Re: Re: Would you still Worship Christ if....
Originally posted by Quiero Mota
^ That's every Muslim's wet-dream: proof that 'Isa bin Mariam' lacks divinity.To answer the thread, I would either become either a Jew or a Muslim, because they also worship the God of Abraham. Christianity would be rendered false, so I would have to reevaluate my view of God.
So why would you have to be a Jew or Christian there other religons you know? 🙄
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
Thundar do you think you will ever help Lord Urizen?If you really have a non-selfish intent, you would never give up on anyone. Lord Urizen is not evil. He is young and having to struggle with the complexities of his life. If you have something to offer him, you would listen and address him with compassion regardless of his misguided intent. I’m not saying you have to condone his point of view, but to discard him, reflex poorly on you.
Helping people is not= telling people what they want to hear. I answered his question, and stated that I would not have much respect or love for an evil Christ, or an anti-Christ.
I would have compassion for one though as I don't hate anyone nor do I enjoy seeing anyone suffer. I do hate it though when people purposely attempt to mislead and/or misrepresent others -- out of anger and self loathing, or out of a false sense of entitlement, or lust for power, or just for the sake of getting revenge.
Doing these things would all be characteristics of an unloving God, and anyone who says they would greatly respect such a God and still have much love for such a God is demonstrating who it is they really follow.
Originally posted by Thundar
Helping people is not= telling people what they want to hear. I answered his question, and stated that I would not have much respect or love for an evil Christ, or an anti-Christ.I would have compassion for one though as I don't hate anyone nor do I enjoy seeing anyone suffer. I do hate it though when people purposely attempt to mislead and/or misrepresent others -- out of anger and self loathing, or out of a false sense of entitlement, or lust for power, or just for the sake of getting revenge.
Doing these things would all be characteristics of an unloving God, and anyone who says they would greatly respect such a God and still have much love for such a God is demonstrating who it is they really follow.
Then why do some many people think you did not answer the question?
Originally posted by Regret
Sorry, but one cannot discern this unless one has judged another already. All the same, it is a harmless hypothetical question regardless of the motives of the author.And the simple answer for most Christians should be that they would no longer believe as they have concerning Christ but his teachings would still be held in high esteem because they are intrinsically based in humanitarian principle. If Christ is, or is not, who we believe him to be, the value of his teachings is the reason someone should live them, not for some reward for living them. For the value of living them, regardless of the end reward.
I do not believe in existence as a Buddhist does, but much of their teachings are honest and beneficial for all people. I do not believe as many religions do, but almost all religions have some truth that is beneficial for man.
Regardless of our opinion of Urizen, the question is being discussed. If you cannot respond appropriately to the thread there is no point in participating in it. Which is what Marcu has correctly stated.
I agree with you that we shouldn't seek a reward when attempting to do good. But how could one claim that they are still doing good, or the teachings of the person they followed were of a good intent and merit -- if the individual they were following -- had proven to have lied about the foundation of his entire doctrine?
That's another reason why the question was a vieled one. Nothing done with evil intent should be considered of good merit. Love, existing and reigning over evil though - can still overcome this evil and use it for good merit though -- or as the scripture puts it(I'm paraphrasing so please excuse, as I could not find the exact verse)
Romans 12:21
Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good.
So the evil that existed in you, myself, or someone else by following such an evil doctrine, could still be overcome by God leading you away from it -- and bringing you to the truth.
I strongly believe that God will have compassion on all those who are lead by such doctrines, and only hold those responsable for leading people astray with them accountable, or as he himself puts it --
Matthew 18:6-7
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
Originally posted by Thundar
Helping people is not= telling people what they want to hear. I answered his question, and stated that I would not have much respect or love for an evil Christ, or an anti-Christ.I would have compassion for one though as I don't hate anyone nor do I enjoy seeing anyone suffer. I do hate it though when people purposely attempt to mislead and/or misrepresent others -- out of anger and self loathing, or out of a false sense of entitlement, or lust for power, or just for the sake of getting revenge.
Doing these things would all be characteristics of an unloving God, and anyone who says they would greatly respect such a God and still have much love for such a God is demonstrating who it is they really follow.
Heres the thing Thundar. Coming on to a board like this one, particularily the religion part of the board...I don't think that taking ANY approach other than being yourself as a Child of God works. Throwing out bible verses and such here means next to nothing. The non-believers on here already know the way to be saved (from a Christian stand point). The majority of them have studied the bible, I'm sure. In fact, many of them know the bible better than I do. Throwing out verses to a non-believer helps nothing, in my opinion. It's like ( providing there was such a thing) and Athiest throwing bits and pieces of their "book" to me as a steadfast believer in God. It wouldn't mean anything to me, right? If I am not to be shaken and hold firm to what I believe.
The way I see it, my life stories, my upbrining, my testemony...ME...that is what they can respect for now. Not verses. I know it is the traditional christian thing to do to bring out the bible and start there...but that does not always work. It only frustrates people. Let them get to know you, your history, why you beleive what you do. Talk to them, answer their questions and answer them in a HYPOTHETICAL way. I have learnt little bits and pieces of the people here, and it's very interesting, no?
AND, always remember that EVERYONE is a sinner, christian or not. And your sin is no less or no greater than theirs. God is good Thundar. You and I know that for sure. Pray a little about different ways to reach people. At some point one needs to ask if what they are doing is getting them anywhere and if the answer is no, then look for different ways.
Oh, and regardless of Urizens intent or wording...it still is an opportunity to think and answer...you won't be shaken if you are firm in your belief.
Re: Would you still Worship Christ if....
Originally posted by Lord Urizen
Let's just say that in some future timeline where we still exist, there was[b] concrete proof that Jesus Christ was simply a human being and was never resurrected.I don't know what the proof would be, but for argument's sake, let us just say it was universally proven by all standards, and there was no more room for denial.
Would you abandon Christ ? Would you no longer worship him ? Would you deny his words, and forget about him as your savior ? (to all Christians)
Or
Would you still love him because of the teachings he has presented to you ? Would you remain loyal despite his lack of divinity, despite his being a human being, because of the example he set ? [/B]
There is proof anyhow that he did exist and is/was divine. You need to look no further than those who have received the stigmate...wounds of Christ: most notably, St. Francis of Assisi and Padre Pio (who died recently, no less).
But, back to the thread, if hypothetically this were to be case, I would recognize him like the Pope or some other peaceful leader.
Cheers.
Re: Re: Would you still Worship Christ if....
Originally posted by BobbyD
There is proof anyhow that he did exist and is/was divine. You need to look no further than those who have received the stigmate...wounds of Christ: most notably, St. Francis of Assisi and Padre Pio (who died recently, no less).But, back to the thread, if hypothetically this were to be case, I would recognize him like the Pope or some other peaceful leader.
Cheers.
There isn't a single shread of concrete proof that Jesus was divine, at best it's all hearsay; it all boils down to faith.
Originally posted by marcu
Heres the thing Thundar. Coming on to a board like this one, particularily the religion part of the board...I don't think that taking ANY approach other than being yourself as a Child of God works. Throwing out bible verses and such here means next to nothing. The non-believers on here already know the way to be saved (from a Christian stand point). The majority of them have studied the bible, I'm sure. In fact, many of them know the bible better than I do. Throwing out verses to a non-believer helps nothing, in my opinion. It's like ( providing there was such a thing) and Athiest throwing bits and pieces of their "book" to me as a steadfast believer in God. It wouldn't mean anything to me, right? If I am not to be shaken and hold firm to what I believe.The way I see it, my life stories, my upbrining, my testemony...ME...that is what they can respect for now. Not verses. I know it is the traditional christian thing to do to bring out the bible and start there...but that does not always work. It only frustrates people. Let them get to know you, your history, why you beleive what you do. Talk to them, answer their questions and answer them in a HYPOTHETICAL way. I have learnt little bits and pieces of the people here, and it's very interesting, no?
AND, always remember that EVERYONE is a sinner, christian or not. And your sin is no less or no greater than theirs. God is good Thundar. You and I know that for sure. Pray a little about different ways to reach people. At some point one needs to ask if what they are doing is getting them anywhere and if the answer is no, then look for different ways.
Oh, and regardless of Urizens intent or wording...it still is an opportunity to think and answer...you won't be shaken if you are firm in your belief.
You make some very valid points. I'll definitely pray about what you suggested. And you passed the test..😉
Re: Re: Re: Would you still Worship Christ if....
Originally posted by Robtard
There isn't a single shread of concrete proof that Jesus was divine, at best it's all hearsay; it all boils down to faith.
Correct. But, let me (kindly) ask you this. When you fall down and get an owie do I exhibit your wounds? No.
Why then do the wounds of Christ appear on his most ardent followers/worshippers? Because he was a nobody like you and me?
Hardly not.
Alos, I'm not trying to start a holy war here. And, I do understand your stance. I'm voicing my belief and what's important to me. 😉
Originally posted by Shakyamunison
The way you truly are inside is how you first see other people. A lier assumes that other people are lying.
That would only hold true if I thought myself as better than anyone else. I know myself to be a sinner like anyone else, and see my salvation as through Christ -- not through what I do.
I think the major problem is with my approach, not with who I think I am. Marcu actually had a good point about the way in which I approach people, which is something that sincerely needs to be thought about.
Originally posted by Thundar
The test of sincerity. Hard to tell if new users are socking, mocking, or are truly being sincere with their responses and questions on these boards. Once again good post, and your points were well made.
*wipes brow*
Glad I passed.
Anyway, the way I see things, especially on a board and not face to face, is that I must first and foremost remember that these are people just like myself. You may notice that I often don't post or respond certain things or TO certain people just yet. The reason for that is that I know that I NEED to get to know them as people first. Their beliefs are sooo secondary for me. What if they were badly hurt by a Christian in their past...or have seen nothing butr hypocrytical Christians growing up? What if they were presented the wrong views on God and Christianity like I was? I NEED to know them as people BEFORE I take a look and discuss their beliefs and mine.
God hung around with regular joe's. Not just believers. He walked among many.
Shaky for instance. I know enough now that I can talk to him about God and where I stand. He can question me and I will answer if I can. I do not pretend to know all. Cause I don't. I know very little. But, him and I can converse with no problems.
It doesn't take much to look and see who these are as REAL people, putting aside their personal beliefs for the time being. Everyone has a story Thundar. I like to hear it and apply. That's all.
Originally posted by Thundar
That would only hold true if I thought myself as better than anyone else. I know myself to be a sinner like anyone else, and see my salvation as through Christ -- not through what I do.I think the major problem is with my approach, not with who I think I am. Marcu actually had a good point about the way in which I approach people, which is something that sincerely needs to be thought about.
My statement has nothing to do with rather you think you are better then anyone else. I was questioning your need to test people. I think the person you are testing is really yourself. However, Marcu point is valid and not in contradiction to my point.
Originally posted by marcu
*wipes brow*Glad I passed.
You better be...😠
Originally posted by marcu
Anyway, the way I see things, especially on a board and not face to face, is that I must first and foremost remember that these are people just like myself. You may notice that I often don't post or respond certain things or TO certain people just yet. The reason for that is that I know that I NEED to get to know them as people first. Their beliefs are sooo secondary for me. What if they were badly hurt by a Christian in their past...or have seen nothing butr hypocrytical Christians growing up? What if they were presented the wrong views on God and Christianity like I was? I NEED to know them as people BEFORE I take a look and discuss their beliefs and mine.God hung around with regular joe's. Not just believers. He walked among many.
Shaky for instance. I know enough now that I can talk to him about God and where I stand. He can question me and I will answer if I can. I do not pretend to know all. Cause I don't. I know very little. But, him and I can converse with no problems.
It doesn't take much to look and see who these are as REAL people, putting aside their personal beliefs for the time being. Everyone has a story Thundar. I like to hear it and apply. That's all.
Well I agree with you for the most part, except I do know all..or at least I think I do..you haven't noticed that yet..😉
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