Believing in a limited God

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I don't think anyone believes in a limited god. I think a lot of people think the god that you worship is a limited god. There is a big difference.

You believe that you yourself are God in a sense, and that God can never be separated from you. I believe the only thing that makes me part of God, is the grace that he has extended to me thru Jesus Christ. So yes, you do believe in a limited God, as you believe he cannot exist apart from you.

All of this aside, what motivates you to continue living in this world - believing that only death awaits you at the end of your life? As for myself, I could find no happiness or joy in life, despite what it offered me -- if Love didn't exist apart from this life, or if it was never present within it.

Originally posted by Thundar
You believe that you yourself are God in a sense, and that God can never be separated from you. I believe the only thing that makes me part of God, is the grace that he has extended to me thru Jesus Christ. So yes, you do believe in a limited God, as you believe he cannot exist apart from you.

All of this aside, what motivates you to continue living in this world - believing that only death awaits you at the end of your life? As for myself, I could find no happiness or joy in life, despite what it offered me -- if Love didn't exist apart from this life, or if it was never present within it.

I don't believe in a "god". I simply have to talk to people who do believe in a "god". I use expedient means to communicate with you.

If you want to know what I truly believe, I can recommend a book or two.

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
I don't believe in a "god". I simply have to talk to people who do believe in a "god". I use expedient means to communicate with you.

If you want to know what I truly believe, I can recommend a book or two.

Well technically speaking, you do believe in a god, however, as stated before the god in your life just represents yourself, as you believe the ultimate outcome of your life is dependant upon yourself.

That being stated, is it fair to say that your sole motivation for living this life, is based on living for yourself?

EDIT: Thank you for offering the book recommendations, but I respectfully decline your offer.

Originally posted by Thundar
Well technically speaking, you do believe in a god, however, as stated before the god in your life just represents yourself, as you believe the ultimate outcome of your life is dependant upon yourself.

That being stated, is it fair to say that your sole motivation for living this life, is based on living for yourself?

EDIT: Thank you for offering the book recommendations, but I respectfully decline your offer.

Just because you say it, does not make it true. You are confusing my connectedness it God, with selfishness. Buddhism is not selfish, and you really should learn what another person believes before you speak for them.

I do not worship a god. Worship is silliness from my point of view.

Originally posted by Thundar
Knowing truth(or God) and completely understanding what makes up truth(or God) are two different things. For example, I can know someone, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I have a complete understanding of that someone. The understanding part comes with building a relationship with that someone, and whether or not that individual at some point chooses to share everything there is to know about themselves with myself. This is a rather simplistic premise, which I'm surprised you haven't been able to pick up on within the context of any of our other debates.

This concept you speak of I am very well aware of, and in tune with. However, what you say now contradicts mainstream Christianity in general. You speak idealy about understanding others, understanding where other people are coming from, which is a beautiful idea, yet you judge those you do not know.

Such hypocrisy is unadmirable. We are all hypocrites yes, but when we recognize this, we should try to limit our hypocrisy as much as possible.

Conservative Christianity does not call for empathy. It does not call for us to understand another, in fact, it calls for us to close our mind and think one way. The discrimination and judgement of Atheists, Buddhists, Homosexuals, and people of other faiths fails to represent the point you made above.

And your concept of building a relationship with God, therefore claiming to know him is unreliable, since nearly every Christian claims they know God, but have contradiction descriptions of him.

Most people who have claimed to know God's will have also proven to be frauds.

Originally posted by Thundar
The point I have always made is that you and I are not omnipotent nor are we omniscient, so we do not have the ability to state what is possible to do with omnipotence or omniscience. Again, another simple concept that seems to have alluded you. All of this is a very moot point anyway, as you have already vehemently denied either of these two things existing.

Knowing that we do not have the ability to fully understand omnipotence, why do you argue that God is in fact, omnipotent ? 😬

You are contradicting yourself here Whob....Shakymunison has already made the point that we cannot know absolute truth, yet you earlier claimed that you could know absolute truth through faith, and NOW you are arguing that no one can possible know absolute truth because we are limitted...

Please make up your mind 👇

Originally posted by Nellinator
We are talking about whether certain characteristics of God are flaws, not whether the Bible is valid. I'd be more than happy to discuss it with you elsewhere.

Telling me what we are or are not talking about isn't really the point. A completely valid question has been posed to you. You can't answer it, or you won't. If you want to know about the flaws of god, that's between your concept of him and your ability to question with logic. But if you know the history of teh bible, then how can you honestly call it the infallible word of an all knowing god?

Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Just because you say it, does not make it true. You are confusing my connectedness it God, with selfishness. Buddhism is not selfish, and you really should learn what another person believes before you speak for them.

I do not worship a god. Worship is silliness from my point of view.

I'm not confusing anything, everything that comes from my post is essentially what you've presented at some point within our discussions. Your religion or god is indeed self oriented, as it centers around doing what pleases yourself. You believe in following your own "truth" as you put it, and by making up your own version of truth, you are essentially claiming that you are God.

Originally posted by Thundar
I'm not confusing anything, everything that comes from my post is essentially what you've presented at some point within our discussions. Your religion or god is indeed self oriented, as it centers around doing what pleases yourself. You believe in following your own "truth" as you put it, and by making up your own version of truth, you are essentially claiming that you are God.

You may have interpreted that from what I wrote, but I never wrote that. I take responsibility for myself, but that is not self oriented.

I also claim that you are God. I use "I" language because I cannot speak for you.

If I believed in following my own truth, I would have claimed that truth was something that could be followed.

I only responded to two of your posts, as most of what you've posted delves into homosexuality, atheism, and other topics which have little to do with the subject of this thread.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
This concept you speak of I am very well aware of, and in tune with. However, what you say now contradicts mainstream Christianity in general. You speak idealy about understanding others, understanding where other people are coming from, which is a beautiful idea, yet you judge those you do not know.

I don't speak about having a complete understanding of anything, the only things I speak about are those things that I have observed. My judgements are solely based on these observations.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
And your concept of building a relationship with God, therefore claiming to know him is unreliable, since nearly every Christian claims they know God, but have contradiction descriptions of him.

Knowing God, and completely understanding him are two completely different things. This has already been explained in the prior post, no need for us to go in circles about it. One gradually builds a relationship with God and understands him better when they study and meditate upon his word. If one doesn't wish to get to know God, then that's the only thing that limits them to having a loving relationship with him.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Knowing that we do not have the ability to fully understand omnipotence, why do you argue that God is in fact, omnipotent ? 😬

Faith and love are the defining things that prove my belief in God's omnipotence. I've also observed what he can do through my faith and love for him, and what loving things that God has done for myself, yourself, and countless others.

Originally posted by Thundar
...Faith and love are the defining things that prove my belief in God's omnipotence...

This is the main point where we disagree. I do not believe that love is proof of anything.

Originally posted by Thundar
Faith and love are the defining things that prove my belief in God's omnipotence.

"Love and Faith" are NOT proof of ANYTHING

I LOVE everyone in my life, and I have Faith in Buddhist teachings....How is your "love and faith" proof, while mine isn't ?

Originally posted by Thundar
Without getting into excessive recitations of scripture, I think the problem here peejayd, is that you're confusing "cannot" with "will not."

"In hope of eternal life, which God, who cannot lie, promised before times eternal;"
Titus 1:2

* i'm not confused, my friend...

Originally posted by Thundar
Can God lie?

* no, according to the verse above...

Originally posted by Thundar
Of course he can.

* moreover, read this:

"That by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we may have a strong encouragement, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us:"
Hebrews 6:18

* it is impossible for God to lie...

Originally posted by Thundar
But he chooses not to lie. Why? Simple, because he's loving.

* God will not lie, simply because He cannot and it is impossible for Him to do so... 😉

Originally posted by peejayd
"In hope of eternal life, which God, who [B]cannot lie, promised before times eternal;"
Titus 1:2

* i'm not confused, my friend...

* no, according to the verse above...

* moreover, read this:

"That by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we may have a strong encouragement, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us:"
Hebrews 6:18

My description of what God can do was a poor one. I'll admit that. So let me further extrapolate. God is the word and is himself defined as truth, so the impossibility lies not in his ability to lie, it lies(no pun intended) in our ability to prove him to be a liar. Or to simplify, we can't use the Truth to call the Truth a liar. So again, the limitation is on us, not on God. Or as Job put it --

Job 42:2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.

Job 42:3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.

Even if a man(or demon) were to say to God he was lying, he'd have no ability to prove his Word untrue, since he doesn't possess full knowledge or full understanding of God's Word, or what he has defined within his Word to be a lie.

So everytime you or I attempted to call God a liar peejayd, he could just respond back to you with a simple "no I am not. You are the liar."
And based on your limited knowledge of what a lie is, the fact that God is omnipotent, and the fact that God's omnipotent Word represents Truth, you'd be unable to refute what God had defined you to be - and God would always be correct in what he defined you as.

All this being stated - with the knowledge of what a lie is, God has stated and demonstrated to us through his Word, that he will never use his knowledge in an evil way. Could he choose to use his Word in the way in which he defines "evil"? He sure could. But he chooses not to do so because he is loving.

*or to simplify peejayd..God is love..😉

EDIT: I gotta go to work right now, I'll respond to the other posts later.

Originally posted by Lord Urizen
"Love and Faith" [b]are NOT proof of ANYTHING

I LOVE everyone in my life, and I have Faith in Buddhist teachings....How is your "love and faith" proof, while mine isn't ? [/B]

Okay. I'm on a break for now. So I guess I'll now respond to this.

When one has faith in Love existing only within the individual, or more specifically they individualize the concept of Love, they have already limited the ability of what their Love can do.

My faith allows me to believe that Love can do anything, and it can't be comprehended or completely understood by an individual(using the term "individual" loosely of course) who only understands Love from a limited perspective. Or as God puts it in his word --

John 1: 4,5

In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.

Your Love is bound by your faith in friends, family, and your religion. My Love is not bound by my faith, nor is it bound by yours or anyone else's dark comprehensions of it - it exists apart from all of us, however, my faith in this Love is what proves the existence of it, as my faith in this Love allows it to produce good works through me.

You can never comprehend this Love Urizen, nor will you ever be able to control it - because it exists apart from the limited view of what you assume Love to be.

Originally posted by Thundar
My description of what God can do was a poor one. I'll admit that. So let me further extrapolate. God is the word and is himself defined as truth, so the impossibility lies not in his ability to lie, it lies(no pun intended) in our ability to prove him to be a liar. Or to simplify, we can't use the Truth to call the Truth a liar. So again, the limitation is on us, not on God. Or as Job put it --

Job 42:2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.

Job 42:3 [b]Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.[/B]

* the statement, "God can do everything", does not (in my humble opinion), in any way, nullifies other statements such as: "God cannot lie" or "it is impossible for God to lie"... because eventhough He is incapable of lying, it does not mean that He is flawed nor limited... He is still Almighty...

"For the Lord is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations."
Psalms 100:5

* God's truth endureth to all generations... and i believe that God cannot really lie because there is another entity who bears that title - The Liar...

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof."
John 8:44

* Satan, the Devil bears the title - "the father of lies" according to Jesus... there is no truth in Satan, the exact opposite of God who cannot lie... i hope you got my point, my friend... 😉

Originally posted by peejayd
* the statement, "God can do everything", does not (in my humble opinion), in any way, nullifies other statements such as: "God cannot lie" or "it is impossible for God to lie"... because eventhough He is incapable of lying, it does not mean that He is flawed nor limited... He is still Almighty...

"For the Lord is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations."
Psalms 100:5

* God's truth endureth to all generations... and i believe that God cannot really lie because there is another entity who bears that title - The Liar...

Jesus said to him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." -- John 14:6 (NKJV)

God in his omnipotence - has already defined himself to be Truth and not to be liar, so that makes it only impossible for us to label him as a liar, but that does not make it impossible for him to lie.

Or looking at it from a broader perspective, lying is just another form of sin, and God has already defined himself to be sinless. Therefore, it is only impossible for us to define him as a sinner. So God does indeed know what sin is and how to sin, since well..he defined what it is. And being that he defined what it is, it is quite possible for him to act in the way in which he defined sin to be. But he won't -- or as God himself puts it...

Malachi 3:6
For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

So the implication given is not that God can't change himself and commit this thing he defines as sin, but rather, in the perfection of his Love and grace as well as with his omnipotence, he chooses not to change, and will always stick adhere to Truth as he has defined it.

Originally posted by peejayd
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof."
John 8:44

* Satan, the Devil bears the title - "the father of lies" according to Jesus... there is no truth in Satan, the exact opposite of God who cannot lie... i hope you got my point, my friend... 😉

This is a bit off-topic, but I felt it necessary to address it as perhaps I didn't word my post as well as I should have. As you have stated, God is not the Father of sin, however, in his perfection and Love he does allow it, knowing that his reign over it will allow the perfection of his Love to increase.

If God was indeed limited or incapable of doing anything, even sinning, then he would not be able to reign over sin. We know this to not be the case. I summarized this point in another thread quite well. I must admit, I was extremely confused on this topic myself and I got some clarity on it from Nellinator, and then prayed to God about it. Below is the original post regarding God's reign over sin.

Originally posted by Thundar

Or how about this. God is Love. Love encompasses everything, Thus encompassing everything, it has reign over everything, including evil. This reign over everything, gives love or God, the ability to righteously condemn evil. Therefore God being fully loving, allows the existence of evil knowing that it will only justify and strengthen the existence and reign of love. And if God did not allow the opposite of himself to exist, then there would be no justification for him being loving, and well quite frankly he himself wouldn't be loving. Or as the apostle Paul whom you like so much graciously puts it:

Romans 5:20-21
"Moreover, the law entered, that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound, that as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ, our Lord"

So although sin may have increased with evil's existence, Love increased even more so. Or think about it this way. If evil existed outside of God, then God would have no control of it, and we'd all be at the mercy of evil. This would include God or Love himself. By acknowledging himself as encompassing and having complete control and domnion over evil, God once again justifies himself to be fully loving God, capable of offering eternal life to all of his creations through our lord Christ Jesus.

All this being stated, I truly am greatful that I have been allowed to worship and get to know a loving God with this gift he's given me called "life." After having posted on this forum to you and many others, I have full faith and confidence now that he is indeed a God who will never abuse the power he possesses, one whose power and knowledge is beyond the comprehension of this world full of sin, and one who as you so graciously quoted -- consists of Truth that "endureth to all generations", a Truth that cannot be overcome by the "Father of lies" or any of those who purposefully attempt to mock and misrepresent his Word.

Originally posted by Thundar
Okay. I'm on a break for now. So I guess I'll now respond to this.

Thanks Whobdamandog, I'm flattered

Originally posted by Thundar
When one has faith in Love existing only within the individual, or more specifically they individualize the concept of Love, they have already limited the ability of what their Love can do.

I agree. You should take your own advice 👆

Originally posted by Thundar
My faith allows me to believe that Love can do anything, and it can't be comprehended or completely understood by an individual(using the term "individual" loosely of course) who only understands Love from a limited perspective. Or as God puts it in his word --

I agree that Love cannot be defined by a single human being or even by a group of people, but we all understand it, because we all experience it in some way, shape, or form.

However, you are already limitting your own perception of Love when you define it as only existing within God. (Rendering everyone else's perception of Love irrelevant) How can you not see your own hypocrisy? 😬

Originally posted by Thundar
John 1: 4,5

In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, [b]but the darkness has not understood it.[/B]

Completely Irrelevant as you are not answering my actual question 👇

My question was how is your Love and Faith valid while mine and Shaky's is not ? You are attempting to use a Biblical quote to prove the Bible valid, that is foolish and pathetic.

PLEASE ANSWER MY QUESTION

Originally posted by Thundar
Your Love is bound by your faith in friends, family, and your religion.

WRONG 👇

My love is bound by NOTHING...all living things deserve Love, and to limit love is foolish.

Originally posted by Thundar
My Love is not bound by my faith, nor is it bound by yours or anyone else's dark comprehensions of it - it exists apart from all of us, however, my faith in this Love is what proves the existence of it, as my faith in this Love allows it to produce good works through me.

My love also allows me to produce good works through me...I guess that's proof that my Faith and Love are True...

God whob, you are such an idiot 🙄

Originally posted by Thundar
You can never comprehend this Love Urizen, nor will you ever be able to control it - because it exists apart from the limited view of what you assume Love to be.

How do you know what I assume Love to be ? I have never made an attempt to define it, nor have I ever explained my perception of it.

1) You automatically assume you know my stance on Love which you do NOT, and then go on to make stupid judgements based on what you assume. You are fool.

2) You say that we cannot define Love, or individualize it, yet you already limit your own perception of Love by claiming it can only exist in God....you already cut off the mystery of Love, and claimed to know its true essense and definition. You are a hypocrite.

3) YOU DID NOT ACTUALLY ANSWER MY QUESTION- you continue on with this semantic BULLSHIT about how you Love and Faith are true, because you BELIEVE they are true, but then you cannot separate your beleif from others.

You assume what mine and Shaky's perceptions are, then claim that our beleifs are false, while yours are true, because you "beleive them to be true"

How is your belief any more valid than our own?

Answer my ****ing question Whob

Originally posted by Thundar
Jesus said to him, "[b]I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me." -- John 14:6 (NKJV)

God in his omnipotence - has already defined himself to be Truth and not to be liar, so that makes it only impossible for us to label him as a liar, but that does not make it impossible for him to lie.

Or looking at it from a broader perspective, lying is just another form of sin, and God has already defined himself to be sinless. Therefore, it is only impossible for us to define him as a sinner. So God does indeed know what sin is and how to sin, since well..he defined what it is. And being that he defined what it is, it is quite possible for him to act in the way in which he defined sin to be. But he won't -- or as God himself puts it...

Malachi 3:6
For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.

So the implication given is not that God can't change himself and commit this thing he defines as sin, but rather, in the perfection of his Love and grace as well as with his omnipotence, he chooses not to change, and will always stick adhere to Truth as he has defined it.

This is a bit off-topic, but I felt it necessary to address it as perhaps I didn't word my post as well as I should have. As you have stated, God is not the Father of sin, however, in his perfection and Love he does allow it, knowing that his reign over it will allow the perfection of his Love to increase.

If God was indeed limited or incapable of doing anything, even sinning, then he would not be able to reign over sin. We know this to not be the case. I summarized this point in another thread quite well. I must admit, I was extremely confused on this topic myself and I got some clarity on it from Nellinator, and then prayed to God about it. Below is the original post regarding God's reign over sin.

All this being stated, I truly am greatful that I have been allowed to worship and get to know a loving God with this gift he's given me called "life." After having posted on this forum to you and many others, I have full faith and confidence now that he is indeed a God who will never abuse the power he possesses, one whose power and knowledge is beyond the comprehension of this world full of sin, and one who as you so graciously quoted -- consists of Truth that "endureth to all generations", a Truth that cannot be overcome by the "Father of lies" or any of those who purposefully attempt to mock and misrepresent his Word. [/B]

Keep up the good work brother. The Bible states that out of the abundance of the the heart the mouth speaks. The Word further states that you will know a tree by its fruit. Your words and the fruit that has come from those words appears to be of God. Thus, I believe that you are truly born again and that you know Jesus the Christ as I do. Keep on telling the world about Jesus, for you will be greatly rewarded when you stand before our Lord, our King, and our God: Jesus Christ.

I love it when one sock encourages another sock. 😆

Originally posted by JesusIsAlive
Keep up the good work brother. The Bible states that out of the abundance of the the heart the mouth speaks. The Word further states that you will know a tree by its fruit. Your words and the fruit that has come from those words appears to be of God. Thus, I believe that you are truly born again and that you know Jesus the Christ as I do. Keep on telling the world about Jesus, for you will be greatly rewarded when you stand before our Lord, our King, and our God: Jesus Christ.