Ranks for MAs

Originally posted by StylishSmurph
No, Guy has H2H feats too. I was just wondering if that should contribute to his placement or not.

And it's more than pressure points. It's striking any point on the body to affect any inner mechanism, essentially.

I put up the Karate Kid disclaimer because I saw the argument that, as Guy describes the technique, it could possibly not be a MA-honed skill (Guy can levitate too, through his studies, but obviously that has no bearing on this thread), so I was simply pointing out that Karate Kid's done similar things (not that he's limited to them), that contribute to his placing in this thread.

Ah. I see what you mean, however from the scan you provided, I don't think it goes to show anything as far as pure fighting skill is concerned. He could very well be deserving of his second tier position as X said he was in at this very moment. Imo, however, the scan with him against Tony Stark doesn't justify it alone.

Originally posted by batdude123
Ah. I see what you mean, however from the scan you provided, I don't think it goes to show anything as far as pure fighting skill is concerned. He could very well be deserving of his second tier position as X said he was in at this very moment. Imo, however, the scan with him against Tony Stark doesn't justify it alone.

---------------------------------

Anyways, seeing as a verdict hasn't been reached on whether training to do what Guy can do counts as MA skill or not, I'll post more feats from the same fight.

Causes a migraine with a touch-
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g126/SpunkySmurph/Marvel/Scans/migrainetouch.jpg

Paralyzes Iron Man. It was supposed to be a delayed pressure point, so he hit him before Tony put on the armor.
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g126/SpunkySmurph/Marvel/Scans/delaypressurepoint.jpg

Originally posted by StylishSmurph
I was just asking if the technique was usable. I wasn't debating Guy for 2nd, because he was already there. srug

---------------------------------

Anyways, seeing as a verdict hasn't been reached on whether training to do what Guy can do counts as MA skill or not, I'll post more feats from the same fight.

Causes a migraine with a touch-
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g126/SpunkySmurph/Marvel/Scans/migrainetouch.jpg

Paralyzes Iron Man. It was supposed to be a delayed pressure point, so he hit him before Tony put on the armor.
http://i55.photobucket.com/albums/g126/SpunkySmurph/Marvel/Scans/delaypressurepoint.jpg

Here's the thing though, when talking about one's fighting ability, it's about how effective the technique is, not how many fancy moves he can pull off in the middle of a fight. That's the reason why Wolverine and Captain America are top tier. Both are brawlers, but they get the job done.

Mr. Sensitive touching Tony Stark in a few key places (and it looks like Stark isn't even fighting back in the scans you provided) to give him a headache, imo, doesn't lend credit to his fighting ability. Back to my previous analogy, what he did to Tony was akin to what an acupuncturist does. It may not be exactly the same thing, but it's close enough to where the analogy holds weight.

Now, show me him doing the same thing in the middle of battle against a highly trained martial artist, and I'd say you have a point.

Originally posted by batdude123
Here's the thing though, when talking about one's fighting ability, it's about how effective the technique is, not how many fancy moves he can pull off in the middle of a fight. That's the reason why Wolverine and Captain America are top tier. Both are brawlers, but they get the job done.

Mr. Sensitive touching Tony Stark in a few key places (and it looks like Stark isn't even fighting back in the scans you provided) to give him a headache, imo, doesn't lend credit to his fighting ability. Back to my previous analogy, what he did to Tony was akin to what an acupuncturist does. It may not be exactly the same thing, but it's close enough to where the analogy holds weight.

Now, show me him doing the same thing in the middle of battle against a highly trained martial artist, and I'd say you have a point.

Current Hierarchy [184]

Cosmic Tier: (Transcendent Martial Artists) [3]
Gamora, Karate Kid, Mantis

Uber Tier: (Unearthly Martial Artists) [9]
Captain Mar-Vell, Kirigi (DC), Mandarin, Moondragon, O-Sensei, Ogun, Stick, Temugin, Thanos

Top Tier: ("Greatest Martial Artists"😉 [18]
Batgirl (Cassandra Cain), Batman, Black Canary, Bronze Tiger, Captain America, Connor Hawke, Constantine Drakon, Daredevil, Elektra, Iron Fist, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi, Shen Kuei (The Cat), Snake-Eyes, Storm Shadow, Taskmaster, Wolverine

Second Tier: (Master Martial Artists) [55]
Adam Warlock, Agent X, Azrael, Backlash, Black Panther, Black Widow, Bullseye, Cable, Champion of the Universe, Cheshire, Crossbones, Daken, David Cain, Deadpool, Deathstroke, Domino, Donatello, Echo, Eric Killmonger, Gorgon (Tomi Shishido), Green Arrow, Grifter, Hawkman, Jason Blood, Judomaster (Hadley Jagger), Karnak, Lady Deathstrike, Leonardo, Magnus, Merlyn (DC), Michaelangelo, Midnight Sun, Mr Sensitive, Natas, Nick Fury, Nightwing, Orion, Prometheus, Puck, Ra's al Ghul, Raphael, Ravager, Red Hood, Red Skull, Silver Samurai, Steel Serpent, Stone, Talia al Ghul, Twelve Brothers in Silk, White Tiger (Angela del Toro), Wildcat (Ted Grant), Winter Soldier, Wonder Woman, Vandal Savage, X-23, Zealot

Third Tier: (Highly Skilled Martial Artists) [61]
Ares, Arsenal, Bane, Beta Ray Bill, Black Bolt, Black Cat, Black Knight (Dane Whitman), Blade, Blue Beetle (Ted Kord), Colleen Wing, Damian Wayne, Doctor Mid-Nite, Doctor Strange, Donna Troy, Drax, Duke(GI Joe), Grendel (Hunter Rose), Hawkeye, Heavy Duty(GI Joe), Hercules, Huntress, Katana, KGBeast, Kingpin, Lady Vic, Lobo, Loki, Matsu'o Tsurayaba, Midnighter, Mister America (Tex Thomson), Mister Terrific, Mockingbird, Moon Knight, Mystique, Namor, Night Thrasher, Nightcrawler, Omega Red, Onyx, Psylocke, Punisher, The Question, Revanche, Robin (Tim Drake), Sabretooth, Shadowcat, Shatterstar, Shrike IV (Boone), Speedy (Mia Dearden), Spider-Woman (Jessica Drew), Stacy X, Terry McGinnis, Thena, Thor, US Agent, V, Viper (Madame Hydra), Wild Child, Wong, Yukio

Fourth Tier: (Trained Martial Artists) [28]
Batgirl (Barbara Gordon), Batwoman, Beast, Blink, Blue Devil, Boom Boom, Cannonball, Carol Danvers, Catwoman, Colossus, Cyclops, Falcon, Gambit, Hawkgirl, Jamie Madrox, Jubilee, Luke Cage, Mister Fantastic, Misty Knight, She-Hulk, Starfire, Storm, Strong Guy, Superman, Tarantula, Thing, Zauriel

Accomplished Fighter: (Little formal training/Some Skill) [10]
Apocalypse, Grace Choi, Hulk, Invisible Woman, Iron Man, Joker, Monet St. Croix, Scarlet Witch, Spider-Man, Wonder Man

-----------------------------------

Proposed Changes (Votes For / Votes Against)
Cable to third: 4 [V, jrod, llag, Trickster] / 5 [Smurph, MM, Soljer, Capt, Accel]
Duke to second: 1 [capt] / 1 [llag]
Heavy Duty to second: 1 [capt] / 1 [llag]
Hercules to second: 4 [V, llag, Trickster, MM] / 4 [FM, Smurph, Capt, Accel]
Jubilee to third 2 [Smurph, Cresh] / 1 [llag]
Kingpin to second: 5 [V, jrod, srank, capt, Accel] / 3 [llag, Macoy, Smurph]
Mantis down to uber: 5 [DD1, Soljer, Srank, llag, Accel] / 4 [bran, Smurph, dg, MM]
Warlock to uber: 4 [V, Smurph, bran, ll] / 2 [srank, Accel]

Changes passed/defeated:
Champion to cosmic defeated: 2 [Alfheim, psychogundam] / 5 [Soljer, X, FM, bran, llag]
Mar-Vell to uber passed: 4 [MM, Smurph, bran, llag] / 1 [srank]
Domino to Second passed: 4 [llag, Smurph, jrodslam, MM] / 1 [srank]
Stick to second defeated: 1 [capt] / 4 [Soljer, DD1, llagrok, MM]
And I'll add my votes to pass:
Black Cat to third: 2 [MM, Accel] / 0
Strong Guy to fourth: 2 [llag, jrod] / 0

-----------------------------

Additions:
Yukio

-----------------------------

Notes:
-Could people please vote on the existing proposed changes instead of making suggestions for others, as I don't think any more should be added until that list is cut down.

-We have two 'non marvel/dc top tier' spots (currently occupied by Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow).
NB The top tier are ~10% of the total hierarchy top tier and under. The bulk of the list are Marvel and DC so the bulk of the top tier spots go to Marvel and DC.
Feel free to make nominations, or vote for Zealot or any other character that is neither marvel nor DC to supplant these two spots.
-GI Joe - leave 'em or remove 'em?

-I'll reiterate what Soljer posted: If you feel a character should be moved up or down, please do me the favor of actually stating such, so that I do not have to guess intentions. For example, Capt mentioning "Jubilee has been trained by a top tier fighter" may imply he supports the move, but it's hard to tell.

------------------------------

Reminder to self:
Add Wildchild in there somewhere. And possibly Doop.

Add proposed change of:
Stick to replace The Cat
Stick to replace Taskmaster

in place of the defeated Stick to second vote.

Not sure what to do about tied votes... maybe leave them as the status quo?

Just out of curiosity, what is the justification for putting Mar-Vell that high on the list?

Thoughts:

I cannot recall whether this has been previously brought up or not, but is there any reason to have the 'accomplished fighter' section?

Doesn't (almost) everything not fitting into one of the above categories automatically fall into the 'accomplished fighter' tier? How many superheroes don't have enough melee experience to be considered at least there?

Further, what in the hell are the Hulk, Apocalypse, and Spiderman doing in a martial artist ranking?

Also;
Duke to second
Heavy Duty to second

-Who else reads GI Joe? Does anyone besides Capt and Llag even have a vague idea of where these guys belong?

Hercules to second

-Against. Hercules is better than Thor in hand to hand combat, but not by enough to be increased an entire tier. I think he's much more appropriately placed currently than with the likes of T'Challa, Bullseye, Nick Fury, Winter Soldier, R'as, ....you get the idea.

Jubilee to third

-Undecided. In view of helping us approve or defeat this movement, would the supporters mind restating what they believe makes her a third tier martial artist?

Kingpin to second

-Against. His 'skill feat' against armed red and black belts is no more impressive than things pretty much any other third tier does day to day. Not to mention the fact that his vaunted 'skill' has largely been ignored in present times in favor of his bulk and surprising speed.

Mantis down to uber

-Against. I am currently 'for' this change, and would like to 'switch sides' as it were. I cannot recall why I believed Mantis should go down, but unless I remember, consider me on the other side of the fence.

Warlock to uber

-For.

Stick to first tier, replacing either the Shen Kuei or Taskmaster

-Against. I believe very much so that every marvel top tier belongs there. However, I am not very knowledgable about Stick. It is possible that he does, in fact, belong in the top tier; it does seem a bit odd to place him alongside the likes of Mandarin and Temugin, after all. I'm unsure about Stick's proper placement - but am confident about the placement of the current top-tiers. Consider me, currently, automatically against removing Captain America, Daredevil, Elektra, Iron Fist, Shang Chi, Shen Kuei, Taskmaster, or Wolverine.

Somewhat on the topic of changing the marvel top tiers - allow me to ask; how much value do we place upon non-direct-combat skill? As a martial arts technique, healing one's self or hypnotizing an opponent seems to be out of reach for the typical, down to earth showings of Captain America, Batman and Daredevil. I am not officially proposing moving Danny Rand to 'Uber,' but I earnestly believe it should be considered - at least just to throw the idea around. Few would disagree that he was top tier before his recent story-arc, nor would many disagree that the upgrades he's received during are considerable. Likewise with many of the Tournament's competitors. Where would being able to dissolve your body into insects via martial skill place you? Or being capable of punching with a hand that was just removed?

against the idea of IF to uber. He in my opinion has shown no more skill then any of the other top tiers and one arc is simply not enough to move him to uber.

Isn't Blade supposed to be in the Master area?

Originally posted by Soljer
Somewhat on the topic of changing the marvel top tiers - allow me to ask; how much value do we place upon non-direct-combat skill? As a martial arts technique, healing one's self or hypnotizing an opponent seems to be out of reach for the typical, down to earth showings of Captain America, Batman and Daredevil. I am not officially proposing moving Danny Rand to 'Uber,' but I earnestly believe it should be considered - at least just to throw the idea around. Few would disagree that he was top tier before his recent story-arc, nor would many disagree that the upgrades he's received during are considerable. Likewise with many of the Tournament's competitors. Where would being able to dissolve your body into insects via martial skill place you? Or being capable of punching with a hand that was just removed?

Batman's spiritual healing.

http://img108.imagevenue.com/view.php?loc=loc277&image=93c_batraining6.jpg

This guy teaches Batman the secret of Taoism where he can hypnotize his opponent's mind into thinking he's invisible.

http://img108.imagevenue.com/view.php?loc=loc293&image=a12_batao1.jpg

Originally posted by batdude123
Batman's spiritual healing.

http://img108.imagevenue.com/view.php?loc=loc277&image=93c_batraining6.jpg

This guy teaches Batman the secret of Taoism where he can hypnotize his opponent's mind into thinking he's invisible.

http://img108.imagevenue.com/view.php?loc=loc293&image=a12_batao1.jpg

Yes, you've posted those no less than three dozen times now, batdude. We are all very well aware of them, and I earnestly predicted this post. However;

Originally posted by Soljer
As a martial arts technique, healing one's self or hypnotizing an opponent seems to be out of reach for the typical, down to earth showings of Captain America, Batman and Daredevil.

Originally posted by Darth Martin
Isn't Blade supposed to be in the Master area?

Blade? Top tier?

I don't think so. When was that change supposed to be made?

Originally posted by Soljer
Yes, you've posted those less than three dozen times now, batdude. We are all very well aware of them, and I earnestly predicted this post. However;

That's probably the only time I've posted them outside of the Batman Respect Thread. 🙁

...........when does IF typically heal him self? or hypnotize people?

Originally posted by batdude123
That's probably the only time I've posted them outside of the Batman Respect Thread. 🙁

While I know for certain I've seen you post them on several occasions, technically, I had said "You've posted those less than..." (which has now been edited to the appropriate "You've posted those no less than...."😉, so, in all actuality, what you're saying doesn't disagree with what I said. 🙂.

😛.

Originally posted by batdude123
Batman's spiritual healing.

http://img108.imagevenue.com/view.php?loc=loc277&image=93c_batraining6.jpg

This guy teaches Batman the secret of Taoism where he can hypnotize his opponent's mind into thinking he's invisible.

http://img108.imagevenue.com/view.php?loc=loc293&image=a12_batao1.jpg

Logan has meditated to amp his healing factor.

He also been able to transfer his energy in order to fight off a spiritual creature.

I think DD myave have as well.

also both DD and elektra have shown TP abilties due to training

Originally posted by Battlehammer
also both DD and elektra has shown TP abilties due to training

Originally posted by Nod
Edit my friend. Edit.

why?