Jack, Elizabeth, the compass, and all those quotes....

A kiss was the best weapon against him.
But it's the leaning in for a second one that shoots that theory down.

Correct! The best weapon against him was a kiss. A kiss that was building for a looong time. Probably since COTBP. She says: ''it's after you, not the ship..not us! this is the only way, dont you see?'' The kraken/davy are after Jack, not the crew nor the ship. But, as willo was saying, she lean for another almost kiss. Then she says: "im not sorry." I find this quiet funny. Considering that in COTBP when Jack was making his exit by the end of the movie, he told Elizabeth: "it would've never worked between us, darling. Im sorry"

your rite!!!!interesting....

Forget about "why the kiss?"

Its "why she leaned for another, almost kiss?"

She was pratically shaking. I mean, listen and look closely. She was quivering--shivering and she looked as if she was out of breath. She knows what she was doing was "on a selfish impulse". Sound familiar..anyone?

They both practically ended what each of them said they would do. Jack: "to become a good man" and Liz: "act on a selfish impulse"--OH! Lets not forget the part of "you wont be able to resist"<<That's what made her lean for that kiss again...

your so smart!!!

Mmm, let's hope she won't be able to resist something else.

Hopefully sex. Come on, Disney! Give us some nice good ol' Disney style sex. lol kidding. My head is a little stuck in the gutter.

But seriously, folks. There is alot going on in the curiosity scene. Jack mentions on how sooner or later she will come to his side "i know it."

Elizabeth: "...to do the right thing....a good man."
Jack IS a good man. Despite his selfish ways, I don't think he is all that selfish. By the end of DMC he could proove that he did the right thing in going back to the pearl and he indeed prooved to be a good man in rescuing Elizabeth.

Jack: "..to act on a selfish impulse." That kiss was on a selfish impulse...
"...You won't be able to resist." She leaned for another kiss...
"...You will come over to my side, I know it." She hasn't came all the way yet. But for what I have seen from Lizzie, she's getting there.

willofthewisp,you mean i shouldn´t give too much tittles after one sentence and that i should more seperate sentences... or?sorry but i am not english or american i have learned english only for 3years so i know i don´t know much...please forgive me my mistakes,girls 🙂 i am trying to write everything right but,you know,i write it wrong quite often...🙂

waw...now i really don´t know how will they do the end...it´s totally questioning..so pics,leaked scripts,spoilers-everything may be untrue.Now we can follow probably only our instinct 😄 and i totally agree with you all..Well now we have not complete thing with "another almost kiss" i think she MUST did feel something because if she didn´t feel anything,she would run away after the kiss and she also did caress his hand but if she wanted only to chain him up would she caress his hand and lean for another kiss???And btw terry and ted in the commentary said "..she has to admit that she did feel something and that she has the desire as well...but then she holds back" or something like that i don´t know now how they exactly said it...perhaps it means something...

I didn't mean to criticize your English. It's a lot better than my Arabic and Spanish. I forget sometimes message boards are international. More separate sentences would make it easier for other people to read, though. And I do think we all agree that the curiosity scene has some definite foreshadowing.

Also what about the shakles. Jack shakles Elizabeth in COTBP and Elizabeth shakles Jack at the end of DMC. I think this means freedom they are each others freedom.

okay...I see what you mean Willo about not focusing on the "a woman" line that Jack answeres in Tia's cabin...but the only reason I brought that up a while back was because T and T are the ones that pointed it out in their DMC commentary...they said it was to clue the audience onto the fact that Jack himself is vexed by a woman...and throughout the movie we are given the clues to let us know just who that woman is...Elizabeth....

The Kiss - yes, very interesting points. I've always interpreted the line "this is the only way, don't you see" to justify the "drowning her guilt" thing....with Jack alive he's a temptation, with Jack dead..she can stay faithful to Will...but at the same time she is acting on selfish impulse to save the live of someone she loves (will) and the rest of the crew....doing a pirate act for an honorable result..much like Jack...

She does in fact "come over to my side"...in Jack's POV

and she acts on selfish impulse....she wants to know what it feels like...she longs for freedom...and she isn't able to resist....

Jack has a moment to do the right thing..and he does. He does something really courageous and discovers that he is a good man...all evidence to the contrary...he gets the rewards that follow...the kiss from Elizabeth, and he did want to know what it tasted like....

So, the curiosity scene sets this up.. Ted and Terry say that in the curiosity scene they are outlining the things that the other would have to do in order to be accepted by the other..in order to have a relationship, which at the time they both think the other is incapable of doing, really..yet, at the end...they have met each others terms....the only thing standing between them now is personal hygiene...remember when there was rumor floating around that Jack was going to have a bath scene...LOL

If t and t blow all these clues and symbolisms out the window, then they have just disproved everything they worked so hard to weave into this very complicated movie plot....

And what is the plot? Jack's time is up, he made a deal with Davy Jones to resurrect the Pearl from it's watery grave...13 years ago.

He traded his soul to Davy. His debt is due. Davy wants to collect. Jack, being Jack, wants to find a way out of this deal, he wants to outsmart Davy. So, he needs a key to unlock a chest to get to the heart of Davy Jones. Whoever possesses the heart has the leverage to command Davy to whatever it is he/she desires. Okay. We know Jack loves freedom and staying alive. he wants that more than anything else in this world, or so we thought. So if all this is true, why doesn't his compass lead him to the key and the chest in order to save his life? Because his wants and desires are being messed up by a certain bonny lass that he left behind in Port Royal. The one and only person who meets him toe to toe...who does whatever is necessary to get what she wants...The compass isn't working for Jack. He is vexed. First Gibbs lets us in on that....then Tia in the cabin. We learn from Tia that the compass isn't working not because Jack doesn't know what he wants, but because he does know what he wants but is loathed to claim it as his own...Johnny in his interview says that Jack has something very specific on his mind during DMC...you would think it would be finding the key and the chest and escaping death..but when you dig deeper and you realize what's going on...it's not what Jack has on his mind totally....am I making any sense. I know we've been over all this before. But it just really gets me how many clues, symbolisms, plot twists that point to jack and liz for it to be anything else....savvy?

You've forgotten the rest of the plot, lovethemtigers, in an attempt to make it all about Jack and Elizabeth. There is a ton of stuff going on besides Jack's compass troubles.

You may not want to believe the leaked scripts, which is fine. 😉 But that doesn't mean that parts aren't true. 😛 I highly suspect that this comment is coming on the heels of people assuming that Teague is Jack's father, or that his name is Teague Sparrow.

The point is, Ted and Terry wrote the film, and yes, things change, but their intent doesn't. As Terry stated at KTTC, they wrote the films, not the fans and not the press. I think this is an attempt to keep people interested in the film, especially those who threaten blackmail on the writers if they don't get what they want. He wants us to see the film first, then pass judgement, and to not be so dependent on spoilers so that we won't go see the movie when it finally comes out.

We already know that many of the scenes from the leaked scripts have been filmed; so they can't all be false. 😛

At any rate, we're discussing J/E and other stuff, right? Right. Elizabeth leaned in for another kiss...but she did NOT kiss him. She didn't stay with him. She didn't do anything except leave to leave Jack behind to die.

What exactly do you make of that? We've already established that Elizabeth is not your typical female, that she's a strong female character. I find it hard to believe that she would go with Will simply because she feels like she's obligated to. She was obligated to marry James (she promised, after all), but she didn't.

I have a hard time establishing in my mind that Elizabeth is so strong and powerful, except when it comes to a man. Then she can't make up her mind and she kills him because she loves him too much? Or she kills him because she can't handle how she feels about him? No, the writers clearly stated that the only way to get Elizabeth to kiss Jack was if Will's life was in the balance. The ONLY way.

TnT do like to contradict themselves, so I am sure there is a possibility of there being a J/E ending. I admit I am not fond of J/E as a couple, but if it's done well, I won't have a problem with it. I just don't see how they could end it well without making Will's end utterly tragic.

Somehow, sailing the seas forever because his girl left him for another man strikes me as vastly unfair to Will's character, and I'd certainly hope they could do better than that.

I still think all the supposed hints of J/E are simply to make the audience think one way, when the plot will twist yet again and something different will happen. 😄

^^yeah,..well, you are probably right Surreal....and yes some of the leaked scripts parts have been filmed...but doesn't mean it will be in the final film...they are still editing as of last week....and what do you mean by supposed hint...I'm pointing out hints that ted and terry elude to themsleves...so they are not supposed...they are on purpose...

and....sorry, but the main plot of the dang movie is the fact that jack has a debt to pay to Davy Jones and he needs a key and a chest to get to the heart...but can't because his compass isnt' working...and if the compass is not the main thing...then why and the heck is there so much emphasis put on it...

and if it ends W/E...then what about Jack..does he deserve a tragic ending....there is no doubt that he is in love with Elizabeth IMO..and many others...so....

I don't know...

Surreal writes:

I have a hard time establishing in my mind that Elizabeth is so strong and powerful, except when it comes to a man. Then she can't make up her mind and she kills him because she loves him too much? Or she kills him because she can't handle how she feels about him? No, the writers clearly stated that the only way to get Elizabeth to kiss Jack was if Will's life was in the balance. The ONLY way.

Not True...because t and t do contradict themselves...they say they think this may be the only way that the audience would accept a kiss between jack and liz...yet, at the same time they do admit that Liz is doing this to jack to get rid of the temptation...that she issn't strong enough to out and out hurt Will...it's easier for her to hurt Jack..because she is slacking her lust and drowning her guilt...it is a kiss for the ages, a kiss that had been building since the day jack and elizabeth met....Jack looked into her eyes and knew that her heart and his were the same....

here it is Surreall...i will post it again..i typed this entry earlier on this thread as I was watching the DVD commentaries...

their exact wording in the commentary about the kiss...would she have been as severe on Jack had she not been so tempted by him....to both slack her lust and drown her guilt....if Jack is dead...he is no longer a temptation..It's funny how months ago before the DVD was released we said that exact thing on here...and there were some that came on here and told us that that was rediculous...you woudlnt' kill someone simply because you wanted to resist temptation..and that's exactly what they are saying here.....

Liz is a strong, wonderful character, but the very idea of her kissing Jack PRIMARILY to drown the guilt she feels for lusting after him makes her a complete *****. And that's not true. She's a risk-taker and sometimes she expects things to go a certain way and they don't, but everything she does is so things can go right later. She escapes Port Royal. Rash, full of risks, but done for a good reason. Decides to kiss Jack. Rash, full of risks, but done for a good reason. If you go back and watch the films, everything she does is for a good reason, at least in her mind. She would never do that to someone. Maybe there is a subconscious thing going on, but I'm positive that the MAIN reason she left Jack there was to save herself, Will, and the crew, which isn't selfish.
Toying with Jack's emotions, that is the selfish act.
I refuse to believe also that she is weak. Case in point, she is trying to be strong when she refuses to kiss Jack a second time. That isn't her denying her feelings for him. She's already pretty much admitted she has feelings for him (love or not, we don't know yet and can't guess). Reeling back and gritting her teeth is trying to be strong and follow through with her decision. If she kisses him a second time, she won't go through with her plan. That's not saying she made the choice and her choice is Will. It's saying, "I AM a strong woman and this is the way it has to be even though it's tragic." She hasn't made a choice as far as I'm concerned.

Still haven't had time to get my dvd out and listen to the commentary, but I have to say one other thing about Elizabeth's strength of character...I don't just think that her gritting her teeth and leaving Jack behind is because she's leaving behind a man she may possibly love.

I don't think her self-preservation is stronger than her sense of loyalty and love for those who have earned her trust. She nearly died because she would not shoot at that netting until Will was free. She waited, and waited, and kept waiting for him to get free, even though Will demanded that she shoot.

Will knew what would happen to him if Elizabeth shot that netting, yet he urged her to do it anyway, in order to save her and the others. But Elizabeth hesitated. She waited. She was NOT going to shoot unless Will was free.

Compare that to what she did with Jack. She waited for the others to begin boarding the longboat, she used her body as a weapon against Jack, and she left him there. Yes, she leaned in for another kiss, but she resisted...she didn't take that second opportunity to kiss him.

Why, if she was feeling less for Will, would she have risked the entire ship and crew, plus her own life, to let him free himself? If she was feeling such a deep and total connection to Jack, why would she leave him behind to die?

Elizabeth is the kind of person to throw herself, body and soul, into a situation regardless of the consequences. If she wants something badly enough, she will risk everything to get it. I am not entirely convinced that she showed that depth of love and feeling for Jack.

As I've said, TnT may surprise me by writing a brilliant and believable way for Jack and Elizabeth to be together, and for Will to complete his character arc and hopefully find some peace, but for now my money is still on the idea that Will and Elizabeth are going to fight to get back to each other. 😄

Good debate all around, so far. I've seen some really interesting ideas. 😄

I don't think her self-preservation is stronger than her sense of loyalty and love for those who have earned her trust. She nearly died because she would not shoot at that netting until Will was free. She waited, and waited, and kept waiting for him to get free, even though Will demanded that she shoot.

this is true but maybe she was waiting because she was afraid she would miss bacause she had trained with swords for awhile not a rifle

Will knew what would happen to him if Elizabeth shot that netting, yet he urged her to do it anyway, in order to save her and the others. But Elizabeth hesitated. She waited. She was NOT going to shoot unless Will was free.

of course Will would he cares for her on top of everything else in the world

Compare that to what she did with Jack. She waited for the others to begin boarding the longboat, she used her body as a weapon against Jack, and she left him there. Yes, she leaned in for another kiss, but she resisted...she didn't take that second opportunity to kiss him.

She used her body because she thought/knew he wouldn't stay behind unless she did. there is no denying her attraction to him maybe not deep love like will, yet but attraction. of course she waited for everyone else to be gone because she didnt want her fiance to see. and she most deffinitly will be guilty because of it and IMO she didnt go for another kiss because she wa afraid she wouldn't be able to let him go or she would unchain him....

Why, if she was feeling less for Will, would she have risked the entire ship and crew, plus her own life, to let him free himself? If she was feeling such a deep and total connection to Jack, why would she leave him behind to die?

good point..... try as i might I have no rebuttle for that one..... maybe if i think hard enough.... ..... lol🙂

Good debate all around, so far.

I agree 😄 i wanna debate 😄

If she was feeling such a deep and total connection to Jack, why would she leave him behind to die?

Because she's a confused young girl that doesn't know what she wants or feels.

oh no. we're back on the kiss of death debate again. this is almost as endlessly circling as the compass debate.

here's my conclusion. i have no idea who liz will end up with, but if it's not believable for her and jack to end up together, there's no way her and will could believably end up together either. its a delicate balance. it seems impossible for her to end up with one and not the other, it seems impossible for her to end alone. if they play the triangle right, it should seem equally possible for her to end up with either (as it clearly does right now, or we're just delusional). if it's very clear from the get-go that she cant end up with one (Jack), i would bet money on her ending alone. they arent going to make it that easy for her.

she left Jack behind the same reason she tide him up to slake her lust and drown her guilt. she is like Jack, she likes him but doesn't want to like him, so she does what is necassary and chains him to his death while she leaves. Also in Tia's hut she is guilt ridden so you know she feels terrible for what she has done.

I think Tnt said she was confused, i mean you are engaged to your fiance and you are also attracted to another man, she loves Will and she tied Jack up so he wasn't a temptation anymore, it's like you are on a diet, you want to keep to your diet and you see choclate and you adore choclate, so you have a little piece and then you throw the rest away so you can no longer be tempted to eat that said choclate. get what i am saying?