Originally posted by Darth Sexy
Notice how I deleted everything for the sake of saving you from further embarassment. Usually I would find your posts and stupidity funny but it's just getting sad for you. But please, continue making a fool out of yourself instaed of conceding an argument.
*Yawn*
You don't want to get owned again, its ok. Why the hell would I concede to you, you are by far one of the worst debaters on this forum. You've committed fallacy after fallacy, you haven't proved a thing, I've more then proved my point, one of your "heroes" Escape disagrees with you. And yet you still put up this little act of false bravado LOL.
I recommend you visit this site:
Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
*Yawn*You don't want to get owned again, its ok. Why the hell would I concede to you, you are by far one of the worst debaters on this forum. You've committed fallacy after fallacy, you haven't proved a thing, I've more then proved my point, one of your "heroes" Escape disagrees with you. And yet you still put up this little act of false bravado LOL.
I recommend you visit this site:
www.hop.com/ [/B]
When was I owned the first time? I believe you're 0-2 against me. And according to the best debaters(escape, Advent), I'm pretty damn good so that leaves you back at square one, being a joke.. Stop lying to yourself and stop embarassing yourself..
Btw, if you really were yawning, you wouldn't waste everyone's time and bandwidth with your incessant stupidity.
Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Sure buddy..your one of the best here..your so awesome..even though..you can't debate for shit..and just got your ass handed to you..on a silver platter.. [/B]
How cute, more denial after getting pwned. Now I suspect you're going to repeat everything I've said back to me. It must suck being a piss poor debater always lying to yourself huh Betty?
Originally posted by Darth Sexy
How cute, more denial after getting pwned. Now I suspect you're going to repeat everything I've said back to me. It must suck being a piss poor debater always lying to yourself huh Betty?
Not really, cause anyone with a brain (not you) can see I just took a shit on you and your "argument" I'm done, I've more then proved my point whether you accept it or not, I don't care.
Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
Not really, cause anyone with a brain (not you) can see I just took a shit on you and your "argument" I'm done, I've more then proved my point whether you accept it or not, I don't care. [/B]
Of course you're done, you were done pages ago. Now if you're done accept being a moron and stop posting, it's pretty sad now. Apparently anyone with a brain doesn't include you because if you had any common sense, you would have stopped posting yesterday.
Excuse me, Gentlemen but I have to intervent in your so called debate.
Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
So we need to be spoon feed information for it to be true, whats the definition of a prodigy in the Star Wars universe? Some one who learns things very quickly, what does the Exile do? She learns and becomes adept with: Ataru, Juyo, Niman, Shien, Jar Kari, and Soresu and in minutes. Thus the Exile = prodigy.
You, sir, are an idiot. Plain and simple.
You are referring to something that is determined via gameplay. In case you didn't notice it: If you do play the game as Counselar, you won't learn all lightsaber styles but instead receive training in the so called "force forms".
But even estimating you did choose the option that allows you to learn all seven forms: How good do you think somebody can learn a style within some minutes of training (or for the sake of an argument in a single practice session) ?
Using one little bit of common sense or logical reasoning should actually tell you that this option just exists for the sake of gameplay experience. Same with dual wielding lightsabers (aka Jar'Kai) or the Stealth Mode. That are game features.
For a debate you have to apply at least some common sense. The Exile might have learned form I (basical training) and I would suggest knowledge of another form (possibly Makashi) or even two (adding Soresu against blaster wielding opponents). That's exactly as far as it goes for a Jedi Counselar. But everything beyond that is pretty much a stupid suggestion.
Even outright prodegies in the lightsaber fighting department (be it Luke Skywalker or Nomi Sunrider for the sake of that debate) weren't able to instantly master forms. Mace Windu took years to develop and master his Vaapad and he was one of the most gifted persons in the lightsaber department. People like Kas'im did dedicate their entire lives to master all forms. Somebody like Kenobi (who's an above average lightsaber duellist) did need more than a decade to master a single form.
Yet you really want to suggest that the Exile should have been able to learn or even master something as complex as lightsaber forms in a time span of minutes ? You did notice that every single form comes with a complete philosophy, different stances and movement patterns aside from a certain state of mind ? If anything, the Exile might have learned to apply one or two moves from a single technique and implement that in her lightsaber style, like Quinlan Vos did with Vaapad after seeing it in action. But more is hardly possible.
And even IF we waste our time by estimating that this rather stupid assertion is actually correct. What would that proof ? As Bane is the topic of this thread: With mastery of a single form (Djem So) he was able to pratically defeat Kas'im in lightsaber combat who learned all seven. Obviously knowing all forms of lightsaber combat doesn't mean much, eh ?
Back to the topic: Luke tools Bane and Krayt. Badly.
Nai, I swear down you used the whole 'Exile mastered multiple forms' argument against me one time. Oh and BTW, Nomi Sunrider wielded her saber like a Master the very first time she picked one up, which is as good as instantly mastering forms, so it's not impossible for the Exile to have done the same. BTW, I'd love to see how you formed that conclusion, considering Bane himself is a match for Luke, as is Krayt.
Excuse me, but your arguments for Krayt don't hold up at all. Argue Bane if you want, but trying to prove that Krayt is a "match" for Luke is only going to elicit a bunch of laughs from the rest of us, and I'm not saying this to insult you or be rude, but the bias has a limit where it goes from "barely tolerable" to "stupid" and you're toeing the line.
Right, because I'm totally biased towards Krayt. 🙄
The fact is, when you have people like Lumiya being made a match for Luke (granted under extremely advantageous circumstances), it's not that hard to believe that someone with centuries worth of experience, training and learning under the ways of the force, saber resistant armour, and the ability to tool 6 powerful force users with a saber couldn't possibly give Luke a hard time.
Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
Nai, I swear down you used the whole 'Exile mastered multiple forms' argument against me one time.
Since you happen to be a stupid liar, let my comment on this be "No. Idiot."
Oh and BTW, Nomi Sunrider wielded her saber like a Master the very first time she picked one up, which is as good as instantly mastering forms, so it's not impossible for the Exile to have done the same.
In short: No.
Nomi Sunrider, in case you didn't notice, was married to a Jedi Knight. She could have watched him training / fighting and remembered a lot of his movements. Then she picked up the weapon and essentially used her memory. Yet, she still didn't have an exact idea what to do with the weapon, and indeed she refrains from using it again for a pretty damn long time.
Still every (and yes, I mean every) trained lightsaber duellist would have tooled her because mastery of a style, like Mace Windu descripes his Vaapad in the ROTS novel, basically means that a Jedi can leave the fighting to his body without having to think about it any longer. And that was clearly NOT the case with Nomi when she picked up her weapon.
BTW, I'd love to see how you formed that conclusion, considering Bane himself is a match for Luke, as is Krayt.
a) Luke can make himself completely invisible and unsenseable via the force while remaining able to do what he want.
b) He can create loops in the force (as he did to turn an entire planet invisible) meaning he can directly manipulate the force to do something he wants. Means he does actualy have direct access to an infinite amount of force energy which is enough to tear every opponent apart.
c) In lightsaber combat he slaughtered through entire armies of enemies, during the NJO series even some that were equipped with lightsaber resistant armour and weaponary. Without having many problems.
I'd really like to see how you reached the conclusion that either Bane or Krayt are a match for Luke. In force combat point "b" is pretty much enough to destroy them. In lightsaber combat I'd really like to see how Krayt and Bane are going to stop somebody who can apparently utilize his offhand as well as all other NJO members can fight with their main-hand, move with speed that makes him appear like a nice blur to other Jedi (namely Jacen and Jaina in TUF) and is obviously able of cutting down opponents wearing lightsaber resistant armor with a single strike.
You are referring to something that is determined via gameplay. In case you didn't notice it: If you do play the game as Counselar, you won't learn all lightsaber styles but instead receive training in the so called "force forms".But even estimating you did choose the option that allows you to learn all seven forms: How good do you think somebody can learn a style within some minutes of training (or for the sake of an argument in a single practice session) ?
Using one little bit of common sense or logical reasoning should actually tell you that this option just exists for the sake of gameplay experience. Same with dual wielding lightsabers (aka Jar'Kai) or the Stealth Mode. That are game features.
For a debate you have to apply at least some common sense. The Exile might have learned form I (basical training) and I would suggest knowledge of another form (possibly Makashi) or even two (adding Soresu against blaster wielding opponents). That's exactly as far as it goes for a Jedi Counselar. But everything beyond that is pretty much a stupid suggestion.
Even outright prodegies in the lightsaber fighting department (be it Luke Skywalker or Nomi Sunrider for the sake of that debate) weren't able to instantly master forms. Mace Windu took years to develop and master his Vaapad and he was one of the most gifted persons in the lightsaber department. People like Kas'im did dedicate their entire lives to master all forms. Somebody like Kenobi (who's an above average lightsaber duellist) did need more than a decade to master a single form.
Yet you really want to suggest that the Exile should have been able to learn or even master something as complex as lightsaber forms in a time span of minutes ? You did notice that every single form comes with a complete philosophy, different stances and movement patterns aside from a certain state of mind ? If anything, the Exile might have learned to apply one or two moves from a single technique and implement that in her lightsaber style, like Quinlan Vos did with Vaapad after seeing it in action. But more is hardly possible.
And even IF we waste our time by estimating that this rather stupid assertion is actually correct. What would that proof ? As Bane is the topic of this thread: With mastery of a single form (Djem So) he was able to pratically defeat Kas'im in lightsaber combat who learned all seven. Obviously knowing all forms of lightsaber combat doesn't mean much, eh?
Now you typed that novel and didn't realize I was:
A. Being sarcastic.
I've already said, in this very topic that:
B. "No, she learned them, it never says she mastered them, the most I'd rank her is adept at the 6 forms."
C. The text in KOTOR the comic says Nomi wield her saber like a master. And makes no mention of the extra training you claim she needed, in the lightsaber category.
D. My point was the Exile's rate of learning regardless of what you choose was remarkable, and no matter what archetype you play as you still get the same quotes from the masters noting your extremely impressive learning rate. Meaning she still learns and becomes adept with these forms mid duel, and if she were to face Ulic she'd do the same thing to him.
As thats what allowed her to beat Kavar, if you choose that path(yes you can kill the masters and STILL get the canon LS ending) she uses Juyo mid duel and beats a master of it.
Finally...
E. Nomi wields it like a master when she first touches a saber, I fail to see how its sooo unfathomable for the Exile to do the same.
If your going to interrupt in a debate at least know what the hell your talking about.
Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
B. "No, she learned them, it never says she mastered them, the most I'd rank her is adept at the 6 forms."
C. The text in KOTOR the comic says Nomi wield her saber like a master. And makes no mention of the extra training you claim she needed, in the lightsaber category.
D. My point was the Exile's rate of learning regardless of what you choose was remarkable, and no matter what archetype you play as you still get the same quotes from the masters noting your extremely impressive learning rate. Meaning she still learns and becomes adept with these forms mid duel, and if she were to face Ulic she'd do the same thing to him.
If your going to interrupt in a debate at least know what the hell your talking about. [/B]
Since your argument was defeated, I'll continue from where Nai left off. Being adept at 6 forms means she mastered them to a degree which is hardly the case. Try again.
No, she learned them, it never says she mastered them, the most I'd rank her is adept at the 6 forms."
Nice job at reading though.
As Nai said, her husband was a Jedi knight. Not to mention what does it mean to wield your saber like a master? Does it mean she knows all 7 forms? What...
Who was so pathetic that he was killed by random thugs, now if he is a lightsaber master then wow just wow. In that case she's going by what she saw him doing ie: her memory. This guy is can perform like a master? LOL. Nice job at reading though.
No, your point was based on retarded gameplay mechanics. I made the analogy of how your logic states that the Exile also learned force storm and force drain or whatever gameplay allowed.. She doesn't stand a chance against Ulic, quit lying to yourself.
And I..made an analogy how..if it was done or said in a cutscene..it'd be true..Nice job at reading though
I'm pretty sure Nai knows what he's talking about seeing as how he's probably the most knowledgable debater on these forums. Meanwhile you can't shut up with your ridiculous stupidity.
Suck his dick all you like doesn't bother me one way or the other.
Originally posted by xxXAcStylesXxx
No, she learned them, it never says she mastered them, the most I'd rank her is adept at the 6 forms."Nice job at reading though.
Who was so pathetic that he was killed by random thugs, now if he is a lightsaber master then wow just wow. In that case she's going by what she saw him doing ie: her memory. This guy is can perform like a master? LOL. Nice job at reading though.
And I..made an analogy how..if it was done or said in a cutscene..it'd be true..Nice job at reading though
Suck his dick all you like doesn't bother me one way or the other. [/B]
Since you happen to be a stupid liar, let my comment on this be "No. Idiot."
Yes you did, it was when we were discussing Kas'im, and you brought up all these people who had mastered multiple forms, and if memory serves me correctly, those people were Yoda, Mace Windu, Obi-Wan Kenobi, Tulak Hord and indeed The Exile (might respark your memory). But whatever, continue with these not so witty retorts as you please.
In short: No.
Nomi Sunrider, in case you didn't notice, was married to a Jedi Knight. She could have watched him training / fighting and remembered a lot of his movements. Then she picked up the weapon and essentially used her memory. Yet, she still didn't have an exact idea what to do with the weapon, and indeed she refrains from using it again for a pretty damn long time.
Despite the fact that he couldn't possibly have trained purely by himself, and the fact that whenever he carried out his Jedi missions for the Order, he went away and left Nomi and Vima behind. There's also the fact that Nomi was 100% against being a Jedi, so I doubt she would have put any effort into paying attention into Andur's training, it's much more likely that she would have actually put effort into not paying attention into such a thing, given how badly she was against becoming a Jedi. Really, what you're arguing is a huge unsupported assumption, there's nothing to suggest that she would have picked up anything from Andur while he had been a Knight. There's also the fact that the context in which it's stated in the comic is purely to put emphasis on how prodigious Nomi Sunrider was, so if she'd simply recalled stuff that her husband had been doing, it wouldn't quite have the same effect that the comic was trying to relay, don't you think? And really, let's pretend that this is the Nai Fohl Land, and Nomi Sunrider really had observed some of Andur's training sessions: do you really think she would have retained anything? Given that she wouldn't have had any clue what he was doing, and thus wouldn't be able to relate to the practise sessions, I doubt her observations would have been strong enough that she'd retain them in times of duress.
Still every (and yes, I mean every) trained lightsaber duellist would have tooled her because mastery of a style, like Mace Windu descripes his Vaapad in the ROTS novel, basically means that a Jedi can leave the fighting to his body without having to think about it any longer. And that was clearly NOT the case with Nomi when she picked up her weapon.
How is that not the case? Nomi Sunrider quite clearly was letting the force guide her movements. What don't you get about her wielding her saber like a true master the very first time she picked one up? You're twisting canon sources here, and it's making you look extremely silly, given how black and white it is in this case. She wielded her saber like a true master, not like someone who was very proficient with a saber, but like a true master, that's all there is to it, deal with it.
a) Luke can make himself completely invisible and unsenseable via the force while remaining able to do what he want.
I want a source, page number, and quote (along with the passage that the quote appears in) for all of this, because you've been known to lie about things in the past (example - Mace fully creating Vaapad by the age of 13), and IIRC, his power capabilities within this state were unknown. And really, given how you downplay the fact that Darth Nihilus is naturally always in this state, I find it funny how you make such a big deal out of it when Luke's involved.
b) He can create loops in the force (as he did to turn an entire planet invisible) meaning he can directly manipulate the force to do something he wants. Means he does actualy have direct access to an infinite amount of force energy which is enough to tear every opponent apart.
"I want a source, page number, and quote (along with the passage that the quote appears in) for all of this, because you've been known to lie about things in the past (example - Mace fully creating Vaapad by the age of 13)."
c) In lightsaber combat he slaughtered through entire armies of enemies, during the NJO series even some that were equipped with lightsaber resistant armour and weaponary. Without having many problems.
Entire armies? If you're referring to TUF, doesn't he only slaughter one army? Without having many problems? By the time he was done, wasn't it actually noted how fatigued he was? If so, I'd say it's safe to say that he likely had to put a tad bit of effort into it.
I'd really like to see how you reached the conclusion that either Bane or Krayt are a match for Luke. In force combat point "b" is pretty much enough to destroy them. In lightsaber combat I'd really like to see how Krayt and Bane are going to stop somebody who can apparently utilize his offhand as well as all other NJO members can fight with their main-hand, move with speed that makes him appear like a nice blur to other Jedi (namely Jacen and Jaina in TUF) and is obviously able of cutting down opponents wearing lightsaber resistant armor with a single strike.
The arguments have already been made, I can't be arsed to present them again, I was just wondering why you were of the opinion that Luke would beat them with such ease, when he struggled against Lady "I'm a cyborg, ergo I suck" Lumiya.