experience effects a person skill. If you are un experience fighter you are not as skilled as another. Me and you could both be masters of a certain martial arts however if I had vastly more combat experience I would likly thrash you.
combat experience effects how effective as well as skilled you are in battle
Originally posted by capt it up
Not at all. If gorgon was more skilled then wolverine then wolverine
would not have been landing any hits.
that's complete speculation..
you're assuming that 1: gorgon was trying to dodge hits...
and 2: that even if he was, that he was completely unaffected by the sneak attack from shield, wolverine and then from wolverine again.
Originally posted by capt it up
Gorgon was good, but he was not above wolverine, capt and so on with skill he was just superior in ever other aspect.
Originally posted by capt it up
Also how would wolverine stop using skill make him do better? He ment to stop being fancy not stop using skill that just be dumb
Originally posted by Martian_mind
Current HierarchyCosmic Tier: (Universal Martial Artists)
Gamora, Karate Kid, Mantis, Midnight Sun, ThanosUber Tier: (Revered Martial Artists)
Ogun, StickTop Tier: ("Greatest Martial Artists"😉
Batgirl (Cassandra Cain), Batman, Bronze Tiger, Captain America, Connor Hawke, Constantine Drakon, Iron Fist, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi, Shen Kuei (The Cat), Taskmaster, WolverineSecond Tier: (Master Martial Artists)
Agent X, Azrael, Black Canary, Black Panther, Black Widow, Bullseye, Cable, Daredevil, David Cain, Deadpool, Deathstroke, Echo, Elektra, Eric Killmonger, Gorgon, Green Arrow, Karnak, Moon Knight, Natas, Nick Fury, Nightwing, Ra's al Ghul, Ravager, Red Hood, Red Skull, Silver Samurai, Sabretooth, Winter Soldier, Wonder Woman, X-23Third Tier: (Highly Skilled Martial Artists)
Arsenal, Bane, Blade, Dr Strange, Hercules, Kingpin, Lady Deathstrike, Night Thrasher, Midnighter, Punisher, Psylocke, Robin, Shadowcat, US Agent,[b]SpeedyFourth Tier: (Trained Martial Artist)
Batgirl (Barbara Gordon), Black Cat, Colleen Wing, Colossus, Cyclops, Gambit, Misty Knight, Mystique, The Question, She-Hulk, Starfire, Storm, ThingAccomplished Fighter: (Little formal training/Some Skill)
Beast, Catwoman, Luke Cage, Spider-Man----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proposed Changes (Votes For/Votes Against)
[Alfheim]:
Punisher to Second Tier: 1 (Alfheim) / 6 (jinzin, Nataku, V, Soljer, marvelprince and I)
Kingpin to Second Tier: 1 (Alfheim) / 2 (Soljer, marvelprince)
[Me]Sabretooth to Third Tier: 3 (jinzin? V and Soljer) / 1 (capt)
[marvelprince]:
Question to Third Tier: 1 (mp) / 0
Night Thrasher to Second Tier: 1 (mp) / 2 (Soljer, jinzin)
Elektra to the remaining Marvel Top Tier spot: 3 (mp, Accel, jinzin?) / 0
[Devil Lance]: Black Canary to replace Connor Hawke: 1 (DL) / 2 (mp, Soljer)?
[jinzin]:
Moon Knight to Third: 3 (Soljer, mp, jinzin) / 0
Robin to Second: 1 (jinzin) / 0Comments:
-One open Marvel Top Tier spot. Two open Indie/Other spots.
-Daredevil1 you'd have to nominate someone for Deathstroke to replace in the top tier.
-Did I miss any proposed changes or votes? Have any votes been interpreted incorrectly?
-I think the Punisher movement has been defeated. Unless there's at least one or two votes in favour of it before the next update I'm removing it from the proposed changes.
Edit: capt I'm unsure what exactly you meant by "winterer", Winter Soldier? [/B]
I hate my computer some times lol. Just forgett it there not enough feats of winter soldier
Current Hierarchy
Cosmic Tier: (Universal Martial Artists)
Gamora, Karate Kid, Mantis, Midnight Sun, Thanos
Uber Tier: (Revered Martial Artists)
Ogun, Stick,O-sensei( he should be here,i'll find feats)
Top Tier: ("Greatest Martial Artists"😉
Batgirl (Cassandra Cain), Batman, Bronze Tiger, Captain America, Connor Hawke, Constantine Drakon, Iron Fist, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi, Shen Kuei (The Cat), Taskmaster, Wolverine
Second Tier: (Master Martial Artists)
Agent X, Azrael, Black Canary, Black Panther, Black Widow, Bullseye, Cable, Daredevil, David Cain, Deadpool, Deathstroke, Echo, Elektra, Eric Killmonger, Gorgon, Green Arrow, Karnak, Moon Knight, Natas, Nick Fury, Nightwing, Ra's al Ghul, Ravager, Red Hood, Red Skull, Silver Samurai, Sabretooth, Winter Soldier, Wonder Woman, X-23,Wildcat
Third Tier: (Highly Skilled Martial Artists)
Arsenal, Bane, Blade, Dr Strange, Hercules, Kingpin, Lady Deathstrike, Night Thrasher, Midnighter, Punisher, Psylocke, Robin, Shadowcat, US Agent,Speedy,Mister America(classic)
Fourth Tier: (Trained Martial Artist)
Batgirl (Barbara Gordon), Black Cat, Colleen Wing, Colossus, Cyclops, Gambit, Misty Knight, Mystique, The Question, She-Hulk, Starfire, Storm, Thing
Accomplished Fighter: (Little formal training/Some Skill)
Beast, Catwoman, Luke Cage, Spider-Man
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proposed Changes (Votes For/Votes Against)
[Alfheim]:
Punisher to Second Tier: 1 (Alfheim) / 6 (jinzin, Nataku, V, Soljer, marvelprince and I)
Kingpin to Second Tier: 1 (Alfheim) / 2 (Soljer, marvelprince)
[Me]Sabretooth to Third Tier: 3 (jinzin? V and Soljer) / 1 (capt)
[marvelprince]:
Question to Third Tier: 1 (mp) / 0
Night Thrasher to Second Tier: 1 (mp) / 2 (Soljer, jinzin)
Elektra to the remaining Marvel Top Tier spot: 3 (mp, Accel, jinzin?) / 0
[Devil Lance]: Black Canary to replace Connor Hawke: 1 (DL) / 2 (mp, Soljer)?
[jinzin]:
Moon Knight to Third: 3 (Soljer, mp, jinzin) / 0
Robin to Second: 1 (jinzin) / 0
Comments:
-One open Marvel Top Tier spot. Two open Indie/Other spots.
-Daredevil1 you'd have to nominate someone for Deathstroke to replace in the top tier.
-Did I miss any proposed changes or votes? Have any votes been interpreted incorrectly?
-I think the Punisher movement has been defeated. Unless there's at least one or two votes in favour of it before the next update I'm removing it from the proposed changes.
*I would like to say maybe we should make it that there are 20 slots in top-tier as Usually the top 5 from each universe are interchangeable*
Originally posted by jinzin
that's complete speculation..you're assuming that 1: gorgon was trying to dodge hits...
and 2: that even if he was, that he was completely unaffected by the sneak attack from shield, wolverine and then from wolverine again.
Originally posted by jinzin
wolverine certainly seemed to imply otherwise.]
Originally posted by jinzin
[B]no skill equals less mind>less mind> berserker.
It's pretty simple.. wolverine's been showing that trait since his first scuffle with ogun, to his first full fledged battle with him. Go re-read wolverine and kitty pride part six and you'll see exactly what I'm talking about... when wolverine was trying to go on skill alone he got the crap beat out of him.. after he tossed it to the wind it was all his game..
same thing when he fought with mr. x.
berserker does not equal less skill and never has and you know that. It amps all his abilities to max. It makes him faster, stronger, more agile, better reflexes and he retains his skills. Hell You have seen the scann, do I really need to post it. He does not lose any skill by going berserker he simply uses the mots effective way to defeat his enemy.
Originally posted by Nataku8188
Alfheim, just drop it, you're making yourself look like an ignorant fanboy. Just bite the bullet and give up, you're wrong. Not everyone is right all the time, not even me, and I'm like, almost infallible.
What are you talking about you said he had no formal training. Thats ignorant you said he wasnt using MA against MK he was.
Originally posted by SoljerBecause the Punisher is wearing a headband doesn't mean he's Karate Kid....
Thats a joke right?
Originally posted by SoljerLet's see. In the scans you posted, he gets uppercutted, and kicked in the gut. So far...where's the skill?
See what I mean did you notice that MK got punched in the face twice and kicked in the face?
Originally posted by Soljer
He then gets a double fisted upper cut on Moon knight. Brutal. Effective. But skilled? ❌.
Er thats an MA move.....
Originally posted by Soljer
The Punisher then tries an elementary sweep. And follows it up with a rudimentary kick. And gets kicked in the face for his troubles.Skilled?
The Punisher catches Moon Knight in the back of the head with a southpaw. Basic.
He gets kicked in the face and double fisted to the jaw.
There. I summed up the whole fight. You keep touting it, but where the hell is the Punisher's skill? He's a good fighter. He's vicious, he's brutal, he's powerful, he has a great damage soak...but..he's BASIC.
MK is fighting the same way as Frank. When MK uses a punch its skill but when Frank does its basic. There is no difference between the way that MK and Punisher are fighting were are you getting the distinction from....where?
Originally posted by jinzin
Okay lets get a few things straight here... moonknight as cool as he may look and act is no second tier martial artist. He's third tier tops. He doesn't have the consistency of accomplished feats of skill speed and strategy that most MA's have on a daily basis. And frankly he's had major issues with guys like night thrasher pfffft.
Well not everybody thinks that Night Thrasher is third tier either.
Originally posted by Hercules
New Warriors #23 I think that was (may have been 22, it was the during the "Nothing but the truth" storyline, where Tai turns out to be evil)Team was the folding circle, consisting of:
The Big Guy was Bloodstrike, big bruiser, went toe to toe with Rage I would say he was a class 80.
The flying woman was Silk Fever, pryokinetic powers
Then there was Left hand, could use the Dark Force in offensive blasts
Smiling Tiger, Wolverine rip off, enhanced, speed, agility and claws.
The there was Midnights Fire, enhanced speed, awesome martial artist, able to punch through Thrashers armour with his fists.
Thrash held them all until Midnight, blind sided him, Thrasher is way underrated, when he fought the Punisher he managed to stab in through the thigh and Frank said how good he was.
In fact the only thing that saved Frank was he shot him with a submachine gun at point blank range breaking his ribs through his armour.
Thrasher has taken Gideon (who he owned in hand to hand during four control) Gideon you may remember handled Crule pretty easily in X force and also trained Sunspot.
As he had no super human powers to copy it came down to skill, Thrash was better.
With the Warriors, he has taken on Terrax, Juggernaut, Sphinx, in the Spiderman/new Warriors annual, he fought Boomerang and Blacklash at the same time and held his own.
He went one on one with an assassin called Bengal who was an expert Martial artist at one point he was involved in a three way fight with Punisher and Bengal.
He taken Aardwolf one on one, who was another feral, enhanced speed and strength, with claws and teeth type guy.
Hes gone up against the FF along with the Warriors, was quick enough to grab and flip Nova when he came at him full throttle.
He took on Midnights Fire one on one and beat him, there are lots more examples of him showing his skill but thats all I can think of, off the top of my head.
There is nothing to suggest he is far below Nightwing, skills wise and his armour and the gadgets it has, gives him an advantage.
I will see if I can find some scans on the net, as I have no scanner but this should be a close fight, Thrasher is similar to Batman, in that he lost his parents when he was very young and has been training all his life to fight crime.
He is also backed by a vast personal fortune, is a tactician and pretty intelligent (although not on Bruce's level) and likes to use gadgets and isn't afraid to fight dirty.
I could see this being very, very close.
Originally posted by Hercules
Tai enhanced his Brain, he can't be read telepathicaly, not even by telepath's as high as the White Queen.Thrasher was also trained from a child, by Chord and Tai, Tai who was a master martial artist with enhanced speed and strength (she hit Beef of the helions and cut him and he didn't even see her move) she turned out to be a very powerful Superhuman who fought the Folding Circle and the New Warriors at the same time.
Tai in fact was the reason Thrasher came into being, she forced Chord into killing his parents so they could forge him into a weapon and he would gather a team of super humans together to so she could use their energies to make herself immortal.
Chord was a vietnam vet and the father of Sil and Midnights fire, good tactian and fire arms specialist.
Nightwing is more skillful but not by as far as some people think, 7/10 is underestimating Thrasher.
EDIT: oh and Thrasher was dodgng bullets and fighting crime as a teenager too, the New Warriors was a team full of Teen's in fact.
Originally posted by Soljer
His fighting skill like punisher's is from above average military h2h tutilage... but it doesn't exceed that.
Well I have given my case for NT.
Originally posted by jinzin
Hence: punisher's also a third tier in martial arts skill...like soljer's pointed out, his fighting style is brutal and effective, but it's not refined, it's not excessive of a guy like moon night, and it doesn't hold a candle to more notable MA's like iron fist, captain America, or shang chi.
Serioulsy what did he point out. MK was fighting the same way as Punsiher but somehow Franks moves where basic but Mk's where not.
Originally posted by jinzin
Though it's not a canon example I think that it's suitable to note that 2 of the several times batman and punisher have gotten into it with one another bat's has basically curbed him.
Well Batman is top tier and its not canon.
Originally posted by jinzin
There seems to be a pretty well renowned agreement that frank is dangerous but he's not near top tier in the martial arts department.
I suppose a more suitable example would stem from the several times that daredevil has pretty much leveled him without much of an issue.. most times that frank starts to get any upper hand on dd it's from prep or cis working against dd.And then there's spiderman. Frank lands hits on spiderman to be sure... but any h2h fight with spiderman has lasted as good as 1 offensive hit before things look grim for Castle. Hardcore MA's like Shang Chi, or steel dragon tend to give spiderman all hell in an up close fight... Punisher's are more reminiscent of someone trying to run away.
Well this is the thing I think its because hes badly written. Should Apoc duck from a table thrown by Namor? Should Deadpool be able to beat Taskmaster in handcuffs. My point is if hes well written he should not get curbstomped by DD.
1. If you look at his earlier appearances eventhough DD was beating him, Punisher was still hanging in there with skill and no prep. Hell some fights you see DD beating up Frank and Frank has taken more punishment.
2. Punisher has evaded a suprise attack from Cap used his skill to get out of it and deflected his shield and stoped it from coming back with his feet.
3. Hes beaten up Bullseye (second tier) with skill.
4. Ok I dont know about MK but he has a good showing against Black Widow who is secodn tier
Originally posted by Soljer
And, with Jinzin, we have another vote for Punisher as third tier, a vote for moon knight as third tier (which I support), a vote for Night Thrasher as third tier, and a vote for Sabretooth usually appearing as third tier.Unless I'm wrong. I mean, I don't want to put words in your mouth, Jin. Just how it appeared to me.
Well if you put MK in third tier I might have to agree with putting Frank in third tier because then there doesnt simply seem to be enough evidence to prove that Frank could be second tier.
Im gonna try and find some stuff on MK and NT before I change my mind.
My problem is I think DD should be top tier.
I guess you could argue that Rhino should beat certain opponents but he doesnt.
Originally posted by jinzin
that's kind of a joke of a comparison...i mean T'challa showed some "surprising" levels of speed to wolverine.. it doesn't mean a damned thing though..
It does if it comes from training.
Originally posted by jinzin
I mean lets face it deathstroke did the same thing to wolverine in terms of having surprising speed.. did it help him win a fight with wolverine? hell no...
Well from what I know is this...alot of DS's skill comes from enhancements. BP has alot more skill and speed. The reason that Wolverine could have won is because DS wasnt skilled enough. Furthermore it would help if I could see the fight because from what I could see BP made Wolverine look kinda dumb.
DS could have been fast but not that fast.
Originally posted by jinzin
How about Speed Demon? nope...
Is Speed Demon an MA if Speed Demon was an MA it could be argued that he could win. The reason why Speed Demon lost is becaue he couldnt take a shot on the chin. If BP got hit on the chin he would carry on fighting.
Originally posted by jinzin
Not to mention the fact that wolverine very nearly killed black panther back in CoC,
Yeah and Wolverine got one shoted by DD with a pressure point.
Originally posted by jinzin
and just recently a very weakened Sabretooth had BP dead to rights after 5 panals and BP even landed 2 blows from an outright sneak attack on sabes. 😬
That could be argued that its a low showing as I said before Wolverine has been one shoted by DD every MA has low showings.
no wolverine being one shotted by DD was PIS. Oh and by the way were DD aimed there is no pressure point. Center neck were he hit was the adams apple.......which would have healed instantly.......
so no BP surpizing wolverine with speed means BP is more skilled? Surprizing some one with speed has to do with your speed not skill........
Originally posted by capt it up
no wolverine being one shotted by DD was PIS. Oh and by the way were DD aimed there is no pressure point. Center neck were he hit was the adams apple.......which would have healed instantly.......
Bro from what I could see it was a pressure point. I dont think DD should one shot Wolverine but my point is that its a low showing. Just because it happened doesnt mean that it should. DD might be able to take down Wolverine but after a long fight.
Originally posted by capt it up
so no BP surpizing wolevrien with speed means BP is more skilled? Surprizing some one with speed has to do with your speed not skill........
Part of MA training is increasing your speed, so yes it is to do with skill because speed is part of MA.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Bro from what I could see it was a pressure point.
Originally posted by Alfheim
I dont think DD should one shot Wolverine but my point is that its a low showing.
No what it was, was a PIS event that should never have been written along with the rest of the arch.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Part of MA training is increasing your speed, so yes it is to do with skill because speed is part of MA.
MA has to do with how skilled you are at fighting.
speed is merely how fast a person is. If speed ment you were a good fighter then flash would be the greatest fighter a alive......
Originally posted by capt it up
if BP got hit in the chin while moving hundreds of miles of hour he would not have been getting back up he would have been likly serously hurt.......or death........
Ok
Originally posted by capt it up
Also speed demon is a martial artist he did enter blood sport tourament.....
He entered a blood tournament that doesnt mean hes an MA. Spiderman enetered a wrestling match but hes not a wrestler hes superhuman. Considering Speed Demons speed he could enter it without any training. Theres nowhere on his bio to say that he has an MA training....but it does state that he used throwing knives in the contest but apart from that I cant see any evidence to say that he has other MA training.
Originally posted by Alfheim
OkHe entered a blood tournament that doesnt mean hes an MA. Spiderman enetered a wrestling match but hes not a wrestler hes superhuman. Considering Speed Demons speed he could enter it without any training. Theres nowhere on his bio to say that he has an MA training....but it does state that he used throwing knives in the contest but apart from that I cant see any evidence to say that he has other MA training.
I was always under the asumption he had some formal training though far from a skilled fighter
Originally posted by capt it up
You saw a pressure point? Really please enlighten me on how you saw this pressure point? First of all were he aimed and hit was right were the adams apple is. The wolverine ahd trouble breathing which again would have been caused by having your adam's apple knock in. No pressure points I have ever seen cause you to be unable to breath.......
Well DD hit Mr Hyde in the chest as well. Assumling that both Mr Hyde and Wolverine have superhuman durability and DD does not ahve superhuman strength im assuming it was some wierd pressure point.
Originally posted by capt it up
No what it was, was a PIS event that should never have been written along with the rest of the arch.
Well I think he can do that but not so easily.
Originally posted by capt it up
No speed is an attribute.MA has to do with how skilled you are at fighting.
Wrong. Lets put it this way. Who do you thinks faster a professional boxer or doctor? Please give your reasons.
Originally posted by capt it up
speed is merely how fast a person is. If speed ment you were a good fighter then flash would be the greatest fighter a alive......
Theres a difference Flash got his powers from getting hit by lightning. Some characters get speed from MA training eg Shang Chi. This is why Spiderman is bottom alot of his skill is from his powers not training.
Originally posted by capt it up
I would not know I don't read speed demon........I was always under the asumption he had some formal training though far from a skilled fighter
Well there you go then.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Well DD hit Mr Hyde in the chest as well. Assumling that both Mr Hyde and Wolverine have superhuman durability and DD does not ahve superhuman strength im assuming it was some wierd pressure point.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Well I think he can do that but not so easily.
Originally posted by Alfheim
Wrong. Lets put it this way. Who do you thinks faster a professional boxer or doctor? Please give your reasons.
First of all speed does not make you more skilled it makes you faster…….
A sprinter would be a lot faster then a boxer and yet the boxer would be far more skilled…….
Originally posted by Alfheim
Theres a difference Flash got his powers from getting hit by lightning. Some characters get speed from MA training eg Shang Chi. This is why Spiderman is bottom alot of his skill is from his powers not training.
Spidermans not skilled at fighting……..
Furthermore
http://img195.imageshack.us/my.php?image=19wx.jpg
http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/323/25fbthrk2.jpg
http://img141.imageshack.us/img141/3250/37gfgj9.jpg
Wolverine looks pretty much otuclassed to me and thats the fisrt time hes done it. He outclassed Wolverine in speed in a second encounter. We can see from the scans that BP is using MA skill, so logic dictates the second encounter was MA skill too.
Originally posted by capt it up
Hyde does not have a superhuman healing factor…..Also wolverine has enchanced durability he not hyde level of durable. Why are you assuming it some weird pressure, because you can not admit when you are wrong? He hit him in the center of the throat were the adams apple is and wolverine was unable to gasp for air…….becuase is air passage was being effected…….. There are also to my knowledge, are no kinds of pressure points that effect your breathing and as I can see my knowledge on pressure points vastly out weights yours. It simple, DD hit the adams apple and it block wolverines air way simple as that. However it PIS since the adams apple should have healed instantly and wolverine would have no need to gasp for air.
The point is this how do you think DD one shoted Mr Hyde. It was obvoulsy a pressur point because DD isnt strong enough. Its a comic book in the Mu there are probably pressure points in the neck.
Originally posted by capt it upWell he can’t. It would not work it was PIS simple as that. Now with that said DD can beat wolverine, but not in the fashion that was provided.
Well Us agent has done it.
Originally posted by capt it upNo I am not. You really have no idea about MA yet you are obsessed with martial arts characters…….
First of all speed does not make you more skilled it makes you faster…….
A sprinter would be a lot faster then a boxer and yet the boxer would be far more skilled…….
Yes but the point is that a Boxer would be faster than your average person due to his training. BP is an MA therefore his speed comes from his training. The Flashs speed comes from his powers.
Originally posted by capt it upThere is no difference speed is speed. Skill is skill. Speed does not effect how skilled you are. It may effect who wins a fight, but not who is the more skilled………
It does if you gained speed from MA training that contriobutes to skill. Dodging an opponent is part of skill.
Originally posted by capt it up
Spidermans not skilled at fighting…….
Neither is speed demon.....thats my point......duhhhhhh!!!!! Speed demon has superhuman speed thats what makes him skilled.
P.S. If somebody can find away of enlarging my second scan please do.
List update.
Current Hierarchy
Cosmic Tier: (Universal Martial Artists)
Gamora, Karate Kid, Mantis, Midnight Sun, Thanos
Uber Tier: (Revered Martial Artists)
O Sensei, Ogun, Stick
Top Tier: ("Greatest Martial Artists"😉
Batgirl (Cassandra Cain), Batman, Bronze Tiger, Captain America, Connor Hawke, Constantine Drakon, Iron Fist, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi, Shen Kuei (The Cat), Taskmaster, Wolverine
Second Tier: (Master Martial Artists)
Agent X, Azrael, Black Canary, Black Panther, Black Widow, Bullseye, Cable, Daredevil, David Cain, Deadpool, Deathstroke, Echo, Elektra, Eric Killmonger, Gorgon, Green Arrow, Karnak, Natas, Nick Fury, Nightwing, Ra's al Ghul, Ravager, Red Hood, Red Skull, Silver Samurai, Wildcat (Ted Grant), Winter Soldier, Wonder Woman, X-23
Third Tier: (Highly Skilled Martial Artists)
Arsenal, Bane, Blade, Doctor Strange, Hercules, Kingpin, Lady Deathstrike, Midnighter, Mister America (Tex Thomson), Moon Knight, Night Thrasher, The Question, Punisher, Psylocke, Robin, Sabretooth, Shadowcat, Speedy (Mia Dearden), US Agent
Fourth Tier: (Trained Martial Artist)
Batgirl (Barbara Gordon), Black Cat, Colleen Wing, Colossus, Cyclops, Gambit, Misty Knight, Mystique, She-Hulk, Starfire, Storm, Thing
Accomplished Fighter: (Little formal training/Some Skill)
Beast, Catwoman, Luke Cage, Spider-Man
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proposed Changes
[Alfheim]:
Kingpin to Second Tier: 1 (Alfheim) / 4 (Soljer, marvelprince, jinzin and I)
Black Panther to take the remaining Marvel Top Tier spot: 1 (Alfheim) /
[marvelprince]:
Night Thrasher to Second Tier: 2 (mp) / 3 (Soljer, jinzin and I)
Elektra to the remaining Marvel Top Tier spot: 3 (mp, Accel, jinzin) / 1 (Soljer)
[Devil Lance]: Black Canary to replace Connor Hawke: 1 (DL) / 1 (mp)
[jinzin]: Robin to Second: 1 (jinzin) / 2 (Wally West, Soljer)
Gorgon to Uber: 1 (jinzin) / 1 (capt)
or Gorgon to the remaining Marvel Top Tier spot: 1 (jinzin) / 1 (capt)
-Instituted the following proposed changes:
Question to Third Tier: 3 (mp, Soljer, jinzin) / 0
Moon Knight to Third: 4 (Soljer, mp, jinzin and I) / 0
Sabretooth to Third Tier: 4 (jinzin, V, Soljer & I) / 1 (capt)
-The following proposed changes have been defeated.
Punisher to Second Tier: 1 (Alfheim) / 6 (jinzin, Nataku, V, Soljer, marvelprince and I)
-Recent additions: Speedy, O Sensei, Wildcat and Mister America.
-If there are no other votes in favour of Kingpin's movement soon, it will be considered defeated. Likewise Night Thrasher but to a lesser extent.
Comments:
-One open Marvel Top Tier spot. Two open Indie/Other spots.
-Is Mia really a Third Tier MA?
-The proposed structural change of expanding the Top Tier. I don't think it's warranted. The list currently has less than 90 characters. Having 28+ characters at the Top Tier or higher is too much, even the current 24 max. is more than I'd personally prefer.
-More changes? More additions? More votes? Did I miss anything?
