Possibly solved the mystery of the compass

Started by Surreal_4410 pages

Ok, I took a break from the forum. I come back, and I see that more fun stuff has been put up. I had to think about whether or not to respond to any of it, but it's not in my nature to let a good debate go by. Willo, I hope you don't mind, but I shall commence to counter your points and add a few of my own. 😄

One writer said that there was never a love triangle, the other has said that the triangle has been resolved by the end of DMC.

Therefore, it is logical to conclude that the ending will be W/E. Why?

aside from the beginning, where she protects Will from Norrington, what else of Elizabeth's actions show how she feels about Will? I'm covering Elizabeth's actions because we've already covered that Will would die for her.

-- Talking about the proposal with the maid. Obviously the maid knows that Elizabeth likes Will. How could she know this, unless there has been interaction between them before, or unless Elizabeth has spoken before (and probably often) of Will.

-- Taking Will's name when she goes aboard the Pearl. The writers have even said this is her testing the name out, like how girls doodle out "Mrs. Will Turner" into their notebooks.

-- Her refusal to tell Barbossa Will's name or where he is located. She is not going to give up Will. Would you do that for just a crush? Would you square off with an undead pirate and his crew just for some person you barely know?

--Elizabeth drops everything in the middle of battle to try to free Will from below-decks. She is nearly killed because she blocks everything out for Will.

-- Watch her face after the Interceptor blows up. She is utterly, absolutely devestated. Watch her reaction to Barbossa when she thinks Will is dead. Watch her face when Will shows up.

-- Elizabeth's desperate attempt to get off the island. She risked both herself and Jack to burn the rum, the food, the shade...to go after Will.

-- Elizabeth agrees to marry James...to save Will.

-- Elizabeth leaves the Dauntless, and frees the crew of the Pearl. Why? Not because she really likes them; she needs their help...to save Will.

-- She distracts Norrington so that Will can do what he needs to in order to save Jack.

-- She stands in between James and Will. Then, she is concerned when James seems to be calling Will out.

-- She kisses Will. I never saw a problem with the kiss, and after watching it numerous times over today, I still don't. It's a slow, gentle, romantic kiss. I'm not sure at all how else it should have been played, because anything else would have been grossly out of place.

It really feels more like this criticism is meant to undermine the W/E ship simply because there is very little else you could do to attack it. No offence, Willo. I just can't see a problem with the kiss that makes you dislike it so much, except that it's W/E and not J/E.

Need more?

In DMC, Elizabeth:

-- Wants to marry Will.

-- Runs away from her father to go warn Will that Beckett is going to try to kill him. ( I would mention the papers here as well, but everyone gets huffy on the matter if Liz is just taking them for herself. 😛 )

-- Commandeers a ship to go to Tortuga, because she knows that's where Will went first.

-- Goes to Jack and says she wants to find the man she loves. Then she demands to know where Will is. It is in this moment that you can hear how tired she is, how drained. All she wants is to find Will. She WANTS Will.

-- She allows herself to want the chest most in the world and uses the compass thusly. It wavers only once; on the Pearl. The writers have even stated that on the beach, it never stops pointing to the chest, she just can't figure out where it is.

-- She lights up when she sees Will. She throws her arms around him and hugs him tight. Then she kisses him and clings to him. Relief, joy, complete happiness...that is what she shows in that scene. Then she remains connected to Will, until she finds out Jack betrayed Will.

-- She runs to Will when Norrington throws him down. She's obviously worried about him, but then she gets mad because he asks her to guard the chest when she feels that there are other important issues at hand.

-- Even though she's annoyed with Will, she goes after the chest, because Will asked her to guard it. She certainly didn't need it, so why would she even bother with it?

-- She sees Will slumped over the boat, and she immediately forgets the battle (again) in order to try to revive him. Jack has to remind her that they're in dire straights, otherwise she would have been totally focused on Will.

-- She is still beside Will when he wakes up on the Pearl. The writers said a good amount of time has passed, so she's probably been beside him the whole time. Then when he wakes up she gently eases his head off the deck, touches his forehead where he has that scar from DJ's crew, and she helps him to stand.

-- She will NOT shoot Will. She won't do it. She knows she should, he's even telling her that she should, but she won't do it. She can't do it. Jack has to do it for her, and I think that's part of why she's clinging onto him so much; because if it goes badly, she'll need someone to hold onto while her world is destroyed.

-- She kisses another man and chains him up -- to save Will.

Is that enough? Almost everything she does is for Will. Sure, she flirted with Jack...but does flirting mean that everything she feels for Will is gone? Obviously not, since she is willing to risk everything to save him.

The last example I have is from At World's End. It could be a good-bye kiss, but man...they are in the middle of a battle, they could die at any second, the ship is being pummelled by waves and they forget about everything to kiss.

That's the third time they've kissed and basically ignored everything happening around them. I cannot honestly figure out how anyone could say that Elizabeth has no feelings for Will, when it seems quite obvious that she does.

And if it is only that she promised to watch over him...don't you think she went to quite a few extremes in order to fulfill that particular vow?

No, when the writer says that there is no love triangle, what he's saying is that there is no Jack and Elizabeth.

This concludes this part of my long-winded essay. Part two will be up later, wherein I shall discuss J/E and their relationship, and how it does not remotely add up to love (at least on Elizabeth's part).

There you are! I was wondering when you'd join in the fun.

PS---Of course the clues can also add up to W/E. That's the obvious story in the 'there is no triangle theory.' I actually meant to write that as a pre-curser to the discussions.

This is just to experiment and see if the same applies to the J/E things. So easy goes the shipping war ladies. 🙂

Hehehe. I couldn't resist. Debate = Surreal's treasure. 😛

Aa! I had to put on me glasses! *shakes fists*

Well here's what TnT said about the love triangle:

1. There is no triangle, unless you are referring to the thing Elizabeth wanted most at one point being the chest, and at another point being Jack.

2. At no time did Jack was wibbling about Elizabeth, or vice-versa.

3. If you think Jack using Will as leverage to serve his own interests, or Will taking action against Jack to save a loved one, is a perversion of their relationship in the first movie, then that's what you think.

4. Jack was never enamored of his ship; he was and is enamored of what his ship represents: freedom. And, of course, as it turned out the very thing he wanted so much he was willing to make a deal with the devil to get, has come to represent either a hundred years of servitude (and eventual loss of identity) or death.

There never was, and if we want to add that there was ever a love triangle, then it's been resolved by the end of DMC. But It's not a W/E like you hoped, though, it is a good theory.

But Elizabeth made her choice in rescuing Jack by the end of DMC. If it was her choice to stay with Will and that's that, well problem solved.

But I'm a bit tired of the shippy wars. It's only a month away.

Originally posted by Surreal_44
Hehehe. I couldn't resist. Debate = Surreal's treasure. 😛

And naturally, whose to argue with you? You're a fiercesome debator. I was cowering in the shadows waiting for you to swoop down with W/E tallons.

But Mina is right, the movie is only a month away, and the novelization is only seven days away. So, we could broker a peace deal.

OMG! I'm so excited about your siggy, savvy lol.

HA, Mina. You're such a tease!!!

The Compass points to the thing the person holding wants most in the world. If dropped, it will continue pointing to where it was pointing before it was dropped.

http://www.wordplayer.com/forums/moviesarc07/index.cgi?read=86116

So the scene on the island in which Elizabeth throws down the compass in frustration illustrates further the idea that the compass was pointing to the chest the whole time.

That isn't a bad thing though. 🙂

Exactly. I think it's great news.

She always thought that the compass was pointing to Jack the whole time, when in reality, it was pointing to the chest. And the compass is still in the posession of that person even on the ground untill someone else takes posession of it.

All that was her feelings alone. The compass never pointed to the PERSON whom she want the most, it was all feeling.

I love it.

Sparrabeth forever!!!!

okay tnt said it never pointed to Jack and it was the thought that she thought it pointed to him, now we figuired out that the compass points to material objects, so it was her mind thinking that.

also for shipping the toy said is it love or hate between j/e it didn't say just freinds and they obviosly don't hate each other it is exactly the opposite!!!

i can't wait for the movie!!!

Mina: Where is the quote that says that there is no love triangle unless you count the compass and where it points? I don't recall the writers ever saying that. 😉

At any rate, this is not a war, it is a simple disagreement that we have, which we politely debate back and forth. 😉 If you all are going to continue on discussing J/E, I figure I ought to make sure W/E get their fair share of coverage.

True enough, Elizabeth believes the compass might be pointing at Jack, and what does she do about it? Methinks her actions are those of a woman who is mightily unhappy.

Remember, the compass doesn't say WHY it points at something; it points to whatever it is you want most because in that second, you want that thing the most. And, it can change.

Besides, if you want to throw quotes around, the dreaded waffle statement is translated this way:

Delicious Meal = Will, Interesting Waffle = Jack.

Elizabeth wants the delicious meal but was forced to wait. She found an interesting waffle and was tempted by it, but she still wants the delicious meal.

So er...unless they have Elizabeth vastly change her feelings for Will, then I would still say W/E end up together.

Now, why don't J/E work as a canon couple? (And yes, I am prepared to be wrong. 😄 It's the movies, anything can happen. 😉 )

Well, you'll have to wait, because I'm totally out of time. I'll post my explanation later. 😄

I'll get your link, Surreal.

Let's stop the shippy dispute. We all agreed on not to argue because it's been resolved 🙂.

We are discussing better things in the spoiler discussion thread with savvy. Join us 😄

I want to preface this with the statement that I might very well be wrong. I don't want you all to be mislead by my thinking and end up disappointed in terms of how this all resolves. You can't take my word, or even Surreal's word for truth until we see the movie and find out one way or another.

Actually, the whole waffle quote is in reference to the compass, and where it was pointing, was it not?

So let's examine the waffle vs delicious meal claims. Ted has said specifically that the compass points to material items. So, that being said: the interpretation.

Waffle=Jack

Delicious Meal= The Chest of Davy Jones

Jack offers a distraction from her mission, which is to find the chest of Davy Jones. (The compass does not point to intangible items i.e. saving Will. That's a quote from the writers too, I'll find it later.)

She's distracted by Jack because she believes the compass is pointing to him, rather than at the chest, when in fact, it's been pointing to the chest the entire time. So, again, the question still remains, why does she think it's pointing at Jack, unless she's looking for an excuse to test her feelings.

Here you go, Surreal:
http://www.wordplayer.com/forums/moviesarc07/index.cgi?read=85939

One more quote from the writers on the compass. This is from Terry.

Not really. There is only one way that the compass can properly work. The movie unfortunately wasn't shot or cut in such a way that is consistent with the one way the compass can work. That's the source of disagrement; how to best interpret what is essentially a mistake.

http://www.wordplayer.com/forums/moviesarc07/index.cgi?read=92808

The question is, whose mistake? I've always interpreted that to mean the film makers, but now I'm not so sure.

Originally posted by savvysparrow
No, it's from the scene where Elizabeth is trapped in the cabin. He's talking about her decision to marry Norrington. But it's still important because the writers drew from COTBP to write the rest of the films.

oh...goes off to watch that scene...so he was refering to her decision to marry Norrington for all the wrong reasons...I remember that now....

uhum. That's the scene where Liz was escaping from the window.

Why, it's almost as if Jack claimed the thing he wanted most in the world at the eventual cost of his own freedom. Hm ... I wonder if that idea might be relevant to some other part of the movie? Reflected, refracted and explored throughout the movie, even? Demonstrated in action and dialogue, or even overtly referenced at points?

Terry - on wordplayer.

so, what do ya'll make of this....Why, it's almost as if Jack claimed the thing he wanted most in the world at the eventual cost of his freedom.....

So, Jack has wanted the Pearl and freedom, but he made a deal with Davy and somehow knew that in 13 years he would have to pay up...then it says.....I wonder if that idea might be relevant to some other part of the movie? Reflected, refracted and explored throughout the movie, even? Demonstrated in action and dialogue, or even overtly referenced at points?

What other part...what else does he claim that he wants most at the cost of his own freedom, eh? There he was floating in a longboat, headed for land and safety, but then we see him look at his compass and viola, there he is on the Pearl taking the rifle and firing it with Elizabeth clinging to his leg....his come to claim what he wants most in this world, he gets his reward for being a good man and doing the right thing, but then sacrifices his freedom, because he is chained to the mast and must face the Kracken..and there is no doubt that Jack's attraction to Elizabeth is explored, reflected and retracted throughout the movie and it's most defintely demonstrated through action and dialogue and overtly referenced at points...

I find is so fascinating the writers leave the Jack/Will relationship solely up to us. "If you think they did these things for these reasons, then that is what you think." That's such an interesting way of phrasing it. You know if they didn't care, they would have just said nothing.

I'm not going to start shipping, but I do have a compass question. If it did not play out in the film the way the writers wanted it, who changed it? Gore? I would think if the compass was so important, which it is for the movie, they would have all had a sit-down meeting to make sure everyone was on the same page. Even though I started this whole thread, I believe the simple truth of it, "it points to what you want most." That's not your heart's desire, but what you want most at that moment. What you want can be what you've wanted your whole life, a few years, a few hours, or a split second. I do understand the waffle analogy, but honestly, it is ultimately the fault of the cast and crew of DMC for making it so confusing. They can't blame fans for wanting to get to the bottom of it.

^^Exactly....if they didn't want us to interpret things the way we have then maybe they should have played it out differently, kept certains lines out...

like for instance, Beckett..
he should have just said "a marraige interrupted".and stopped at that.

Keira shouldn't have made Elizabeth look so smitten in almost every scene she has with Jack...and Johnny shouldn't have made jack look so in love and manly and sober in that final scene aboard the Pearl....

Keira and Johnny shouldn't have made that kiss so smoking hot...dangit, I'm sorry I just get so caught up it...but I'm not shipping...i'm just stating what I saw in the scene...no war intended...