Originally posted by Soljer
She's done well, but hasn't she also been beaten down by Batman? 😕.
Theres a big difference between Between Black Canary Pre Gail Siomne and Black Canary Post Gail Simone
During Gail Simone's run on Birds of Prey she made Black Canry one of the top DC fighters by the the time Black Canry ha dlfet the BOP the people she trained with during the year before OYL were calling her the New Shiva after she wa s finsidhed trainig with them.
She took on an army of armed men by herself.
shes top tier
Originally posted by Soljer
There's got to be something more impressive to her name than that.Seriously - what street leveller HASN'T taken on an army of armed men?
EDIT: Also, if you propose to move her to top tier, who do you think she should replace?
more impressive okay
these scans are abput 2-3 years prior to OYL
and Lady Shiva already considers BC one of the Top Martial artists
http://img477.imageshack.us/my.php?image=birdsofprey63p033mp.jpg
http://img477.imageshack.us/my.php?image=birdsofprey63p049jq.jpg
http://img477.imageshack.us/my.php?image=birdsofprey63p055ps.jpg
http://img477.imageshack.us/my.php?image=birdsofprey63p065nw.jpg
http://img477.imageshack.us/my.php?image=birdsofprey63p075ht.jpg
http://img477.imageshack.us/my.php?image=birdsofprey63p101pu.jpg
now remember this is before she started training with Shiva
now shes even better
and who should she bump off
I'd say Conner Hawk
Both Constantine Darkon and Shiva have handed him his ass
I'd say BC is a bit better than him as of now
Originally posted by marvelprince
Didn't Shiva recently pop up in BoP and fight BC? Around the same time that Prometheus put a whoop ass on Shiva.I could be wrong though, I don't regularly read BoP.
Nope the two didn't fight they were actually in two different countries throughout that whole country.
Shiva was Filling in for BC while BC was training even more with people who trained Shiva.
Okay lets get a few things straight here... moonknight as cool as he may look and act is no second tier martial artist. He's third tier tops. He doesn't have the consistency of accomplished feats of skill speed and strategy that most MA's have on a daily basis. And frankly he's had major issues with guys like night thrasher pfffft.
His fighting skill like punisher's is from above average military h2h tutilage... but it doesn't exceed that.
Hence: punisher's also a third tier in martial arts skill...
like soljer's pointed out, his fighting style is brutal and effective, but it's not refined, it's not excessive of a guy like moon night, and it doesn't hold a candle to more notable MA's like iron fist, captain America, or shang chi.
Though it's not a canon example I think that it's suitable to note that 2 of the several times batman and punisher have gotten into it with one another bat's has basically curbed him. There seems to be a pretty well renowned agreement that frank is dangerous but he's not near top tier in the martial arts department.
I suppose a more suitable example would stem from the several times that daredevil has pretty much leveled him without much of an issue.. most times that frank starts to get any upper hand on dd it's from prep or cis working against dd.
And then there's spiderman. Frank lands hits on spiderman to be sure... but any h2h fight with spiderman has lasted as good as 1 offensive hit before things look grim for Castle. Hardcore MA's like Shang Chi, or steel dragon tend to give spiderman all hell in an up close fight... Punisher's are more reminiscent of someone trying to run away.
Now as for Sabretooth.
He has the POTENTIAL to be first or second tier but he's much like venom.. when the going gets rough he tends to go into "rock and roll" mode and forget fighting skill altogether.
He doesn't have a wide variety of feats that prove his skill in h2h combat.. nothing that would put him in the league of say a guy like captain America or anything, how could he? his appearances in actual combat have been relatively limited, and he's almost always defecting to his blood lust .... Though he does have some feats and suggestions that put him well into second tier, as well as other evidence that suggests first tier... his CIS will always hold him back in actual skill level.
I'd say he's third tier like moonknight and punisher more often than not.. Sometimes, when he's trying he's hanging in the second tier bracket.. but it's not on a consistent enough basis to classify him as such.
Note: He has outfought kitty pride who's had a lifetime of training from ogun, as well as years of training from wolverine.
he's outfought Russian super soldiers using grappling maneuvers.
He's outfought wolverine and didn't let wolverine make ONE bone on bone blow.
in a fight with psylocke the AOA sabes pretty much manhandled her in h2h skills.
But most times he's EXACTLY like punisher, in that he relies on the fact that he's a tank more than his skill... basically because his skill's an unnecessary asset for him during most occasions. 😬
Robin's definitely in the second tier of fighting skill, red hood I'd say is also in the same bracket.. just on the higher end of it.. he's someplace in between 2nd and 1st tier.
And, with Jinzin, we have another vote for Punisher as third tier, a vote for moon knight as third tier (which I support), a vote for Night Thrasher as third tier, and a vote for Sabretooth usually appearing as third tier.
Unless I'm wrong. I mean, I don't want to put words in your mouth, Jin. Just how it appeared to me.
Originally posted by Soljer
And, with Jinzin, we have another vote for Punisher as third tier, a vote for moon knight as third tier (which I support), a vote for Night Thrasher as third tier, and a vote for Sabretooth usually appearing as third tier.Unless I'm wrong. I mean, I don't want to put words in your mouth, Jin. Just how it appeared to me.
pretty much in agreement with this post here...
Though I think from highest skill in the third tier to lowest it goes:
Sabretooth
Moonknight (but only slightly>😉
Punisher = Night Thrasher
Originally posted by marvelprince
I agree wit Sol and Jin. I don't really want to see MK demoted but when you look at the other members in the 2nd tier then he should be dropped.Elektra needs to go up a level. Question need to move up at least one and Kingpin should get dropped one imo
Elektra definitely seems to be a top tier fighter..
she's not uber tier as her skill is high but she does have a tendancy to rely on powers that don't have much to do with skill whatsoever....
and kingpin's probably a low second tier to mid third tier..
it's hard to distinguish kingpin's skill since most of his impressive MA showings has him catching people off their guard due to his size.. as well as the fact that it's hard to tell if his size is what sets his advantage in h2h fights rather than skill...
i don't seem him as acrobatic or graceful as moonknight but he's a lot more devistating.. the question is: is it due to skill?
Originally posted by Alfheim
Well if you still think that Elecktra can beat BP after evidence was shown that BP can out speed Wolverine on Two occassion then clearly you're not an objective person and you're opinion doesnt count....but oh well thats life.
that's kind of a joke of a comparison...
i mean T'challa showed some "surprising" levels of speed to wolverine.. it doesn't mean a damned thing though...
I mean lets face it deathstroke did the same thing to wolverine in terms of having surprising speed.. did it help him win a fight with wolverine? hell no...
How about Speed Demon? nope...
Not to mention the fact that wolverine very nearly killed black panther back in CoC,
and just recently a very weakened Sabretooth had BP dead to rights after 5 panals and BP even landed 2 blows from an outright sneak attack on sabes. 😬
pretty craptastic eample on your part..
yeah him thinking that elektra beating BP definitely makes his opinion invalid... 🙄
My things is that every ish I have with Kingpin fighting or training has him winning or doing well cause of his sheer size and strength. I can name numerous times I've seen him lifting massive weights and literally crushing opponents, but can't recall any sort of skill in it. According to him he was always a big kid and used his size a weapon since then. Not too much skill involved there
Originally posted by Alfheim
Cosmic tier: (Can damage class100s with no problem)
Mantis, Gamora, Midnight Sun, Karate KidUber tier: (Better than the greatest martial artists)
Stick, Gorgon, Midnighter, Deathstroke (maybe, not sure).Top tier: (Are usually given the title "is one of the greatest martial artists in the world."😉
Cap, DD, Wolverine, Shang Chi, Black Panther, Batman, Deadpool, Nightwing, Red Hood, Robin, Green Arrow, Taskmaster, Elecktra (not sure about this one), Kingpin, Shin Kuei, Iron Fist, Lady Shiva, Batgirl, Conner HawkeSecond tier: (Close behind the best)
Punisher, Black Widow, USA Agent, Nick Fury, Azarel (mainly brute strength rather than skill), Bullseye, Moon Knight, Sabretooth, Night Thrasher (is very good but he does use a hyrdraulic suit...so thats cheating a bit)Third tier: (Has MA training and experience, but not particularly good.....meh!)
Agents of ShieldAccomplished fighter: (May have alot of experience but very little formal training.
Spiderman, Luke Cage, Beast
I'd probably put Deathstroke in top tier. His stats are similar to Captain America. He has lower skill in hand to hand combat but makes up for it in versatility in weapons skills. He's more skilled with a variety of weapons combat then others as with swords, nets, knives, guns etc etc.
