Originally posted by Battlehammer
yes and? third tier is highly skilled martial artists.It not however in this thread.
No it not. I think he a highly skilled MA which is why I have him in the tier that states highly skilled MA.
That's nice, except he has beat (and easily mind you) people in second tier and embarassed people in third tier. If you actually have looked at what he has done you would know he is a master martial artist which even Shang Chi mentioned he was 😬 (and no he isn't on Shang Chi's level and not claiming that)
Ummm...no, you even have admit in other threads you havn't read much of MK. 😬
Originally posted by -K-M-
That's nice, except he has beat (and easily mind you) people in second tier and embarassed people in third tier. If you actually have looked at what he has done you would know he is a master martial artist which even Shang Chi mentioned he was 😬 (and no he isn't on Shang Chi's level and not claiming that)Ummm...no, you even have admit in other threads you havn't read much of MK. 😬
who has MK beaten through pure skill in 2nd tier?
so? That does not mean I am underestimating his skill. Yes he very skilled fighter. Is he a second tier in h2h MA prowesses I dont believe so.
Originally posted by Battlehammer
Yes and wolverine has beaten people in the tier above him and punked others in his tier that does not mean he should be moved up just like MK.who has MK beaten through pure skill in 2nd tier?
so? That does not mean I am underestimating his skill. Yes he very skilled fighter. Is he a second tier in h2h MA prowesses I dont believe so.
Whos Wolverine beaten in the tier above him? If that we true yeah he should be moved up.
Originally posted by Battlehammer
why should he been second tier? what he done in terms of h2h that makes him a 2nd tier?
Well for starters some of the stuff you were saying about MK isnt true, 'he mostly scares people off'.
Originally posted by Battlehammerwho has MK beaten through pure skill in 2nd tier?
By the way are we going to have a problem with you getting into a semantical debate about what skill is? ie if Mk punches somebody thats not skill?
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Whos Wolverine beaten in the tier above him? If that we true yeah he should be moved up.Well for starters some of the stuff you were saying about MK isnt true, 'he mostly scares people off'.
Ogun and he was beating stick. No it does not. Just because he beaten people above does not make him as skilled.
He from what I have seen tends to beat oponents simply from being tougher in h2h combat not due to his superior MA prowesses.
Originally posted by Phantom ZoneBy the way are we going to have a problem with you getting into a semantical debate about what skill is? ie if Mk punches somebody thats not skill?
If MK beats some one but was getting thrashed the entire time and wins because of superior damage soak that does not make him more skilled.
just like punisher over powering tiger shark does not make him a 2nd tier.
Originally posted by Battlehammer
Ogun and he was beating stick. No it does not. Just because he beaten people above does not make him as skilled.
Um so you think Stick was trying his best? Yeah it would if he beat them with skill.
Originally posted by Battlehammer
He from what I have seen tends to beat oponents simply from being tougher in h2h combat not due to his superior MA prowesses.
Not really interested in anything else apart from these guys above top tier. By the way why is Silver Samurai so high up?
Originally posted by Battlehammer
what? shut up.If MK beats some one but was getting thrashed the entire time and wins because of superior damage soak that does not make him more skilled.
Fine but there re examples of him doing well with skill anyway.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Um so you think Stick was trying his best? Yeah it would if he beat them with skill.Not really interested in anything else apart from these guys above top tier. By the way why is Silver Samurai so high up?
Fine but there re examples of him doing well with skill anyway.
No reason he would not be. He has no fear of killing wolverine nor is stick known for his restraint. no nessarly, becuase consistently they might be more skilled. For example bulleye has taken elektra and DD at once and was winning however he also been beaten by DD number of times. Just because a character has beaten some one a tier above does not make them one as well.
If you were only interested with guys above top tier why did you start an arguement about MK then?
No idea. It hard to judge him. If weapon skill was in place he be 2nd tier however jsut h2h it hard to say. He did beat a superhuman that had knowledge of almost every MA style ever, but silver samuria displayed knowledge of forgotten MA styles and defeat the meta human.
perhaps, I have to see them.
Originally posted by BattlehammerYou know the context of the situation right? Stick wasnt trying to kill him so could you please not bring killing into this. Stick was trying to test him Wolverine is a friend not an enemy. Im not saying Stick was being completely slack but he clearly wasnt trying to his full extent. Those examples are terrible. Bullseyes has never beaten DD pure h2h, Elektra wasnt as tough as she is now when Bullseye fought and if you're refering to a second fight Bullseye was specfically prepped for her (not sure if he won). Bulleyes holding his own against DD. Those are not examples of a second tier beating a top tier, so yes if you beat people in tier above you using skill you get moved up. I might get scans later but I feel i would be wasting my time anyway. Yoiu have only one example for SS, thats not enough.
No reason he would not be. He has no fear of killing wolverine nor is stick known for his restraint. no nessarly, becuase consistently they might be more skilled. For example bulleye has taken elektra and DD at once and was winning however he also been beaten by DD number of times. Just because a character has beaten some one a tier above does not make them one as well.If you were only interested with guys above top tier why did you start an arguement about MK then?
No idea. It hard to judge him. If weapon skill was in place he be 2nd tier however jsut h2h it hard to say. He did beat a superhuman that had knowledge of almost every MA style ever, but silver samuria displayed knowledge of forgotten MA styles and defeat the meta human.
perhaps, I have to see them.
Originally posted by Battlehammer
who has MK beaten through pure skill in 2nd tier?so? That does not mean I am underestimating his skill. Yes he very skilled fighter. Is he a second tier in h2h MA prowesses I dont believe so.
Nick Fury
In the same sentence you even admited you don't know much about him and then you still are making the claim for his skill. Your not underestimating his skill, your being ignorant of it. 😬
Originally posted by Battlehammer
He from what I have seen tends to beat oponents simply from being tougher in h2h combat not due to his superior MA prowesses.
Then you havn't seen much 😬
Originally posted by Battlehammer
If MK beats some one but was getting thrashed the entire time and wins because of superior damage soak that does not make him more skilled.
The reason as noted due to his damage soak is from his training which was stated, and no he does not contiously use his damage soak to win battles. Have all you read of him was the Taskmaster "fight"? 😬
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Regardless I'm done there's no point in debating with someone who clearly doesn't know what he is talking about. If you reply to my post I'll reply back but that is all.
Originally posted by snoopdogg
I like how Silver Samurai gets the benefit of doubt but Blade, MK, and Punisher don't even though their handbooks state they are master martial artists.
I'm no expert on SS but he has had a few close but still ultimately unsuccessful fights against top tier Wolverine. During at least one of those fights Logan has flat out stated SS is a very good opponent skill wise.
I think he has also had close fights with Shang Chi and Iron Fist though I may be wrong on this.
As a master Samurai SS is no doubt extremely well versed in not just armed but also unarmed combat.
I personally think weapons should be considered (within reason) in this thread. After all the use of swords, staffs etc still comes under the umbrella term 'martial arts'.
For all his credits and accolades Blade simply doesn't have the MA feats to warrant a move up the table. :/
Originally posted by Warrior18
I'm no expert on SS but he has had a few close but still ultimately unsuccessful fights against top tier Wolverine. During at least one of those fights Logan has flat out stated SS is a very good opponent skill wise.I think he has also had close fights with Shang Chi and Iron Fist though I may be wrong on this.
Were he was mainly using his sword?
Originally posted by Warrior18
As a master Samurai SS is no doubt extremely well versed in not just armed but also [B]unarmed combat.I personally think weapons should be considered (within reason) in this thread. After all the use of swords, staffs etc still comes under the umbrella term 'martial arts'.[/B]
Could you please provide proof that SS's unarmed ability is second tier
Originally posted by Warrior18
For all his credits and accolades Blade simply doesn't have the MA feats to warrant a move up the table. :/
Blade has a very good showing against Morbius ( Morbius is able to give Spiderman a decent fight). Did well against an amped vampire that took Morbius out in 2 panels and held his won against Spitfire.
For the life of me I cannot understand what the hell hes doing in the same tier as Cyclops. Put Cyclops in some of Blades situations and he would be deadmeat cant see him beating up a bunch of vampires especially ones that can actually fight.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Were he was mainly using his sword?Could you please provide proof that SS's unarmed ability is second tier
Well my understanding was that this is a martial arts tier thread and using the katana is a martial arts skill. I thought we classed weapons use as valid. We should in my opinion.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
For the life of me I cannot understand what the hell hes doing in the same tier as Cyclops.
I myself don't know much about Cyclops nor do I really rate his H2H fighting ability compared to characters who specialise in it anyway.*shrugs*
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Put Cyclops in some of Blades situations and he would be deadmeat cant see him beating up a bunch of vampires especially ones that can actually fight.
Well Blade is considerably stronger/faster/tougher than Cyclops anyway................
Originally posted by Martian_mind
Update.Current Hierarchy [194]
Cosmic Tier: (Transcendent Martial Artists) [3]
Gamora, Karate Kid, MantisUber Tier: (Unearthly Martial Artists) [10]
Adam Warlock, Captain Mar-Vell, Kirigi (DC), Mandarin, Moondragon, O-Sensei, Ogun, Stick, Temugin, ThanosTop Tier: ("Greatest Martial Artists"😉 [18]
Batgirl (Cassandra Cain), Batman, Black Canary, Bronze Tiger, Captain America, Connor Hawke, Constantine Drakon, Daredevil, Elektra, Iron Fist, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi, Shen Kuei (The Cat), Snake-Eyes, Storm Shadow, Taskmaster, WolverineSecond Tier: (Master Martial Artists) [58]
Agent X, Artemis, Azrael, Backlash, Black Panther, Black Widow, Bullseye, Cable, Champion of the Universe, Cheshire, Crossbones, Daken, David Cain, Deadpool, Deathstroke, Domino, Donatello, Echo, Erik Killmonger, Gorgon (Tomi Shishido), Green Arrow, Grifter, Hawkman, Jason Blood, Judomaster (Hadley Jagger), Karnak, Lady Deathstrike, Leonardo, Magnus, Merlyn (DC), Michaelangelo, Midnight Sun, Mr Sensitive, Natas, Nick Fury, Nightwing, Nomad, Orion, Ozymandias (DC), Prometheus, Puck, Ra's al Ghul, Raphael, Ravager, Red Hood, Red Skull, Silver Samurai, Steel Serpent, Stone, Talia al Ghul, Twelve Brothers in Silk, White Tiger (Angela del Toro), Wildcat (Ted Grant), Winter Soldier, Wonder Woman, Vandal Savage, X-23, ZealotThird Tier: (Highly Skilled Martial Artists) [67]
Alpha, Ares (Marvel), Arsenal, Bane, Beta Ray Bill, Black Bolt, Black Cat, Black Knight (Dane Whitman), Blade, Blue Beetle (Ted Kord), Colleen Wing, Damian Wayne, Doctor Mid-Nite, Doctor Strange, Donna Troy, Drax, Duke(GI Joe), Grendel (Hunter Rose), Hawkeye, Heavy Duty(GI Joe), Hercules, Hippolyta, Huntress, Katana, KGBeast, Kingpin, Lady Vic, Lobo, Loki, "Mad Dog" Cain, Matsu'o Tsurayaba, Midnighter, Mister America (Tex Thomson), Mister Terrific, Mockingbird, Moon Knight, Mystique, Namor, Night Thrasher, Nightcrawler, Omega Red, Onyx, Prodigy, Psylocke, Punisher, The Question, Revanche, Robin (Tim Drake), Sage, Sabretooth, Shadowcat, Shatterstar, Shrike IV (Boone), Speedy (Mia Dearden), Spider-Woman (Jessica Drew), Stacy X, Terry McGinnis, Thena, Thor, Typhoid Mary, US Agent, V, Viper (Madame Hydra), Wild Child, Wong, YukioFourth Tier: (Trained Martial Artists) [38]
Aquaman, Batgirl (Barbara Gordon), Batwoman, Beast, Blink, Blue Devil, Boom Boom, Cannonball, Carol Danvers, Catwoman, Colossus, Cyclops, Danielle Moonstar, Deathbird, Falcon, Gambit, Hawkgirl, Invisible Woman, Iron Man, Jamie Madrox, Joker, Jubilee, Luke Cage, Mister Fantastic, Misty Knight, Nite Owl II, Rorschach, She-Hulk, Starfire, Storm, Strong Guy, Superman, Tarantula, Thing, Viper (Madame Hydra), Wonder Man, Zauriel-----------------------------------
Proposed Changes (Votes For / Votes Against)
Jubilee to third 2 [Smurph, Cresh] / 2 [llag, Nataku]
Kingpin to second: 5 [V, jrod, srank, capt, Accel] / 6 [Me, Soljer, llag, Macoy, Smurph, Nataku]
Moon Knight to second: 4 [llagrok, Fake McCoy, Alfheim, Mungi] / 4 [Soljer, Smurph, capt, endrict]
Midnighter to second: 1 [Soljer] / 1 [endrict]
Blade to second: 2 [endrict, Darth Martin] / 2 [llagrok, capt]-----------------------------
Additions:
I've added Alpha (Michael Sommers) and the "Mad Dog" to third tier for now. The latter actually managed to kill Batgirl, but imo it's more due to brutality than pure skill. As always their placement is subject to discussion and change.-----------------------------
Notes:
- The last tier has been dissolved. If you think a character that has been removed should be re-added or a character that has been retained be removed then suggestions are welcome.
For reference purposes the characters removed were the following:
Apocalypse, Grace Choi, Hulk, Monet St. Croix, Scarlet Witch, Spider-Man,- N.B. The Top Tier are characters above ~90th percentile of the total hierarchy top tier and under.
There are currently 18 Top Tier slots divided as follows:
Marvel - 8
DC - 8
Independent/Other - 2- If you feel a character should be moved up or down, please actually state such, so that I do not have to guess intentions.
Originally posted by Warrior18
Well my understanding was that this is a martial arts tier thread and using the katana is a martial arts skill. I thought we classed weapons use as valid. We should in my opinion.
We take feats that involve weapons if the character shows enough decent h2h skills as well.
Originally posted by Warrior18Well Blade is considerably stronger/faster/tougher than Cyclops anyway................
What you mean superhuman?
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
We take feats that involve weapons if the character shows enough decent h2h skills as well.
Well that's a bummer lol.
Surely Blade is in trouble in this regard then if we go mainly by H2H?
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
What you mean superhuman?
Well............yeh.
Albeit as low as one can possibly be with featwise, little to at times no difference between him and the likes of DD or Batman.
EDIT. Sensei to at the very least top tier.
Originally posted by Warrior18I don't think you get to be over 100 years old hunting vampires and demons on a nightly basis with luck, pretty sure you have be be skilled to do that.
For all his credits and accolades Blade simply doesn't have the MA feats to warrant a move up the table. :/
Shield tactitions pegged Blades as their best shot to bring Wolverine in with his skills and resilience. Willing to bet they aren't gonna send just anybody to bring Wolverine in or they would have just sent the Cape Killers to do so.