TPM Qui Gon vs ANH Obiwan

Originally posted by Count Makashi
Good one dartssith, but knowing Subjekt, he will come up with something, something very good.

Uh, joke post?

He cannot counter the argument due to the fact that George Lucas supposedly said "no one in the OT can compete with a PT warrior", and considering Darth Vader was an avid combatant in the OT, it's thusly impossible, as there's no wiggle room in said statement.

Although, I'd like to even see the source of which that originated from, since I'm lead to think you're misinterpreting "we don't see true Jedi fighting in the original trilogy" as every Jedi or Sith in the prequel movies can take characters x and y in the OT.

It was a joke and i don't think every character in the PT can take every in the OT, as a mater of fact, no one from the PT can take Sidious from the OT in the Force.

Did you just figure that out now?

What, when did i ever say that someone could take ROTJ Sidous in the Force, i knew that before. Your a real nut breaker, you know that.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
It was a joke.

Yea, it was a joke, i didn't mean it. Just joking.

Originally posted by Count Makashi
It was a joke and i don't think every character in the PT can take every in the OT, as a mater of fact, no one from the PT can take Sidious from the OT in the Force.

Thats what i said already, why did you just say, the same thing as i did.

You said no one from the PT can take Sidious from the OT in the Force. I add OT too😛

Ohhhhhhh, my bad, soryyyyyyyyyyy. 😛

Originally posted by darthsith19
Lol, how so?

Originally posted by Rampant ox
Lets see you talk your way out of this one Subjekt. 😆

Honestly? Because a stronger case can be made for Vader than for OB1. The very attribute that helped him wtfpwn Dooku have only increased, or at the very least stayed the same. He's even stronger now, and still uses Djem So but now modified to suit his needs and make it a more effective form for him. Other than that...cause I said so. 😛

Originally posted by Advent
Uh, joke post?

He cannot counter the argument due to the fact that George Lucas supposedly said "no one in the OT can compete with a PT warrior", and considering Darth Vader was an avid combatant in the OT, it's thusly impossible, as there's no wiggle room in said statement.

Although, I'd like to even see the source of which that originated from, since I'm lead to think you're misinterpreting "we don't see true Jedi fighting in the original trilogy" as every Jedi or Sith in the prequel movies can take characters x and y in the OT.

To be honest, I've never directly heard that statement made, rather just from the self proclaimed "uber debaters" on these boards. I've heard the statement that "we see how the Jedi were supposed to fight", but honestly, I just used that as a quick means to stop talking about it, due to too busy a schedule to reply in depth. To me, I think it's absurd to entertain the thought that Ben can beat QGJ in a duel, if nothing else, based solely on when we've seen. But being that I have kids and other "responsibilities" I can't just go blow my money on every piece of star wars literature and/or game that exists, just so I can be an "Uber debater" here at wonderful KMC. So yea, I was saying that out of laziness...sue me....

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Honestly? Because a stronger case can be made for Vader than for OB1. The very attribute that helped him wtfpwn Dooku have only increased, or at the very least stayed the same. He's even stronger now, and still uses Djem So but now modified to suit his needs and make it a more effective form for him. Other than that...cause I said so. 😛

Uhhhhh, good one, just as i said.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
Honestly? Because a stronger case can be made for Vader than for OB1.

That's entirely irrelevant, let's assume for the sake of the argument that the quote was really stated by George Lucas. Since you made clear exactly what he said, there would be no way to say that Darth Vader is more powerful than Count Dooku, since "no one in the OT can compete with a PT warrior".

Even though the quote doesn't exist, you'd still be wrong if it did since it would've came from the utmost, highest source of canon, George Lucas himself.

The very attribute that helped him wtfpwn Dooku have only increased, or at the very least stayed the same.

That's just not true. Not only has his skill diminished to the point where it's described as "severely hampering", but his speed isn't nearly up to par with what he had been during the RotS duel. So, that's a rather flawed conclusion to come to.

sue me....

Okay.

Originally posted by Advent
That's entirely irrelevant, let's assume for the sake of the argument that the quote was really stated by George Lucas. Since you made clear exactly what he said, there would be no way to say that Darth Vader is more powerful than Count Dooku, since "no one in the OT can compete with a PT warrior".

Originally posted by Advent
Even though the quote doesn't exist, you'd still be wrong if it did since it would've came from the utmost, highest source of canon, George Lucas himself.

Originally posted by Advent
That's just not true. Not only has his skill diminished to the point where it's described as "severely hampering", but his speed isn't nearly up to par with what he had been during the RotS duel. So, that's a rather flawed conclusion to come to.

Originally posted by Advent
Okay.

Originally posted by Darth Subjekt
If it wasn't clear by the end of the statement, I was kidding overall

Sorry, I don't have my joke sensor equipped.

although I do believe that Vader would win. However, as I'm sure someone of your intelligence can read (no sarcasm) you will see that I said i never directly heard the quote

I know, hence why I said 'for the sake of the argument'. In other words, it's not necessarily meaning that the quote is correct, or anything of the sort, but what you say right below this...

I am also quite aware that if that quote did exist, any and all attempts to argue that point would be futile and would be going against canon.

...here.

Correct me if I'm wrong

I always do.

but speed wasn't mentioned as a factor in his victory over Dooku was it?

"That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster."

I don't see why it would even have to be noted, considering speed plays a substantial role in all duels. It's rather asinine to say that his quickness, which allowed him to overwhelm Count Dooku in conjuncture with his physical strength, and skill, wouldn't have been a deciding factor.

Was it his skill or power that was described as "severely hampering?

His lightsaber dueling ability.

I really don't see your logic possessing any sort of viable reasoning behind it. Yes, Darth Vader can beat Count Dooku, despite the fact his prowess has been lessened to an apparently great extent.

It's pretty stupid, to say the least.

I was not, however, aware of the "severe;y hampering" quote.

Well, you are now.

Not to say i don't believe you, cause i see no reason why you would lie, I just never came across that.

"In other words, the skill and power that Anakin shows as a young man is greater than what we see in the classic films. As Vader, Anakin is more machine than man, and being a half-droid construct has severely hampered his lightsaber prowess." (Star Wars Q & A, Episode VI Lore, Why did Luke beat Vader?).

Correct me if I'm wrong, but speed wasn't mentioned as a factor in his victory over Dooku was it?

I was more curious than anything, and I know if there's info out there that I may not have access to (or even know where to find it) you can typically provide it. It's all good , ma, like i said, i was curious about the quotes and to what they referred, not trying to argue with you. 😉

Originally posted by kiddo44
no, it was more his power and the book emphasized his stamina, unlimited force reserves, it said it took everything Dooku had just to block the swings they were so powerful, and he kept getting stronger, while Dooku was tired.

Seriously, what don't you people get in how speed plays a considerable element in not only that duel, but every duel? It isn't mentioned, therefore it wasn't a factor? That type of logic is just dumb, for lack of a better word.

In general (not addressed to anyone in particular), it's not logical to assume that Darth Vader can take down Count Dooku as he had done in RotS due to the fact his qualities were reduced. He's not as skillful, not as quick, nor as agile, ergo it's completely fallacious to state such things.

Because while important, it's not a deciding factor. Yoda was alot faster than Dooku and Anakin, and couldn't get the job done in twice the time it took Anakin to kill him. You can be strong without being fast and fast without being strong. If he was overpowered, then that's not directly linked to his speed. The statement that said something along the lines of "every block aged him a decade" is testament to the strength behind the blows, not the speed.

I don't recall anyone saying that Vader would beat him as fast as Anakin did, unless said in jest. I just happen to be of the opinion that Vader would win if he could avoid contact with lightning.