I surely never did site Tulak Hord or the Exile as people who learned multiple forms. Because I, unlike you, don't discuss unknowns.
LMFAO, I wasn't even going to bother taking the time out to dig out the quote of you saying such, but the 'unknowns' jab really hurt my feelings, so unlucky:
Please don't lie, Nai (lolz, I'm a poet).
I was merely remarking upon the fact that there is a difference between a trained warrior and and somebody who wields a weapon for the first time. No matter how much of a prodigy Nomi Sunrider was. A fully trained master of the weapon would still take her out. Even talent, even as great as Nomi's, does have it's limitations. We can keep arguing that back and forth. But in no way can somebody simply pick up a weapon and, without prior knowledge, handle it exactly like a master who trained combat with that certain weapon over years and decades. It's simply not possible.
Right, because The Nai says so? Dude, you can't argue against this, she was stated to wield the weapon like a true master the very first time she picked one up, it's that simple. Now I'm not saying that at that point, she could just go and tool any master, not at all, I just find your remark that any experienced master would be able to just tool her, despite the fact that she was explicitly stated to have already wielded the weapon like a true master very odd. It seems you just can't handle someone who's not a PT or NJO Jedi having that kind of talent, and won't accept it.
Yet Nomi's feat in lightsaber combat are rather limited - or did you see her outduel anybody ? The "lightsaber ownage" in the TOTJ comics is clearly left to Kun and Ulic.
Absence of proof =/ proof of absence. For all you know, if given the chance, she could have tooled just about anybody in her era (though I will say that I doubt she'd beat Ulic or Exar). We simply don't know.
With the expanded knowledge about the lightsaber forms that we do pocess today, a decade after the TOTJ comics were written - do you really consider it possible that somebody picks up a lightsaber and wields it like a "true master" ?
I've already answered to this above, but I'll reply again: Hell Yeah! When we have people like Kyle Katarn defeating 7 powerful darksider lightsaber wielders without any training, and Ulic Quel-Droma fending off the attacks of an extremely powerful darkside driven jedi Master, while having been cut off from the force, out of practise for a decade, and holding back, it's really not that hard to believe that Nomi could possess such astonishing talent. I'd actually say that it's likely her pure talent with the saber is second to nobody.
You have to take into consideration that at the point in time were that line was written, there were no lightsaber forms. Lightsaber combat was pretty much some variation of Katana swordfighting
Arguing against the line from an out of story perspective is pointless, as it doesn't apply to stuff that happens inside the story, so this is irrelevant.
I don't want to argue that Nomi Sunrider wasn't impressive or talented when it came to lightsaber combat. The point is that she would miss the results of years / decade long training that other lightsaber combatants do possess. The same is naturally the case with the Exile. Watching some movements or knowing which end of the lightsaber you need to stab into the next enemy isn't the same thing as mastering lightsaber combat or a certain form.
I'm not denying that she would have missed out on years of experience and training, and general improvement, however it's likely that her natural talent was so incredible that it made up for all of that. I think that was the point of the statement; to show just how incredible her natural talent was, despite her lack of experience and training.
Oh my. Where was the lie about Mace creating Vaapad when he was thirteen ? Do I really have to give you a lection in SW history again ? It's a known fact that Mace became a Jedi Master and Council Member at the age of 28, correct ? It's also a known fact that to receive this position somebody must have successfully trained another person to Jedi Knight status. We know that Mace did train Depa Billaba and taught her Vaapad in that days. Now use some logic. As the average training of somebody to Jedi Knight status takes at least 13 years (Anakin, Mace himself), at least with the guidelines of the PT Jedi Order, we can safely say that Mace must have started to train Depa when he was 13 or 14 years old. And as he, at the same time, was capable of teaching her Vaapad he must indeed have designed that style before. As you might have noticed he obviously start practicing that art immediatly after constructing his first own lightsaber (age 14) which again means, that he had to design that style before that point in time. Or do you have a source saying something different ?
1. "It's also a known fact that to receive this position somebody must have successfully trained another person to Jedi Knight status."
False. It's not a prerequisite for becoming a Master, many Masters, even Council Members, never trained a padawan. This alone proves your theory wrong. Mace could have simply trained her after becoming a Master.
2. "We know that Mace did train Depa Billaba and taught her Vaapad in that days"
Do we know that, or are you just assuming? If it's said somewhere, then I'll eat my words, but if you're just assuming that he must have taught her when she was his padawan, then that's all it is: an assumption. For all you know, he could have created it when they were both Masters, and taught it to her when she was also a Master, like he did with Sora Bulq.
3. "As the average training of somebody to Jedi Knight status takes at least 13 years (Anakin, Mace himself), at least with the guidelines of the PT Jedi Order"
Where's this said? If you're assuming that that would be the minimum time based on a few random examples, then that's quite simply ridiculous.
Really, there's no point in you replying, since point #1 already proves your entire theory wrong. Really, don't you think it would have been mentioned in another source if he had created the form by the age of 13, it's pretty noteworthy. You're looking far too into this.
And for Luke you have to check the Black Fleet trilogy (the last book). I don't have it at hand but it descripes point "a" and "b" of my previous argument pretty much.
Yeah, because I'm a bastard, Tyrant's Test 😂 . No more excuses now big boy.
Luke is learning from the Falanassi. One of them, being a far lesser force user than Luke, simply makes herself invisible and completely unsenseable via the force in less than a second and then escapes from Luke's ship. Luke learned that technique. The "loop" thing is also descriped there. Luke simply closes his eyes for a few seconds and then renders a complete planet and a pretty huge spaceship invisible. Then he says that this will remain like that for an infinite amount of time while he doesn't have to focus on it any longer.
If you can indeed prove that this is true, I'd probably rate Luke a little higher, but I really just don't buy it. If that was the case, he would have used the abilities again, in times where they could have helped, for example, against Lumiya. Surely he could have just made himself unsee able and insensible in the force, and used some of his infinite supply of force energy to suspend her in the air and create a wall of light around her or something. Really, if it was as simple as you're making it out to be, he would have used the techniques again sometime.
Given how I asked you to proof that Darth Nihilus is hard to sense in the force or even "invisible" or "unsenseable" two times and you utterly failed to do so, I will you tell you for the third time that this idea is just a construct of your imagination. Obviously all people in KotoR 2 are capable of sensing the Exiles nature through the force (Kreia, the Jedi Masters) meaning that they can sense the Exile which isn't different from Nihilus.
Nai, what is it that makes the Vong immune to the Living Force, and impossible to sense by the Living Force? I'll answer for you: it's their lack of presence within the Living Force. Now given that Nihilus lacks presence in the force, period (Living, Unifying...) please explain why Nihilus wouldn't possess those same qualities. The Exile example just flat out proves nothing, given that she doesn't possess the same nature as Nihilus, and started slowly regaining her force presence ever since the start of KotOR2, and thus is not a 100% wound in the force.
And just to remind you: Wounds in the force are pretty apparent and well recognizeable. Leia stumbling across a phenomenon like that was simply knocked out by the feelings of loss and pain it was radiating. Means: You're trying to hand us bullshit you made up as fact.
Please explain what the hell you're talking about. Since when did Leia come across a wound in the force?
Oh my.
Look, quit with the 'oh my's, you made it seem like he slaughtered entire armies all at once, not on separate occasions, so please allow being so sneaky.
-> in SotE he's hacking his way through a nice amount of Black Sun members and bounty hunters
A nice amount = army? 😂
BTW, is Darth Maul a god too?
-> in Trace of Bakura he takes it up with a an army of Ssi'ruuk
Whatever, if it's no more impressive than what you just mentioned, it means jack, quite frankly. What you need to understand is that for even slightly powerful force users, taking out large numbers of non force users really isn't that tricky, as can be seen constantly throughout the mythology (the Darth Maul comic, for example). If relative weaklings like Maul can do similar feats, it's really not worth bragging about.
-> in the NJO he slaughters through the Vong HQ with apparent ease
Again, quit with the 'apparent ease' bs, if it was so easy, he wouldn't have been so fatigued by the time he fought Shimraa. Now this is impressive, I won't deny that, but is it really so beyond someone like Bane, who himself can move at insane speeds, and who possesses near indestructible armour?
-> in the DN trilogy he has to deal with a nice amount of Killiks
Read the title of the topic, genius, this is NJO Luke, Pay Attention!!
And back to the NJO scenary. He's descriped as a "maelstrom" of power who's movement only appear at blurs to Jacen and Jaina who did pretty much only watch their uncle doing most of the work himself while they have a pretty much hard time following him (not to mention the other troops who fall back rather far behind the three Jedi).
And? Bane was described in a similar light too during his duel with Sirak, and that was lightyears away from his ability shown in BotS.
Yet Luke is still able to take it up with Shimmra after that who is at least in one league with somebody like Kar Vastor (if not even more dangerous than him). Sure he's a little bit tired there but aside from the fact that we won't have had a real showdown, had he simply tooled Shimmra with his force powers, killing an army of being who can only hardly be affected with the force and do possess lightsaber resistant weapons and armour is pretty much a testament for Luke's skills. Especially if you consider how he took the slayers out (that were seven at once, correct ?) when other Jedi (like Kyp Durron) obviously had problems taking out one of them.
I'm not denying that Luke's very powerful, but so are Krayt and Bane. I just can't see him getting past the both of them with any sort of ease whatsoever.
Yet what did Krayt and Bane do that comes even remotely close to such an action, hmm ?
Bane: Directing the movement of a moon to a considerable degree, casually, while riding on the back of a flying beast.
Controlling and directing enough power to wipe out an entire world, and virtually anything in its path.
Moving at speeds comparable to what Luke achieves at a point where he's nowhere near as powerful as his BotS incarnation.
Mastering lightning on first usage, and creating miniature storms with it.
Having the skill and ability with a saber to defeat Kas'im in a duel.
Possessing near indestructible armour.
Krayt: Tooling about 6 powerful Imperial Knights with a saber all at once.
Ruling above an entire legion of darksiders, and keeping them in line.
Possessing Vonduun Crab Armour, which is extremely potent in defending against a lightsaber.
Having hundreds of years worth of experience, training, and studying under the force.
...
Defeating armies really isn't too beyond what people like Krayt and Bane can accomplish, it's not the end all be all of who's powerful in the SW universe.
The mere fact that Luke did defeat DE Sidious in a lightsaber duel, who was more powerful than ROTS Sidious who - at this time - was already more powerful than Bane is actually enough to show you, who is the better force user here.
Oh how you love twisting things. You forgot to mention a few facts.
1. Sidious wasn't even taking their duel seriously, and could have finished Luke if he chose to use the force
2. Luke was only able to defeat Sidious because Leia was powering him up via battle meditation.
3. RotS Sidious is in now way superior to Bane, stop using LiarSnake's fake sources, they don't work.
4. BotS Bane and DE Sidious are basically on par, and Bane is likely superior to Sids in terms of saber duelling.
What we're essentially getting down to here, is that you're using an ABC argument that doesn't even work. That's what you'd call a double fallacy.
DE Luke would be able to defeat Bane most likely.
😆
His NJO version would destroy Bane on the spot.
No.
Yeah. Your famous Bane fanboy arguments have also been destroyed multiple time here as well as over at the EOD. I wonder why you still want to stick with them.
If you consider typing up long ass responses that I don't have time to reply to a victory, then you'd be correct.
And wow...he held back against Lumiya as you should pretty well know.
WTF? Is this some sort of poor attempt to skirt around my question? You seem to have missed my point, which was that if Luke was as powerful as you seem to think, he wouldn't have struggled so much against Lumiya. I already went into this point earlier along in this post, so there's no need to repeat my self, already dealt with.
Simply look how he actually defeated Raynar who was attacking him with the combined force powers of millions of beings (in that case 275 worlds filled with Killiks and joiners). Luke simply shrugged a force attack powered up with this off like it was nothing. I wonder what Bane or Krayt should come up with to actually overpower him.
"Read the title of the topic, genius, this is NJO Luke, Pay Attention!!"
Originally posted by Apollo Cloud
LMFAO, I wasn't even going to bother taking the time out to dig out the quote of you saying such, but the 'unknowns' jab really hurt my feelings, so unlucky:Please don't lie, Nai (lolz, I'm a poet).
Nice action ripping out statement out of the actual context. Also notice the "seem" within the sentece. I didn't state that that Hord or the Exile did actually master several styles, I said it seemed as if that was the case. You might spot a nice different there. And I did never try to argue that the Exile mastered all seven forms or that Hord did. Which was actually where we were coming from while I did say, even in this debate here, that the Exile most likely had knowledge of different forms. So what do you want, smartass ?
Right, because The Nai says so? Dude, you can't argue against this, she was stated to wield the weapon like a true master the very first time she picked one up, it's that simple. Now I'm not saying that at that point, she could just go and tool any master, not at all, I just find your remark that any experienced master would be able to just tool her, despite the fact that she was [b]explicitly stated to have already wielded the weapon like a true master very odd. It seems you just can't handle someone who's not a PT or NJO Jedi having that kind of talent, and won't accept it.
Oh my, idiot. Please define "like a master" to do me. Like what master ? Like Master Windu who created his own style ? Like master Yoda who was capable of dodging three lightsaber without having one in his own hands ? Or like Master Agen "WTF Sidious raped me in two seconds" Kolar ? And yet I don't know why you even brought that up. Nomi is descriped as a prodigy in all fields of the Jedi Arts while the Exile is descriped as "midiocre Jedi" by Vrook and "average" by Vandar with the exception of the force bond thing. Does somebody mention her UBER skills in the art of lightsaber combat ? No ? Then lay this strawman to rest.
Absence of proof =/ proof of absence. For all you know, if given the chance, she could have tooled just about anybody in her era (though I will say that I doubt she'd beat Ulic or Exar). We simply don't know.
Obviously she was not able to "tool" Nihilus or Sion. Revan ? Malak ? Bandon ? I guess they were all "above" the Exile in the ranks of Revan's fleet for some reason. And Kun as well as Ulic don't really belong to the time of the Exile. The people in the first KotoR game are already just remains of the TOTJ comic Jedi Order. After being hunted down by Sith assassins that situation did most likely not turn any better.
I've already answered to this above, but I'll reply again: Hell Yeah! When we have people like Kyle Katarn defeating 7 powerful darksider lightsaber wielders without any training, and Ulic Quel-Droma fending off the attacks of an extremely powerful darkside driven jedi Master, while having been cut off from the force, out of practise for a decade, and holding back, it's really not that hard to believe that Nomi could possess such astonishing talent. I'd actually say that it's likely her pure talent with the saber is second to nobody.
The point is that the Exile is by no means compareable to prodegies in the art of lightsaber combat as she was average at best. An average Jedi doesn't take up a weapon to instantly fight like a master. That's the entire point in my argument. The Exile isn't compareable to the like of Ulic, Kyle or Kun in that department. Not even close to.
Arguing against the line from an out of story perspective is pointless, as it doesn't apply to stuff that happens inside the story, so this is irrelevant.
Arguing against canon from any given perspective isn't exactly smart too. There is simply no way to "master" the art of lightsaber combat by simply picking up the weapon and swing it around. Otherwise Luke in times of ANH should have been able to kick the asses of some random thugs using his lightsaber. Yet obviously he still prefers his blaster - even after training with Yoda in ESB.
I'm not denying that she would have missed out on years of experience and training, and general improvement, however it's likely that her natural talent was so incredible that it made up for all of that. I think that was the point of the statement; to show just how incredible her natural talent was, despite her lack of experience and training.
Really. Talent can't make up for years / decades of combat training no matter how long you're trying to argue it. I can again only site Mace who in the RotS novel is capable of fencing Sidious without even wasting a thought on the actual movements he does with the saber just because of the training he had.That's a level of combat skill only archievable through training. Talent would obviously help you there to advance faster but that's really as far as it goes.
False. It's not a prerequisite for becoming a Master, many Masters, even Council Members, never trained a padawan. This alone proves your theory wrong. Mace could have simply trained her after becoming a Master.
Lacking knowledge much ? All members of the Jedi Council (in times of the PT) did sucessfully train Padawans to Jedi Knight status. The only exception actually is Ki-Adi Mundi who was chosen into the council because of his logical abilities.
Do we know that, or are you just assuming? If it's said somewhere, then I'll eat my words, but if you're just assuming that he must have taught her when she was his padawan, then that's all it is: an assumption. For all you know, he could have created it when they were both Masters, and taught it to her when she was also a Master, like he did with Sora Bulq.
Read Shatterpoint. He recalls them fighting together as Master / Padawan combo both using Vaapad. So yes. He did train her in that art when she was his padawan.
So he can't have created it when they both were masters. It's even said that he created it together with Sora Bulq who was one of his lightsaber trainers at that time. As Jedi Knights don't receive lightsaber training any longer and Mace became a Jedi Knight at the age of 14 he must actually have come up with Vaapad before that. So ?
Where's this said? If you're assuming that that would be the minimum time based on a few random examples, then that's quite simply ridiculous.
Oh. You did notice that those "random examples" are actually the two most gifted students (meaning advancing through the ranks the fastest) the order had at that time ? As you might have noticed it took other people 25 years to become Jedi Knights (Kenobi for example). Getting there in 13 years after actually starting to train (Anakin, Mace) is pretty outstanding since normally people with that training time where just chosen to become Padawans.
Really, there's no point in you replying, since point #1 already proves your entire theory wrong. Really, don't you think it would have been mentioned in another source if he had created the form by the age of 13, it's pretty noteworthy. You're looking far too into this.
Since your #1 is already wrong that's pretty nice. And since I, unlike you, possess some knowledge when it comes to Star Wars it's pretty pointless for you to actually come up with any sort of rebuttal to this.
continue...
...cont:
Yeah, because I'm a bastard, Tyrant's Test 😂 . No more excuses now big boy.
What excuses are you talking about, idiot ?
Here some display of the Falanassi abilities Luke did learn in that book:
"When she did not even look back, he started after her. But in the next moment, she vanished--as thoroughly and effortlessly as she had aboard the ship. There was not even a tremble in the Force to mark her disappearance or betray her presence afterward."
Ups. She simply turned herself completely invisible and unsenseable.
Then Luke doing the same thing to the vagabond to "practice":
When Luke closed his eyes and began breathing in deep, slow waves, Eckels noted it without comment. But he was not wholly surprised when, a short time later, the vagabond disappeared completely from view.
Ups. Entire massive star ship disappearing thanks to Luke without needing any concentration from him to keep it hidden once it vanished. He's manipulating the force to do that directly
If you can indeed prove that this is true, I'd probably rate Luke a little higher, but I really just don't buy it. If that was the case, he would have used the abilities again, in times where they could have helped, for example, against Lumiya. Surely he could have just made himself unsee able and insensible in the force, and used some of his infinite supply of force energy to suspend her in the air and create a wall of light around her or something. Really, if it was as simple as you're making it out to be, he would have used the techniques again sometime.
See above. And that happened roughly a decade before the NJO giving Luke pretty much time to practice that abilities further. And please: How boring would SW novels get if Luke would use this every time ? You would only see him "stealthing" around just to reappear (if even that) right next to his opponent and kill / defeat them. What do you think why they always have to either weaken him before confrontation, make him hesistate (holding back) or equip his opponents with huge amount of powers. Hell...in the DN trilogy Unu'Thul is wielding "the combined powers" of the Killiks (at that time 275 planets filled with them and joiners) and he puts everything into one single attack on Luke and Luke - shrugs it off and doesn't even move a centrimetre.
Nai, what is it that makes the Vong immune to the Living Force, and impossible to sense by the Living Force? I'll answer for you: it's their lack of presence within the Living Force. Now given that Nihilus lacks presence in the force, period (Living, Unifying...) please explain why Nihilus wouldn't possess those same qualities. The Exile example just flat out proves nothing, given that she doesn't possess the same nature as Nihilus, and started slowly regaining her force presence ever since the start of KotOR2, and thus is not a 100% wound in the force.
WTF ? Again. Where does it ever say that Nihilus doesn't have any presence in the force ? He and the Exile are both descriped as "wounds in the force" and they are senseable - even more than any other force user as they radiate pain via the force. They do carry that in them. Technically they are some compressed versions of what Obi-Wan felt when Alderaan was vaporized and what Yoda sensed when Order 66 was executed. That's "not senseable" for you ? Again I can only ask you where it was ever mentioned that Nihilus can't be sensed. And don't dodge this question again.
Please explain what the hell you're talking about. Since when did Leia come across a wound in the force?
The destruction of the second Death Star over Endor did create a wound in the force. Leia was simply knocked out because of that when she did return to Endor five years after ROTJ. As I said: Wounds in the force are always created when a huge loss of life happens in short times. And they are pretty damn senseable.
Look, quit with the 'oh my's, you made it seem like he slaughtered entire armies all at once, not on separate occasions, so please allow being so sneaky.
Yeah. Your reading disability is obviously my fault.
Again, quit with the 'apparent ease' bs, if it was so easy, he wouldn't have been so fatigued by the time he fought Shimraa. Now this is impressive, I won't deny that, but is it really so beyond someone like Bane, who himself can move at insane speeds, and who possesses near indestructible armour?
Yes. It's completely beyond Bane to actually do that unless you show me where he kills people that have force lightning "arching away from them" with force abilities or he slaughters people with lightsaber resistant armor, multiple times as strong as trained human soldiers, with entchantments done via bio-engeneering that makes their speed compareable to that of Jedi.
And? Bane was described in a similar light too during his duel with Sirak, and that was lightyears away from his ability shown in BotS.
Of course Bane was descriped in a similar way to this here:
"He was his own vortex, deflecting amphistaff strikes, whiplike lashes, and spurts of deadly venom; dodging or redirecting flights of thud bugs; parrying the thrusts of coufees, to sidestep, duck, maneuver his body in ways that seemed to defy gravity. Stunned or burned by Luke's green blade, thud bugs were ricocheting from the walls and high ceiling, chipping away at the yorik coral surface.
[...]
His single blade might as well have been ten, or twenty. He took the steps at a lightning pace, burning his way through dilating membranes but in complete control of his momentum. Seen through the Force he was a maelstrom of luminous energy, a Force storm against which there was no shelter. And yet all his energy poured from a calm center; an eye.
He made no missteps. None of his actions were interrupted by thought. In fact, Luke didn't seem to be there at all - physically or as an individual personality. Jacen and Jaina were astounded - but they had little time to reflect."
You were saying ?
Bane: Directing the movement of a moon to a considerable degree, casually, while riding on the back of a flying beast.
Which still has not be confirmed to have actually happened as he just thinks he has to do that himself. And again I can only say that RotS Sidious has been descriped as the strongest Sith of Bane's order, meaning he > Bane at this point already.
Krayt: Tooling about 6 powerful Imperial Knights with a saber all at once.Ruling above an entire legion of darksiders, and keeping them in line.
I wonder how powerful that opponents / followers actually were.
Possessing Vonduun Crab Armour, which is extremely potent in defending against a lightsaber.
Yeah. Yuuzhan Vong armor. See above how much it did help against Luke's actual onslaught.
RotS Sidious is in now way superior to Bane, stop using LiarSnake's fake sources, they don't work.
Yeah. Calling the RotS and TPM novels "fake sources" is pretty funny. Or the comments of Leland Chee on the issue. Or Lucas own words. Really funny that is.
BotS Bane and DE Sidious are basically on par, and Bane is likely superior to Sids in terms of saber duelling.
Come back when Bane "ravages space-time itself" with his force powers.
If you consider typing up long ass responses that I don't have time to reply to a victory, then you'd be correct.
This was the dumbest justification attempt for losing a debate that I've ever seen.
WTF? Is this some sort of poor attempt to skirt around my question? You seem to have missed my point, which was that if Luke was as powerful as you seem to think, he wouldn't have struggled so much against Lumiya. I already went into this point earlier along in this post, so there's no need to repeat my self, already dealt with.
Yeah. What you haven't dealt with is that the last story of the series released (Exile) tells you that Luke could have destroyed Lumiya on the spot any time given. So why even bother to argue that fight ?