Possibly solved the mystery of the compass

Originally posted by lovethemtigers
yep....savvy...explain that to me. I've always felt stupid cuz I can't quite grasp all the things that went on in POTC, I guess cuz I've never analyzed as much as we have DMC. So, that's how she gets locked in that room, Jack does it. Explain to me how that happens. I always wondered about her line "that was Jack Sparrow's doing!"...and also, what was Jack's plan that he suggested to Norrington, when Mulroy tells Murtogg "why don't we do what that Jack Sparrow suggested we do."...and then Norrie says something like "because it was Sparrow that suggested it."...and then when Barbossa says "gents, take a walk"...Jack seems surprised by that...I am so confused on all of this...can you help?

Ha, I can try. From the way I understand it, as punishment for burning his rum, Jack encourages Norrington to try to protect Elizabeth by locking her in the room. He knows this will irritate her because she's Elizabeth and she's no shrinking violet. She wants to be in the thick of it, hence his smug smile when he's rowing out to meet Barbossa. He knows that he's won. Consequently, Elizabeth also knows that it's Jack's hand in it because she understands how his mind works.

I can't exactly recall all of the details of Jack's plan that he suggests to Norrington, and the plan that he suggests to Barbossa. I think the gist of it is, that he wants to get the pirates to lift the curse so that when they row back to the ships to try to take over them, Norrington and his men will "blast the bejezzes out of them" and essentially take them out in one foul swoop.
This is one of the instances when Jack is actually telling Norrington the truth, and the plan is a good one. Norrington doesn't trust Jack, and decides to stay in the boats, rather than returning to his ship.
Meanwhile, Jack attempts to convince Barbossa to follow through with his plan, but Barbossa isn't stupid. He must have suspected something was up, so he told his pirates to "take a walk" affectively sabotaging both Jack and Norrington's plans in one foul swoop.

That's the best I can do in terms of explanation. I'm not entirely sure I understand the whole of those scenes myself.

Originally posted by savvysparrow
Ha, I can try. From the way I understand it, as punishment for burning his rum, Jack encourages Norrington to try to protect Elizabeth by locking her in the room. He knows this will irritate her because she's Elizabeth and she's no shrinking violet. She wants to be in the thick of it, hence his smug smile when he's rowing out to meet Barbossa. He knows that he's won. Consequently, Elizabeth also knows that it's Jack's hand in it because she understands how his mind works.

I can't exactly recall all of the details of Jack's plan that he suggests to Norrington, and the plan that he suggests to Barbossa. I think the gist of it is, that he wants to get the pirates to lift the curse so that when they row back to the ships to try to take over them, Norrington and his men will "blast the bejezzes out of them" and essentially take them out in one foul swoop.
This is one of the instances when Jack is actually telling Norrington the truth, and the plan is a good one. Norrington doesn't trust Jack, and decides to stay in the boats, rather than returning to his ship.
Meanwhile, Jack attempts to convince Barbossa to follow through with his plan, but Barbossa isn't stupid. He must have suspected something was up, so he told his pirates to "take a walk" affectively sabotaging both Jack and Norrington's plans in one foul swoop.

That's the best I can do in terms of explanation. I'm not entirely sure I understand the whole of those scenes myself.

Oh I love it...so that's why Jack has that little smug smile on his lips, he knows she will be totally frustrated locked up in that cabin...he knows she's a lady of action. I don't think Will has learned that yet, but he does in DMC when he sees her dress on the English Ship.

So this kind of foreshadow's Jack's line on the island with the chest when Norrie says "You actually were telling the truth." and Jack responds "I do that quite alot, and yet people are always surprised" - so he was telling Norrie the truth about the plan, but Norrie didn't believe/trust Jack.

I believe that Will's actions of saving Jack at the end of COTBP have unforeseen consequences for him. But I'll get to that later. I want to touch on a few more things before we look at Will from this perspective.

There are some hugely important quotes at the end of COTBP that set up the course of the next films for most of the characters.

One: Sometimes to do the right thing, demands an act of piracy, if piracy itself can be the right thing.

Two: "Sometimes a good decision, if made for the wrong decisions, can be a wrong decision."

Ok, the first quote essentially applies to our three main characters who become pirates because they do the right thing. Jack becomes a pirate because he did the right thing in releasing the slaves he was carrying as cargo. Subsequently he was branded a pirate. Elizabeth becomes a pirate because 1) it was the right thing for her to convince Norrington to turn around and save Will 2) She sorta did the right thing in sacrificing Jack to the Kracken to save the lives of the crew.
Will became a pirate because he did the right thing in saving the life of a man who deserved to be saved. Good, we have an accord about why it is they are pirates.

Governor Swann has a GEM of a quote towards the end of COTBP that really underlines her struggle at the end of DMC, and I think for much of AWE.

"Sometimes a good decision, if made for the wrong reasons, can be a wrong decision."

Do you see why this specifically applies to her choice of killing Jack at the end of DMC? She made a good decision in sacrificing Jack. I believe that at heart, she had the good of the crew in mind when she made that decision. But, the decision was tainted because the kiss was to "drown her guilt and simultaneously slake her lust". So, it was a good decision, but made for the wrong reasons, and subsequently is a WRONG decision.

Savvy, I wish to participate on your analyses but I'm not feeling well.

Good night everyone.

Keep the faith.

i will! bye chikikins!

Last scene..
just watched this..and I don't see where Gov. Swann says that line about the wrong decision.....

Norrington: So, this is where your heart truly lies then.

(Elizabeth just shakes her head yes): It is.

Jack: Well, I'm actually feeling really good about all this. I think we've all arrived at a very special place, eh? Spiritually, economically, gramatically..(something like that) (to Gov. Swann)

Jack: (to Norrie) I want you to know, that I was rooting for you, mate.

Jack: Elizabeth, it would never have worked between us, darling. I'm sorry

Jack: Will, nice hat

Jack: This is the day that you will always remember as the day that you ..(jack falls over wall)

Britishman: Idiot, he has nowhere to go but back to the noose.

what's your course of action,
sir?

Gov. Swann: Perhaps on the rare occasion, persuing the right course demands an act of piracy. Piracy itself can be the right course.

Norrington: Mr. Turner. This is a beautiful sword. I would expect the man who made it to show the same amount of care and devotion in every aspect of his life"

Britishman: Commodore what about sparrow.

Norrington: Oh I think we can afford to give him one day's head start.

Gov. Swann: So, this is the path you've chosen. After all, he is a blacksmith

Elizabeth: No, he's a pirate.

is that quote from the script and didn't make the final cut? Perhaps?

No, it's from the scene where Elizabeth is trapped in the cabin. He's talking about her decision to marry Norrington. But it's still important because the writers drew from COTBP to write the rest of the films.

Originally posted by Minie Mina
Savvy, I wish to participate on your analyses but I'm not feeling well.

Good night everyone.

Keep the faith.

Sad Mina! Feel better soon!!

Ok, now let's talk about Will for two seconds. As much as most Sparrabethers wish he'd fall of the edge of the planet, we can't ignore that he's part of the story too.

Remember that I'm looking at the whole of the story from the perspective of there was never a triangle.

It's my belief from the there-was-never-a-triangle-perspective that COTBP serves as an introduction to the characters and to the themes of the pirates series. It's also my belief that Will's fate and perhaps the ending of AWE are foreshadowed from the opening of COTBP.

Elizabeth tells Will that she is watching over him the day that they met. And that is what they do for each other and my suspicion is what they'll continue to do for each other in the final frames of AWE. (Think that the Captain of the Dutchman has to have a living heart, and he'll probably have to bury it somewhere safe. Who better to watch over it than the girl who has always looked after you?) It's a theory.

COTBP essentially sets up this meeting and potential attraction between Jack and Elizabeth I'm not going to get into the struggle of romantic versus real love, etc etc, because that is where most of the arguments fall flat. All it does is leave open this possibility. They're attracted to each other, but Jack steps aside because it seems from every angle that Elizabeth only has eyes for Will. But does she? If you look at COTBP from the there is no triangle perspective, Elizabeth's action at the end of the film are as much for BOTH men as they are solely for Will. The only way that she can save Jack's life is if she protects Will's. So, she pretends to faint, and she steps to Will's side when they are surrounded by guards to save them both. So, whoever said that her interest in Jack in DMC comes out of nowhere isn't doing their homework.

Then, interestingly enough, Jack uses Elizabeth's distraction again to make his escape. He also tells her "Elizabeth, it would have never have worked between us darling, I'm sorry." Which, is the infamous line repeated by Elizabeth to Jack in AWE. (If you think of Elizabeth's repeating that line as a part of the same chess game sequence between them, it makes a whole lot more sense. Clearly, she's never forgotten their first parting.)

It is Will's actions, and the consequences of his actions at the end of COTBP that define his fate and essentially divide him from any happiness with Elizabeth.
Bootstrap Bill has an amazing line at the beginning of DMC that I think defines Will's actions at the end of COTBP and his fate.
Bootstrap says: "I'm sorry for my part in the mutiny against you. I stood up for you, everything went wrong after that."

Where does that sound familiar? That's right, Will's actions in COTBP. He stands up for Jack, calling him a good man and calling out his fate: he says something like, if all my actions have done is earn another pair of boots on the gallows, then so be it. At least my conscience will be clear.

See how father and son's fate mirror each other? Even down to the boots. Bootstrap stood up for Jack and was sent to the depths, Will stood up for Jack and will eventually and regrettably be sent to his doom.

Gov. Swann: Perhaps on the rare occasion, persuing the right course demands an act of piracy. Piracy itself can be the right course.

So, this is the gist of the entire trilogy....persuing the right course demands an act of piracy, and piracy itself can be the right course....

So, when Elizabeth decides to chain Jack to the mast and commits an act of piracy, she is in fact doing the right thing by saving the lives of the others.....

Will freeing Jack at the end of COTBP is an act of piracy, but it's the right decision because Jack is a good man....although Gov. Swann is not fond of Jack, he must admit that the Pirate has saved his daughter's life on more than one occaision...three to be exact by the end of the first movie....

the following snippet spoiler scene kind of negates the fact that has thus far been established as to what the compass points to...material things only? then what of this...here, for Beckett, it is pointing to jack, cuz he wants Jack dead, most in this world....

BECKETT
Jack, remember I have this wonderful compass that points to whatever I want.

JACK
Points to what you want MOST and that’s not the brethren court is it???

BECKETT
No?? Then what is, Jack?

JACK
Me (long beat) dead...

He gestures to the compass.

JACK (cont.)
Try it.

Beckett opens the compass, from his reaction, it points to Jack. Jack scuttles sideways, from beckett’s reaction, the needle follows him.

Isn't it interesting that he refers to Jack as Jack, first name basis, you would think it would be Sparrow or Mr. Sparrow, but not Jack...too much familiarity to just be that he was mad cuz jack worked for him and betrayed him by freeing the slaves...

Ha, yeah. I was going to bring that up tomorrow. I can be wrong from time to time. This may in fact prove that I am wrong. I want to re-tackle the compass and finish off the line of thought with the other way of looking at the movies: There is a love triangle, but it's resolved by the end of DMC. That's what's on my agenda for tomorrow. For now, I think I will join Chiki in saying good night.

Good hunting ladies!

goodnight, savvysparrow...look forward to seeing what you come up with....arggg..this trilogy is driving me insane..

Wait, wait, wait. The compass DOES NOT point to material objects. This scene in AWE clearly states the compass is pointing to Jack. Maybe Jack's body is material, but can we really say people are material objects? I know there is no way the compass can point to love or peace or charity or any abstract, but this proves it can point to people because you want people. If it can point to a person Beckett would like to see dead, then it can certainly point to a person you want to be with.

I've convinced myself so I'd like to bounce off Chiki for a moment and talk about Will in COTBP. This is really the movie that is from his point of view. We see him the most, his character develops the most, and he is the one that learns a fact that he will remember for the rest of the series: his father is alive and an ally to Jack.
So from the perspective that Liz and Jack were always meant to be the couple and there is no triangle, let's look at the W/E moments because they are few and far between.

Will and Liz meet as children: Good set up, implies they at least stayed friends. Liz takes his medallion. This bugged me. Obviously a year later or so, there would be no harm in giving it back to him, so why did she keep it all that time? Pirate nature.

Will and Liz meet up before Norrington's promotion: Will looks absolutely starstruck when she comes down the stairs looking every inch like some Colonial beauty queen. She's happy to see him and against the rules of etiquette, tells him she dreamt about him. He's uncomfortable but clearly pleased and she insists he call her Elizabeth. You can see her disappointment when he won't. Is this romantic? Maybe. But if I knew someone and considered them a friend for a long time, following the rules of "Miss Swann" and "Mr. Turner" keep a rift between them. She would like to be a little closer and he's not getting that at all.

Liz sees Will as she's being dragged away: Again, not a romantic scene because anyone would call out for anyone here. Poor Will gets knocked out. There's a lot of that going on in this trilogy.

Will and Liz escape Barbossa and he bandages her: This is an interesting scene. From what I've heard, it was meant to be hotter with them making out and Liz pressed up against the wall. But that's not canon. This is their first real conversation and they seem to be making a breakthrough in their relationship and they do almost kiss but Liz jerks her head back at the last minute like she's afraid of him and gives him the medallion. He's a little mad at her but gets over it because there's a battle to be had. While having a guy lick your wounds is kind of sexy, there is no hint that Will is a "pirate" except that he teamed up with Jack briefly. Liz sincerely feels bad she never gave the medallion back to Will and that's the end of their little scene. No closure, no initiation of a relationship.

Liz is captured, Will barters for freedom: This is the hysterical "She goes free" scene where Will reveals himself as Bootstrap's son. Not a romantic moment, but a plot-filled one.

Liz goes back to help Will and Jack after freeing the crew: Much has happened before this. Liz is upset with the crew and goes back by herself to help. This should have clued Will in that she's more than meets the eye, which I think he gets to some degree because the battle does show they work well together and that she's brave. The only "romantic" part occurs at the end where she looks like she wants a kiss and Will says her fiance (Norrington) is waiting for her. She again looks disappointed and Jack makes fun of him. We next see the three of them in a longboat. This could be a romantic moment, but once again it is ruined by one of the characters pulling out.

Last scene: Liz seems a little irked with Will when he approaches them, probably because she sees him as a lost cause, but he tells her he loves her and she gets what's about to happen. She stands with him between the officers and Jack and she and Will share a stiff, sunset kiss. Okay, how did she get Will was a pirate. I'm sorry, but the director or Keira or whoever really screwed up in having her hold Will's hat. It makes her stiff and look like she didn't really want a kiss there. We go from that to them almost marrying?

But if Jack can compare Will's desire for Elizabeth to a person's desire for silver and gold, then a person must be a material object and not that it is a bad thing, just scientific fact. Like a piece of eight, Elizabeth is made up of atoms, can be touched, smelled, tasted and physically manipulated i.e. you can braid her hair.

"Not all treassure are silver and gold, mate."

Originally posted by Ericadawn
But if Jack can compare Will's desire for Elizabeth to a person's desire for silver and gold, then a person must be a material object and not that it is a bad thing, just scientific fact. Like a piece of eight, Elizabeth is made up of atoms, can be touched, smelled, tasted and physically manipulated i.e. you can braid her hair.

Ha, nice! I agree. I was thinking about the whole thing in Beckett's office and the compass.

I whole heartedly admit that I can be wrong about my interpretation with the compass. I'm just taking what Ted said and trying to make it work.

With that in mind, notice some things about the Beckett office scene. First, notice that Jack corrects Beckett's wording about the function of the compass in the same way that he corrected Elizabeth's.

Second, I think the way that the person holding the compass views the world and the people in it says a lot about how the compass will work.

To Beckett, life is cheap and the people in it are "cargo" i.e. material objects.

Also, look at Beckett's philosophy of life.

"No doubt, your father has discovered that loyalty is no longer the currency of the realm.
I'm afraid that currency is the currency of the realm."

It's all about money for Beckett, and purchasing life or in this instance death implies that people are objects to him.

Beckett is a hungry buisness man. He believes that if you like it, then you can buy it. Including people.