judas did it for the silver, very Jewish of him.
The point with Judas though, Jesus had to die for our sins and Judas was the one to do it, despite it being done out of greed, it had to be done. Judas in a sense, was trapped by prophecy to betray Jesus and set in motion the salvation of mankind. Remember, Jesus knew Judas would betray him, he claimed there was a betrayer among them during the last supper, yet he let the motions that lead to his death run free, because it had to happen.
Eve, she disobeyed, but if God being omnipotent and omniscient as God is supposed to be, God would have known long before the creation of Eve, the Tree of Knowledge etc. etc. etc., that Eve would disobey and would eat from the tree. So she was essentially created to disobey, God would have known this, so her freewill, really isn't freewill.
Answer me this, if you create a machine to make buttons, and it does exactly what it was made to do, does it have free will?
so if eve and judas never had a choice, what does it say about the rest of us?
well, no, but it has no consciousness. they virtually have no personality or anything that would give it the ability to reason for itself. now, if you program the machine to have a personality and the ability to reason, that's when it begins to have a life of its own.
i personally don't think life is pre-destined or that anyone is destined to do anything. if jesus did exist and he was the son of god, i think god created jesus for a purpose, but i still maintain that it was jesus's decision to follow through or not. i say the same for eve and judas.
That's ridiculous.
God would have created Jesus to specifically carry out a purpose, not to see if he would, but to actually do it.
If anything, that was the one part of the plan that would be pre-destined. If God's experiment was to discover anything, it'd be to see how the world reacts to all of it.
If he created Jesus for a purpose, then that's what the purpose was, and he was always going to do it. God didn't create everyone else, just have a few people the ability of creation.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
That's ridiculous.God would have created Jesus to specifically carry out a purpose, not to see if he would, but to actually do it.
If anything, that was the one part of the plan that would be pre-destined. If God's experiment was to discover anything, it'd be to see how the world reacts to all of it.
-AC
let me rephrase that, god may have created jesus with a certain intention, but how do we know that god didn't bestow jesus with the ability to decide on his own?
i just don't believe in destiny or prophecies.
[i]
If he created Jesus for a purpose, then that's what the purpose was, and he was always going to do it. God didn't create everyone else, just have a few people the ability of creation.
[/B]
i don't quite understand that last part, the last sentence in particular.
Originally posted by Fallen
so if eve and judas never had a choice, what does it say about the rest of us?well, no, but it has no consciousness. they virtually have no personality or anything that would give it the ability to reason for itself. now, if you program the machine to have a personality and the ability to reason, that's when it begins to have a life of its own.
i personally don't think life is pre-destined or that anyone is destined to do anything. if jesus did exist and he was the son of god, i think god created jesus for a purpose, but i still maintain that it was jesus's decision to follow through or not. i say the same for eve and judas.
Judas could have possibly have had free will, though Jesus dieing for all of us had to happen, the betrayal, the coming of the Messiah etc. etc. etc. is all prophecy, so if not Judas, someone else would have had to betray Jesus, though Jesus knowing Judas was the betrayer before it happened, pretty much leads one to believe it was Judas' destiny, which was my original point. Dude got a raw deal.
Jesus is God and God is Jesus, according to Christian superstition, Jesus knew his purpose from the get go and set about to die to save everyone. There was no other possible course.
Eve on the other-hand, was created directly by God (the Adam's rib bit) and God would have known she was to disobey before her creation, as God is without limits. So she was created to disobey and wouldn't have had freewill.
Edit: I personally don't take the Bible at face value, I believe the stories are just stories used as a teaching instrument and that a man named Jesus did exist, but I don't think he was God incarnate and I also question what is said about him, as the NT was written long after his death. But we're debating from a Christian point of view that (what if) the Bible is indeed true.
okay, so on the assumption that jesus and judas had no choice, what about everyone else involved? there were definitely more than just two people who brought about this prophecy. there’s all those angry jews who wanted to crucify jesus, jesus’s disciples, jesus’s followers, jesus’s followers who later turned their backs on him, the people jesus spoke with and came in contact with… all those lives he touched and influenced. the list is endless. they all played a part, all of whose actions and timing of actions culminated to jesus dying for everyone’s sins. doesn’t their involvement imply that they were destined to do what they did? after all, someone had to have wanted jesus’s death. in fact, there were many. and jesus had to have become so infamous for so many people to pay attention and want him dead, which encompasses the roles of many others. therefore, that would imply that the roles of others were strategically designed and placed to bring about this prophecy, including those who simply witnessed the events. furthermore, if jesus was to go down in history for his sacrifice and was to have such an impact, there’s the roles of the lives of the people who later spread christianity, the ones who accepted it, questioned it, argued against it, abused it. it has become this chain reaction that has created a ripple throughout the history of time that has eventually led to this day and age, the present. and of course, time is continuous so there’s the future that needs to be taken into account.
does anyone see where this is going?
where does this pre-destined thing end? does it? or is it possible that none of us have free will? if so, what’s the point?
for the love of jesus f ucking Christ, what’s the god damn sh it-faced f ucking point?!
yeah…
….I have this tendency to over analyze. ermm
b itch.
i forgot one.
oh wait… c unt.
awww, damn, there’s ass.
ass.
i-i have to go study now.