Jack, Elizabeth, the compass, and all those quotes....

"Why, if she was feeling less for Will, would she have risked the entire ship and crew, plus her own life, to let him free himself? If she was feeling such a deep and total connection to Jack, why would she leave him behind to die?"-------Surreal

That's the thing. You've hit the nail on the head there on why this is a topic of debate at all. This is where I kind of separate from some J/Eers who say "Jack and Liz are in love by the end of DMC." To me, only half of that is true. I would never seriously argue Liz has made the conscious choice to drop Will for Jack by the end of the movie. She's too protective of Will, too disillusioned with pirates at this moment to drop him for a pirate. I think it's the decision she made to leave Jack there that will be the catalyst as far as any feelings she has for Jack at this point developing.

^^^ word. absence makes the heart grow fonder.

what gets me is when Jack looks in her eyes he can tell her heart is the same as his if she supposably doesn't love him. She must have some feeling for him, i really doubt she did it because she wanted to just save herself and Will and the crew, there has to more than just lust in their kiss.

If absence makes the heart grow fonder, Will and Elizabeth ought to be head over heals, no-doubt-about-it in love, right? 😛

Ok, I listened to the commentary, and a few things really struck me. First of all, one of the things they said when Elizabeth first looks at the compass was this explanation that the compass points to what you want, not your heart's desire, and that what you want is changeable...and that lust is in fact changeable. One of the writers also mentioned that he felt that the compass should only have wavered slightly, but then gone back to pointing at the chest.

Another time, they discuss how Elizabeth and Will work together well, and that it defines their relationship so well. Also, of interest to me, is that one of the writers notes that people don't seem to pick up on that, when he seems to feel it is quite obvious.

Also I noticed that they mention that Elizabeth loves Will, and they've stated twice in the commentary that the kiss is because Will's life is at stake. Another thing I noticed was that they mention that they liked the idea of what the writer said about Elizabeth slaking her lust and drowning her guilt, but they quickly point out that "what doesn't get debated much is how much Elizabeth's...how much she weighed Will's life into what she does,", and that "The one way we could get a kiss between these two characters and have it be legitimate and true to the characters was to have Will's life in the balance." *** Note that those are not exact quotes. My mom was watching it with me and would have had fits if I'd tried to write anything down. 😛

So what else can we pull from the commentary? And yes, I know my comments are pro Willabeth, but someone's gotta do it. 😉

The writers do say Elizabeth has some feelings for Jack...what I find interesting is that they refer to it at least twice in the commentary as lust, and I think they discuss Elizabeth's lust in at least one post in Wordplayer. Elizabeth has "lust", Jack has a "desire", but do either of those things actually mean that Jack and Elizabeth have what it takes to make a relationship work?

Thoughts?

"Another time, they discuss how Elizabeth and Will work together well, and that it defines their relationship so well. Also, of interest to me, is that one of the writers notes that people don't seem to pick up on that, when he seems to feel it is quite obvious."----Surreal

I noticed that part too. Since it's an action series and it has such close parallels to Star Wars, it all comes down to group dynamics of a trio. Most everyone agrees Luke and Han work well together, just as Will and Jack do. Very few discussions actually start out saying how well Luke and Leia work together (forget for the moment they are brother and sister. That doesn't matter here.) And I think it just has to do with the amount of time spent together. In DMC, Liz spends far more time with Jack than she does with Will. The same is true for Will. He in turn spends more time with Jack than Liz. While as a trio they are very strong, the three of them aren't together all that much.

Consider COTBP. Will and Liz do work well together near the end when she goes back for him. They help Jack kill Barbossa and save his life at the end. Kudos to them. But, they did not spend that much time together. Will and Jack spent the most time together so everyone talks about how well THEY worked together. Throw in the fact that the writers made sure Jack and Liz got an 8-minutes-or-so scene together when I don't think she got that much with Will total. It's a problem that naturally comes with stories about rescuing each other and going on complex adventures. Your characters aren't going to all be together that often and simple things like group dynamics can easily be overlooked.

okay....let's say you are right Surreal....Elizabeth has no feelings for Jack..she left him to die because she is so in love with Will, she could care less if he lives or dies...dying being the preferable thing since she just left him for dead...

if that's the case..than Elizabeth is nothing but a cold hearted XXXXX..and it makes me hope she gets what's hers in AWE...because Jack Sparrow is the main character in this trilogy..and she has just used him...knowing that he was vunerable to her.....you know what if you are right...then I hope Jack gets his revenge in AWE...trade her to Sao, trade her to Beckett..who cares...let her marry boring ol' Will Turner....

Just let Jack Sparrow have the last laugh...no matter what that last laught may entale.....all that matters is Jack Sparrow is happy and free..

So...why did Ted and Terry want to throw all these supposed clues to throw us off the scent of a Will/Elizabeth love story...why show us how it could be between Liz and jack and then go back to Will...I just don't get it...I guess I do...here we are 8 months later still debating and talking about this movie.. they made big bucks off of all the Sparrabethers who kept going back to see it for all those great moments....fans have spent countless hours making youtube videos about jack and liz...and they could end it W/E and still they will make their money...

Am I making any sense...I guess the last laugh is on all of us that are in love with Sparrabeth...for getting our hopes up ....and then going back to same old same old....Oh well....I'm sure it will be agreat movie no matter what....Like you say Surreal, this isn't a romance movie ...it's a Pirate's movie...Maybe I should do like LovelyOne and just leave all of this behind me and get on with my life...

hey...I admit it...I saw that part where ted and terry talk about the connection between Will and Liz and how people overlook that part...I guess I'm one of those...but that's just one small moment compared to the countless clues to Jack and LIz...oh well..go figure...

Will and Elizabeth are the loves in the story...and good ol' Jack Sparrow is just there to add comic relief.....the trickster...

I guess I need to remind myself...the Pirates of the Caribbean is the story of Elizabeth Swann and William Turner and their adventures with Captain Jack Sparrow...goodbye..

oh yawn. i am sick of arguing against Will/Liz based on writers or spoilers or whatnot. they just dont do it for me. thats pretty much the gist of my argument.

yes...yawn....I am tired of aruging too...I just want to enjoy the movie...

okay...i was very tired last night...and re-reading my posts from last night...I apologize...for sounding a bit harsh....

this is my final arguement on the matter..despite clues, symbolisms and regardless of what t and t say or do:

Will and Liz suck...they have zero chemistry and they are boring....
I don't know why Liz chose to kill Jack to save Will....and I pretty much don't care anymore...
All I know is that the kiss was hot..one of the best on-screen ones I've ever seen....and especially the Almost Kiss before she decides to turn and leave...
Not so sure if Liz is strong or weak....i'm banking on she is a confused young lady who acting on selfish impulse without thinking of the consequences....
Jack and Elizabeth have great chemistry...t and t have already shown us that Jack wants Elizabeth..
They've shown us and hinted to us that Elizabeth is just like Jack....
so, whatever happens...if it ends W/E...you have to wonder just what t and t was trying to accomplish with all the clues, etc...a bump in the road? Bah...that's rubbish....
Just give me lots of jack sparrow in AWE and I will be a happy camper, all shipping aside....If liz wants to be with all whelp Will..let her go...besides Johnny has said that keeping clear of Elizabeth is just better for Jack's health...

^^^ ha...rereading that and thinking about what Johnny said that staying clear of her is just better for his health...is really quite funny...think about it....whenever she's around he always ends up having to fight for his life..or he gets duped by her...she gets him drunk on rum, makes him think he's going to get lucky and then leaves him cold and lonely with a great hangover.....then she kisses him, uses her womanly wiles to trick him..to chain him to a mast so that he can face the kraken..ultimately his death, for there can be no escape....So, yeah, staying away from her would be in Jack's best interest....

LOL yeah that probably is true! And yes! I want Jack to have the last laugh too! I want him to be the winner. At this point that's all I ask of T&T. That and at least some JE scenes.

Not trying to sound smarty pants but actually I DID notice that comunication beween WE!

Not because I'm intreseted in their relationship or studied them carefully (which I've started to do recenetly..as they say "keep ur friends close and ur enemies closer" so I thought it was worth knowing as much about WE I do about JE and at least UNDERSTAND why ppl are a fan of the paring) but because at first I was confused.

He just hands her the gun and without a moment of hesitation she says: "as soon as ur clear!" It's like they read eachother's mind and as they lift the barrels we start getting a veague idea of what their doing.

As T&T said kinda like Jaws. U don't know what's happening but u know their doing SOMETHING.

But can I just point something out? right now saying this I've put all of my JE prejiduice aside and I'm examining them as a trio. few ppl notice that connection between WE but even fewer ppl notice the communication between the three of them.

It's a big deal that Jack knows the INSTANT he comes back what W&E are doing. I know being as bright as he is it was easy to figure out but they have the same state of mind...remember WE are "daft like Jack" so I think that whole plan DOES show what WE have together but it also does show how good they are as a trio.

I agree that the three of them together are practically unstoppable. They're all intelligent, and where one might have a weakness the other two more than make up for it. I enjoy the three of them working together far more than I enjoy any 'shipping' aspect of the films.

I'm actually not trying to "win" an argument here, but I am attempting to generate some real discussion on not just J/E and OMG!they're soooo hot!! As a fan of the movies, I find it discouraging that people focus only on that one aspect of the film, when there are other relationships and issues that can be just as fun and fulfilling to discuss as J/E.

Even if Will and Elizabeth don't end up together, I think it is vitally important for people to take a moment to really look at their relationship and see how important it has been to Elizabeth's development as a character, as well as Jack's, and to see how Elizabeth and Jack have both played a developing role in Will's character.

Do you see what I'm trying to say? The intereaction of all three of these characters is more important to the entire film trilogy itself, and not just to "who gets the girl".

So...if Jack and Elizabeth did end up together, what would be a fitting end for Will? And if we could please avoid sentences such as "Will is a whelp and deserves a horrible painful death," I would greatly appreciate it. 😄

J/E OMG they're SO HOTT!!!!!

hahaha couldnt resist. im sorry, im a party pooper who has very little interest in discussion anymore. it was fun for a while, but i am like a little kid who has been kept waiting too long for dinner. boo. Disney, give us the trailor or go back to California. Lovethemtigers, I'm with you all the way. Who cares if Liz/Will are engaged, can read each other's minds about how to kill sea monsters (oh good, they can go on fishing expeditions together... :roll🙂, or will eventually (sadly) end up together. Nothing can compare to the drama and passion of that kiss of death, or the wit and wonder of the fun of two clever people tricking and battling each other across the caribbean. So whatever. This isn't romeo and juliet, this isn't the princess bride, etc. if it is supposed to be, then i missed something back when they landed at Tortuga and met the wenches. PIRATES. It'd be like Gangs of New York... suddenly the 5 points bursts into flowers and the two arch enemies frolick about and put aside their differences, whilst Jenny becomes prim and proper and stops sleeping around in order to marry the dude (Leo's friend) who got stabbed. They wouldn't call it gangs of new york anymore, they'd call it "the beautiful story of how the gangs of new york put aside their true nature in the name of love"... touching, but no longer gangs of new york.

im just rambling now. what im saying is, if they are serious about this being a pirate film, then lizzie ought to end up captain lizzie, one of the most feared pirates in the caribbean, who keeps men as she chooses 😉 but belongs to no one.

Hazah! That's how it needs to end, Kate! No shipping whatsoever but all three of them get their own ships and sail off and have adventures together. Nobody could stop the armada that is Captain Jack, Captain Will, and Captain Liz. I do wish the three of them were together more often. I think the only times all three of them are together are the last 30 minutes or so of COTBP and close to the end of DMC. Go figure.

OMG! Kate!! You're here!!! *grabs kate and doesn't let go*

ok, this debate of the kiss either it was just to save will or to slake her lust--whatever. There is no point in arguing. Its like arguing if its macaroni and cheese or cheese and macaroni.

And what if Will ends up alone--ok I don't mean that. Will doesnt have to end up with a partner. He has his father. He always wanted to be with his father. And the touch of destiny that Tia saw was with ONLY WILL. Not with Liz and Will.

But seriously, its all yawn. I mean, this is pirates of the caribbean!! **** the spoilers *chews her orbit* Who cares.

Im just bablling lool

^^^I know...they always show their pictures together..but yet you rarely have all three of them together in one scene...it's either Jack and will...or Jack and Liz....and on a rare occasion...Will and Liz (even though they are the hot couple who have so much connection they know exactly what the other is thinking...they know exactly when to fire a shot to kill a sea monster)....LOL

okay..I won't talk any more..I'll be a good POTC fan and keep my lips zipped....

YAYAYAY!!!! you both are lovely. 🙂 welcome to the newest and most fun ship of the caribbean-- the three pirates sailing about having adventures (and if Lizzie finds her way onto the Black Pearl in the dead of night, so be it) whilst the fans drink rum and burn the spoilers and the posters- oh wait, there arent posters yet. LOL.

ooo! i like that ship! 😱

Ok you know what. We need to annalyze like our own way. Forget the spoilers, forget the comments for now. God gave us a brain, why don't we use it?!

Another thing. You know, I still stand on my beliefs on what is going to happen. For what I have seen with my own eyes. But besides that, I have complete faith. I know this movie will definitely be the greatest and always will be cherised for all times.

Sure, I mean, Jack and Liz--wow! I just love them together. But, that doesnt make POTC. What makes potc is the great cast, characters, directors, writers--everything that made this movie possible!

It has woken the pirate in all of us. They made us blieve in pirates again!! And I think this is what all is about...