I feel there is a clear distinction between what I've pointed out, and what you're trying to counter with, Capt. I'd like to get a few more opinions on the matter, however.
Not to mention the fact that it'd also leave the perfect spot for Stick to move to.
*shrugs* Considering some of the facts I pointed out, I felt it was more than worth thinking about.
Originally posted by Soljer
While I know for certain I've seen you post them on several occasions, technically, I had said "You've posted those less than..." (which has now been edited to the appropriate "You've posted those no less than...."😉, so, in all actuality, what you're saying doesn't disagree with what I said. 🙂.😛.
I can't recall those times. 🙁
Originally posted by Battlehammer
Logan done similar things.Logan has meditated to amp his healing factor.
He also been able to transfer his energy in order to fight off a spiritual creature.
I think DD myave have as well.
Okay?
Originally posted by Soljer
I feel there is a clear distinction between what I've pointed out, and what you're trying to counter with, Capt. I'd like to get a few more opinions on the matter, however.Not to mention the fact that it'd also leave the perfect spot for Stick to move to.
*shrugs* Considering some of the facts I pointed out, I felt it was more than worth thinking about.
what?
whats the differences between what we said again?
also like I said IF aint no more skilled then any of the people in his tier. Nor is a single arc a good enough reason to move an idividual.
I think the "accomplished fighter" category was for those who have shown some skill and have been taught some martial arts, but not to the extent that any of the above tiers have and/or it isn't shown very often.
E.g. the Invisible Woman has some skill but then she wouldn't really fall into the likes of Thing or Barbara Gordon.
As for Apocalypse, Hulk and Spider-Man, I don't know about the latter two. I think Apocalypse was justified by his warrior past in his origin story.
With regard to the top tier, if the list reaches 200 another two top tier slots will be added - one for Marvel, one for DC.
Originally posted by SoljerHaven't we already made the ruling that non-combat techniques have no bearing on a Martial Arts tier, despite being derived from studies similar to martial arts?
Somewhat on the topic of changing the marvel top tiers - allow me to ask; how much value do we place upon non-direct-combat skill? As a martial arts technique, healing one's self or hypnotizing an opponent seems to be out of reach for the typical, down to earth showings of Captain America, Batman and Daredevil. I am not officially proposing moving Danny Rand to 'Uber,' but I earnestly believe it should be considered - at least just to throw the idea around. Few would disagree that he was top tier before his recent story-arc, nor would many disagree that the upgrades he's received during are [b]considerable. Likewise with many of the Tournament's competitors. Where would being able to dissolve your body into insects via martial skill place you? Or being capable of punching with a hand that was just removed? [/B]
Guy Smith can levitate
Ozymandias can catch a bullet
Elektra has gained telepathy
It's all the same thing, derived from similar ways. In fact, in those examples, I'd say it's even more relevant, because they're not dipping into an "ocean of chi", as Iron Fist is now able to do to accomplish those things. There's no powers to them, other than what they've derived from training and only training.
Anyways, I'm against it.
Originally posted by StylishSmurph
Haven't we already made the ruling that non-combat techniques have no bearing on a Martial Arts tier, despite being derived from studies similar to martial arts?Guy Smith can levitate
Ozymandias can catch a bullet
Elektra has gained telepathyIt's all the same thing, derived from similar ways. In fact, in those examples, I'd say it's even more relevant, because they're not dipping into an "ocean of chi", as Iron Fist is now able to do to accomplish those things. There's no powers to them, other than what they've derived from training and only training.
Anyways, I'm against it.
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
I think the "accomplished fighter" category was for those who have shown some skill and have been taught some martial arts, but not to the extent that any of the above tiers have and/or it isn't shown very often.E.g. the Invisible Woman has some skill but then she wouldn't really fall into the likes of Thing or Barbara Gordon.
As for Apocalypse, Hulk and Spider-Man, I don't know about the latter two. I think Apocalypse was justified by his warrior past in his origin story.
With regard to the top tier, if the list reaches 200 another two top tier slots will be added - one for Marvel, one for DC.
I realize the purpose of the tier. My qualm is the fact that, essentially, every character fits into the 'accomplished fighter' tier unless they are represented above it. Is this really appropriate for a ranking of martial artists?
To better convey my meaning - it'd be like compiling a list of rankings of herald levellers and then, at the bottom of the list including a "powerful mid-tiers" rank.
Ozymandias (Watchmen) for Second Tier.
I think. Maybe first, maybe third... I don't have my book with me to look back over feats at the moment.
If we keep the last tier, I'd volunteer Rorschach and Nite Owl II for it.
I think it could be good... but if Apocalypse hasn't shown h2h skill in the last few millenia of his life, I think he may have forgotten some.
Just saying.
Originally posted by StylishSmurph
Ozymandias (Watchmen) for Second Tier.I think. Maybe first, maybe third... I don't have my book with me to look back over feats at the moment.
He caught a bullet at point blank without enhanced reflexes or anything. That alone should put him somewhere on the list.
Destroying Rorschach in a fight without effort isn't too bad either.
Besides that I think the only person he fought was an thug.
It's hard to compare him to other MAs because there weren't any superhumans for him to test himself against.
Originally posted by Symmetric ChaosWell, he also destroyed Nite Owl II in the same fight, who was shown to have some H2H skill, and he was shown to predict all his opponents moves before they made them, which increases his skill.
He caught a bullet at point blank without enhanced reflexes or anything. That alone should put him somewhere on the list.
Destroying Rorschach in a fight without effort isn't too bad either.
Besides that I think the only person he fought was an thug.It's hard to compare him to other MAs because there weren't any superhumans for him to test himself against.
This is off memory, mind you, so I might be getting my facts wrong.
Current Hierarchy [188]
Cosmic Tier: (Transcendent Martial Artists) [3]
Gamora, Karate Kid, Mantis
Uber Tier: (Unearthly Martial Artists) [9]
Captain Mar-Vell, Kirigi (DC), Mandarin, Moondragon, O-Sensei, Ogun, Stick, Temugin, Thanos
Top Tier: ("Greatest Martial Artists"😉 [18]
Batgirl (Cassandra Cain), Batman, Black Canary, Bronze Tiger, Captain America, Connor Hawke, Constantine Drakon, Daredevil, Elektra, Iron Fist, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi, Shen Kuei (The Cat), Snake-Eyes, Storm Shadow, Taskmaster, Wolverine
Second Tier: (Master Martial Artists) [56]
Adam Warlock, Agent X, Azrael, Backlash, Black Panther, Black Widow, Bullseye, Cable, Champion of the Universe, Cheshire, Crossbones, Daken, David Cain, Deadpool, Deathstroke, Domino, Donatello, Echo, Eric Killmonger, Gorgon (Tomi Shishido), Green Arrow, Grifter, Hawkman, Jason Blood, Judomaster (Hadley Jagger), Karnak, Lady Deathstrike, Leonardo, Magnus, Merlyn (DC), Michaelangelo, Midnight Sun, Mr Sensitive, Natas, Nick Fury, Nightwing, Orion, Ozymandias (DC), Prometheus, Puck, Ra's al Ghul, Raphael, Ravager, Red Hood, Red Skull, Silver Samurai, Steel Serpent, Stone, Talia al Ghul, Twelve Brothers in Silk, White Tiger (Angela del Toro), Wildcat (Ted Grant), Winter Soldier, Wonder Woman, Vandal Savage, X-23, Zealot
Third Tier: (Highly Skilled Martial Artists) [62]
Ares, Arsenal, Bane, Beta Ray Bill, Black Bolt, Black Cat, Black Knight (Dane Whitman), Blade, Blue Beetle (Ted Kord), Colleen Wing, Damian Wayne, Doctor Mid-Nite, Doctor Strange, Donna Troy, Drax, Duke(GI Joe), Grendel (Hunter Rose), Hawkeye, Heavy Duty(GI Joe), Hercules, Huntress, Katana, KGBeast, Kingpin, Lady Vic, Lobo, Loki, Matsu'o Tsurayaba, Midnighter, Mister America (Tex Thomson), Mister Terrific, Mockingbird, Moon Knight, Mystique, Namor, Night Thrasher, Nightcrawler, Omega Red, Onyx, Psylocke, Punisher, The Question, Revanche, Robin (Tim Drake), Sabretooth, Shadowcat, Shatterstar, Shrike IV (Boone), Speedy (Mia Dearden), Spider-Woman (Jessica Drew), Stacy X, Terry McGinnis, Thena, Thor, Typhoid Mary, US Agent, V, Viper (Madame Hydra), Wild Child, Wong, Yukio
Fourth Tier: (Trained Martial Artists) [30]
Batgirl (Barbara Gordon), Batwoman, Beast, Blink, Blue Devil, Boom Boom, Cannonball, Carol Danvers, Catwoman, Colossus, Cyclops, Falcon, Gambit, Hawkgirl, Jamie Madrox, Jubilee, Luke Cage, Mister Fantastic, Misty Knight, Nite Owl II, Rorschach, She-Hulk, Starfire, Storm, Strong Guy, Superman, Tarantula, Thing, Zauriel
Accomplished Fighter: (Little formal training/Some Skill) [10]
Apocalypse, Grace Choi, Hulk, Invisible Woman, Iron Man, Joker, Monet St. Croix, Scarlet Witch, Spider-Man, Wonder Man
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Proposed Changes (Votes For / Votes Against)
Cable to third: 4 [V, jrod, llag, Trickster] / 5 [Smurph, MM, Soljer, Capt, Accel]
Duke to second: 1 [capt] / 1 [llag]
Heavy Duty to second: 1 [capt] / 1 [llag]
Hercules to second: 4 [V, llag, Trickster, MM] / 5 [Soljer, FM, Smurph, Capt, Accel]
Jubilee to third 2 [Smurph, Cresh] / 1 [llag]
Kingpin to second: 5 [V, jrod, srank, capt, Accel] / 4 [Soljer, llag, Macoy, Smurph]
Mantis down to uber: 4 [DD1, Srank, llag, Accel] / 5[bran, Smurph, dg, MM, Soljer]
Warlock to uber: 5 [Soljer V, Smurph, bran, ll] / 2 [srank, Accel]
Stick to replace Taskmaster: 1 [capt] / 1 [Soljer]
Stick to replace Shen Kuei: 1 [capt] / 1 [Soljer]
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Additions:
Typhoid Mary, Ozymandias (DC), Nite Owl II, Rorschach
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Notes:
-Could people please vote on the existing proposed changes instead of making suggestions for others, as I don't think any more should be added until that list is cut down.
-The last tier is being dissolved. Who should remain in the hierarchy (bumped to fourth) and who should be dropped completely?
-We have two 'non marvel/dc top tier' spots (currently occupied by Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow).
NB The top tier are ~10% of the total hierarchy top tier and under. The bulk of the list are Marvel and DC so the bulk of the top tier spots go to Marvel and DC.
Feel free to make nominations, or vote for Zealot or any other character that is neither marvel nor DC to supplant these two spots.
-GI Joe - leave 'em or remove 'em?
-I'll reiterate what Soljer posted: If you feel a character should be moved up or down, please do me the favor of actually stating such, so that I do not have to guess intentions. For example, Capt mentioning "Jubilee has been trained by a top tier fighter" may imply he supports the move, but it's hard to tell.
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