Jack, Elizabeth, the compass, and all those quotes....

It just seems to me that Ilsa ending up with Victor but loving Rick is an okay way to go... but no one sits around arguing that Ilsa really loves Victor more and is making that relationship work for her own happiness. There is a lot at stake--- the fate of a rebellion and countless lives. It's Rick's decision, not hers.

I dont think Elizabeth will fight for her relationship with Will on the basis of their own personal happiness anymore. There just seems to be too much between them (then again, this is Disney, and I've been watching too much Scorcese lately)... that if they do end up fighting to make their relationship work, it will be for other reasons, namely Will's life or the fate of piracy or something.

Or just the fact that they think that's the right thing to do. I can see that, them fighting for it because it's what they expected to do with their lives and they still think the other one really wants to. Will has been screwed over plenty of times by society too as someone earlier mentioned, but I think he views it just slightly differently than Liz does. She's not really abused by it, more like smothered with it.

But....knowing that Elizabeth has changed...and she's let her inner Pirate self surface...seems odd that she would fight to save a relationship just because it's the right thing to do...but then again...she still seems to be clinging to that honorable side of her...the promise she made to her father and to Will the day they pulled him out of the ocean when he was 12/13 years old...."I'm looking out for you, Will"....

I agree with Kate...if she fights to save the relationship..it's not going to be because she is in love with Will or can't live without him...it's going to be because it's a matter of LIfe or Death...and not where her heart truly lies.....

Exactly. She's going to do it because she loves Will, but not because she's in love with Will. She has changed, tasted freedom, seen what it's like to be out on her own and all that, but she's also a little disillusioned with it. She's seen the negative aspects as well as the positive. She wants to have an adventure while still being honorable. We've failed to mention that just because she's a pirate doesn't mean she WANTS to do these Machiavellian things like "turning on one of her own" as the writers put it. I think part of her is still convincing herself that piracy is just fun, but not a lifestyle.

Disney is not going to have the audience or the characters feel dissatisfied with how the love triangle is resolved. If Elizabeth ends up with Will, it's because that's what she really wants. I have never seen her do anything in the film because she has to, except for maybe wear the dress. 😛 Everything she has done is because she wants to do it, so I really think it's unfair to state that Elizabeth would only choose Will because she somehow feels obligated and that she no longer really loves him.

Elizabeth knows what she wants. She's confused right now, but when she finally decides, it will be because she is absolutely certain that it is what she wants. She's too passionate of a person to settle for anything less than that.

And has anyone ever thought that maybe it isn't the lifestyle so much as the actual person she wants to be with? Yeah, Jack's lifestyle is fun, and she's a pirate, BUT does she really love Jack, or is it just his lifestyle she's in love with? I think the writers also mentioned how Jack may not necessarily be in love with Elizabeth, but in love with the idea of having his own 'Elizabeth'. I can't recall the exact quote, but it was something along the lines of, "Is Jack vexed by Elizabeth because he's in love with her? Or is it that he's vexed because of what she represents?" And the quote goes on to give other suggestions for why Jack may be vexed by Elizabeth.

True love may not have anything to do with how Elizabeth and Jack feel about each other at all. Instead, it might be this idealized fantasy of having love (Jack's view), and having an idealized version of freedom (Elizabeth's view). The intensity and longing for such things might be mistaken by them (and us!) as love, when it's not remotely that simple at all.

It's just a thought. 😛 I know it's "anti-Sparrabeth", but it's good to look at all possible ideas, isn't it?

Or is it that he's vexed because of what she represents?" And the quote goes on to give other suggestions for why Jack may be vexed by Elizabeth.

Is this what you were talking about Surreal?

On the other hand, there is no denying the chemistry and heat that occures between Jack and Elizabeth (and their connection on Rumrunner's island.) Does the Compass not work because Elizabeth crossed into Jack's life -- and he wants her, that connection with another human being that even the sea cannot provide? Does Jack see qualities in Elizabeth (and all women) that are similar to the sea itself?

Now suddenly we have a man who used to have a simple desire -- freedom as offered by his ship and the sea -- who now finds himself with a bit of inner turmoil. Torn. Is there a desire for Elizabeth and could it grow? erhaps Elizabeth, or being with Elizabeth, represent his desire to let that 'honest streak' come out and live the life of a good man?

http://forums.keeptothecode.com/viewtopic.php?p=176018&highlight=#176018

way to go Misty...gosh that's awfully close to what I said somewhere else....and I hadn't even read this post yet...

here's what I wrote....

This is what gets me the most....some try to downplay the fact that Jack wants Elizabeth..that the romance part of DMC is just a filler...but that can't be right..because the whole plot/story of the movie is that Jack has debt to pay to Davy Jones and he needs save his life by finding the key, unlocking the chest and having the heart of Davy Jones...BUT....the compass isn't working for Jack..in that matter...Elizabeth is playing into his thoughts....Jack needs the help of Will and Elizabeth to help him find the key and the chest..bec ause he is being so vexed by Elizabeth he cannot do it himself...So the fact that Johnny says in that interview that Jack has something very specific on his mind...I would say that that very specific thing is Elizabeth...because if it were finding the key and the chest...No Worries, then, mate...the compass would have led him to it...but instead...it only keeps pointing him back to Port Royal and a certain Bonny Lass...Savvy....
Jack wants freedom more than anything...Right? and staying alive and out of Davy's cluthces would represent that freedom, Right? so...why doesn't him compass work for him? Because..now that's now what he wants most in this world...he wants Elizabeth..and not just in a romantic/sexual sense of the word....but in wanting a relationship/life with her....she now represents freedom for Jack..IMO...freedom to be the man he truly is...a good man...

Thank you lovethemtigers 😄 I love your banner BTW And yes that was really closed to what you just said.

I agree with you there misty, I think also there is another problem with jack is that he does not know how to react around with Eilzabeth...Meaning he does not know what to do in a real relation ship....Sure Jack is a Lady's man but it's more ok move one type thing...but, he does not know anything about a real relationship....I think with lizzie it will be quit different and new experiance for him that he will never forget...

I believe that is the quote, yes, Misty. 😄 It's just a point to not say that J/E isn't going to work, but to look at it from a non-romantic point of view. Maybe they aren't in love with each other.

I believe the writers also said that they tried to make it clear that Jack is not "safely and easily in love" with Elizabeth, and that the movie does not directly show that it actually is Elizabeth herself that is vexing Jack's compass.

In fact, they almost indicate that Elizabeth may be the catalyst but not the true reason why his compass isn't working. 😄 It is just our own interperatation of the films that leads us to believe that Jack is in love with her, when it could just be an attempt to misdirect us from what Jack really wants. Again, this is just a thought. 😄

It is one of T and T's rules (apparantly) to make every single male in the films fall in love with Elizabeth, so I reckon old Jack is, in fact, in love with her. Considering there are clearly no other eligible females in the caribbean, its hardly surprising. 😉

I understood something else Surreal,

Jack may not necessarily be in love with Elizabeth, but in love with the idea of having his own 'Elizabeth'.

Well, yes, you could read it that way. I respectfully state though that the writers make it clear that Jack himself doesn't know what he wants, and that possibly, it isn't Elizabeth but all women that vex Jack. That is what makes me think that perhaps it isn't Elizabeth at all that Jack is in love with or wants, but that there is someone else, and Elizabeth simply reminds him of that.

Jack probably does love Elizabeth, but I think it is important to look at every possible meaning, just to be sure no hints are missed. 😄

...sorry but...all women????isn´t it ..mm weird???i don´t know but maybe it relates with jack´s line : "a woman" maybe i am wrong but i understand it like one woman and this one woman is elizabeth...one woman who is jack vexing by...all women??ok maybe women vex men universally...but our one jack is vexing by one woman and i doubt that woman is someone else(not elizabeth)...who then???i doubt it is tia dalma!!!and i doubt it is one of the tortuga´s women...and who else then???there in the film have never been any other women...or women in jack´s life ...and in AWE isn´t any other new female character and in the main characters of AWE isn´t any at all...so who else it could be???....and you are saying that jack mustn´t be in love with liz right???so...if he wasn´t in love with her,would he let his mind thinking about her so much to let himself die???because for me it means that he died for her...and would he die for someone who reminds him of someone who he truly loves???isn´t it too crazy..or weird????i think so...i really doubt that he has someone else..secret lover...?.and how do you explain why was jack singing a pirates life for me the song which liz taught him on the island???just because it suddenly came to his mind when did he leave port royal and when did he let one lady, to be with one blacksmith?????...

JacksSweet, please put your thoughts into complete sentences. You have some good ideas, but it's much easier for other people to read them when they're in sentence form. Once again, people put way too much emphasis on the "a woman" line. Jack answers the question right BECAUSE HE'S HEARD THE STORY BEFORE. Tia is telling the story for Will, not Jack. Jack just wants to know where the key is.

My personal opinion, judging by the movie, the way the actors have played it, and the comments by T&T, Jack may have always wanted to be in a serious relationship and be able to really be free with one person, but now I do believe he has a face and a name. It's one thing to want to be in love, or at least close to someone, but I think he's already made the transition from wanting that to wanting Liz.

While it's my opinion that without a doubt Jack IS in love with Liz by now, I'm still not sure about her. It seems the writers are being more vague about her feelings, and there are far fewer hints about how she is feeling than about how he is feeling. You can interpret the kiss in 2, well, 3, ways.

1. Liz kissed Jack to save Will who is her true love and she performed a kiss simply because she thought it would be the most effective way. She may have lusted for him a little bit, but nothing serious.
ADVANTAGE: This gets rid of the idea of a love triangle but provides the writers with an excuse to have two characters who have great chemistry to kiss. Also, it fits with Liz's noble side, that she is sacrificing her faithfulness to Will to save him and the crew.
PROBLEM: There is a lot going on to suggest Liz feels a little more for Jack than this theory states.

2. Liz kissed Jack primarily to drown her guilt of having feelings for a man that is not Will. By kissing him, she can "slake her lust" and by chaining him she can "drown her guilt." With Jack out of the picture, she is forced into being faithful to Will.
ADVANTAGE: This fits with Liz's pirate side that she'll turn on people. It also pleases SOME J/Eers since it implies her feelings for him are so strong it terrifies her.
PROBLEM: Liz isn't that much of a *****. While she is a pirate, she's a good woman (who does THAT sound like?) and she would never kill someone to just get them out of the way. It also goes against the idea of loving Jack since if she loved him she would never do it.

3. A combination of 1 and 2.
ADVANTAGE: This fits Liz's character the best.
PROBLEM: It makes the triangle unpredictable.

Ok, Misty and Kate are here when Im not!! Ahh!!! I can't even send a cyber hug 🙁

Back to subject *smacks herself back into reality*

I tried to annalyze on what you ladies are saying. Honestly I can't read it all because right now I'm a little whoozy and shaky. So Im sorry I couldn't read all of your opinions. But just by looking through it, you gals have great arguments here.

ok, back to the basics...

About the kiss. Ok, so some people say that it was just to save Will. She performed that infedelity to Will in order to save Will, so therefore she wasn't 'cheating' on Will. That's a good point, but then why the kiss? She's strong, and fast. She can sure handle a sword--two swords actually. Why coulnd't she just poited a sword to Jack and make him stay? Anything! A gun, sword, a piece of a chopped arm from one of the corpses--whatever. Why the kiss? And here is a bigger question:
Why did she leaned for another, almost kiss?

And, yes, I agree with willofthewhisp on that statement of Jack being in love with Liz at this very moment. But with Elizabeth, no one is sure. No doubt, she has feelings, feelings of caring for Jack. But those feelings have a potential to love Jack. Like what TnT said:"...whom she may indeed be in love with." Doesn't mean that she's in love but it doens't mean that she doesn't have that potential to love Jack.

just got word from a little bird...that we are not to believe any of the leaked scripts, spoilers and pictures..that things are still changing in the edit room...very interesting.....a little bird named Terry who responded to someone on wordplayer....http://www.wordplayer.com/forums/movies/index.cgi?read=95346

AHA^^^

leaked scripts can kiss my ass--sorry *chews orbit gum*

So glad that Terry himself is the one who posted it.

i didnt believe any of the leaked scripts anyways...i kinda expected this

Yay! A lesson learned to all those who live off of the rumor-mill.

Chiki, I think you summarized it exactly: Liz may not love Jack right now, but that doesn't mean she won't later. That's what leaves us in suspense as far as the love triangle goes. There are so many loose ends in other parts of the story, too.
I think I have an answer, though, as to why she used a kiss and not a weapon if we're going with the save Will theory. As far as I know, she doesn't have her own sword right now. Will took hers and she shared two swords with Pintel and Ragetti in the subsequent battle. Maybe I don't have the blocking down exactly, but did she ever get her sword back? If not, she's unarmed and doesn't have anything with her. Also, when she decided she would keep Jack there by force, it really saved time that she didn't fumble around picking up a hammer or whatever. She used her only resource available to her, which was her body. Jack may have suspected something was up, but he would have definitely fought her had she had a sword. A kiss was the best weapon against him.
But it's the leaning in for a second one that shoots that theory down.