Ranks for MAs

Originally posted by xmarksthespot
Query: How much of Moon Knight winning against so-and-so is due to his moon abilities...?

And Mungi, I'm assuming since you're arguing for the move, you want to put an official vote down for it?

Not many, as his run in vol.1 he had no augmentation and that was when he took on Nick Fury and such. In MK vol.2 he got the strength upgrade, but lost it in start vol.3 [no reason for the loss, writer most likely just ignored it] but then later gained another strength upgrade near the end of the volume due to be infected with a demonic virus. Vol.4 and vol.5 he didn't have the upgrades. So overally most of is wins were not due to his moon abilities.

Yes put me down.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
What do you think Khonshu did for Moon Knight? Also no it is outragous to say she has more fighting experience then him

Not really since given the experience granted to her and moon nights age, it would grant her greater experience unless moon knight has been granted experience beyond his years.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
You would be wrong as Moon Knight was on a roll getting multiple blows in and the people watching even commented "Hey Fury is taking it hard" and forced him to flee

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Errrr? USAgent and Weapon Omega didn't even physically hit them. He schooled them with a bo-staff

Then weapon omega attacked jump at him after us-agent was already down and moon knight beat him.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Errr? Yes he did. He was taking on Weapon Omega and US Agent at the same time, and when he hit WO, Wolverine attacked him from behind and then MK batted him away like a child and then MK took on more Marvel heroes

Originally posted by King_Mungi
It's his reflexes that can help him win fights. Skills don't always mean you win all the time, as Hulk isn't the most skilled figther out there now is he?

Like I said earlier most characters of at one time or another a ridiculous feat of them fighting many hero’s at once.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
But you wanted Kitty Pryde on second tier earlier 😬

Originally posted by Battlehammer
No idea would you like to provide me with evidence of exactly what he did?

Not really since given the experience granted to her and moon nights age, it would grant her greater experience unless moon knight has been granted experience beyond his years.

Khonshu every so often gives Moon Knight visions and knowlege to accomplish his goals. He has done so over a dozen times and it's under the Visions section. He also gave him memories of ancinet Egypt. When Khonshu was more dominate

First off Moon Knight is older [considerbly], and prior to even becoming Moon Knight was in more combat situations then Kitty every did prior to meeting Ogun. To say Ogun tacked on aditional 20 years of fighting experience is wrong.

Originally posted by Battlehammer

Actually go count again. They land 4 hits on one another. Nick fury took it harder because moon knights physically stronger.

Errr? firstly Moon Knight dodges shots from Nick Fury and disarms him and then they briefly scuffle and then Moon Knight hits him twice in a row sending Fury to the ground and the people make the comment about Fury losing and then Fury runs away. If that's not an advantage over an oppoent I don't know what is. Also no this is vol.1 era, meaning Moon Knight did NOT have his strength boost.

Originally posted by Battlehammer

Actually all he did was hit us agent once and agent went down ( that guy has the worst luck, he beats individual like ronin and then gets dropped by the likes of capt and so on like a chump)

Then weapon omega attacked jump at him after us-agent was already down and moon knight beat him.

Moon Knight knows pressure points and has knocked out people with superhuman strength before. Stronger and more durable then USAgent ie. Shadow Knight. Who even later said the neck cluster Moon Knight hit him with nearly paralysed him.

http://i249.photobucket.com/albums/gg236/MoonKnight616/Marc_Spector_Moon_Knight_v3_37_-21.jpg

Errr? He was hitting USAgent while Omega was in mid-flight. USAgent was not on the ground yet

Originally posted by Battlehammer

Logan slashed him from behind true. And for some retarded reasons he did it in such away his arm went inbetween the boo staff. Moon night did not swat anything he throw him. All he did was throw him that far from showing equal skill or even a measure of skill.

Swat is basically flinging someone away from you, which is a throw. Errrr? it's very skilled as he was taking on Weapon Omega and US Agent at the same time and Wolverine attacked him from behind and he still had the good mind and toss him away. Then he went on to class with Gambit, Nova, Psylocke, She Hulk, Iron Man, etc.

Originally posted by Battlehammer

Yes and what do you think was helping moon knight?

Like I said earlier most characters of at one time or another a ridiculous feat of them fighting many hero’s at once.

Skill, he didn't even need to use his other abilities he just wacked them with his bo-staff. One of the many weapons he is a master of

Errrr? Moon Knight has an excellent track record in martial arts. He isn't said to be one of the most skilled martial artist for nothing

Current Hierarchy [192]

Cosmic Tier: (Transcendent Martial Artists) [3]
Gamora, Karate Kid, Mantis

Uber Tier: (Unearthly Martial Artists) [10]
Adam Warlock, Captain Mar-Vell, Kirigi (DC), Mandarin, Moondragon, O-Sensei, Ogun, Stick, Temugin, Thanos

Top Tier: ("Greatest Martial Artists"😉 [18]
Batgirl (Cassandra Cain), Batman, Black Canary, Bronze Tiger, Captain America, Connor Hawke, Constantine Drakon, Daredevil, Elektra, Iron Fist, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi, Shen Kuei (The Cat), Snake-Eyes, Storm Shadow, Taskmaster, Wolverine

Second Tier: (Master Martial Artists) [58]
Agent X, Artemis, Azrael, Backlash, Black Panther, Black Widow, Bullseye, Cable, Champion of the Universe, Cheshire, Crossbones, Daken, David Cain, Deadpool, Deathstroke, Domino, Donatello, Echo, Erik Killmonger, Gorgon (Tomi Shishido), Green Arrow, Grifter, Hawkman, Jason Blood, Judomaster (Hadley Jagger), Karnak, Lady Deathstrike, Leonardo, Magnus, Merlyn (DC), Michaelangelo, Midnight Sun, Mr Sensitive, Natas, Nick Fury, Nightwing, Nomad, Orion, Ozymandias (DC), Prometheus, Puck, Ra's al Ghul, Raphael, Ravager, Red Hood, Red Skull, Silver Samurai, Steel Serpent, Stone, Talia al Ghul, Twelve Brothers in Silk, White Tiger (Angela del Toro), Wildcat (Ted Grant), Winter Soldier, Wonder Woman, Vandal Savage, X-23, Zealot

Third Tier: (Highly Skilled Martial Artists) [65]
Ares (Marvel), Arsenal, Bane, Beta Ray Bill, Black Bolt, Black Cat, Black Knight (Dane Whitman), Blade, Blue Beetle (Ted Kord), Colleen Wing, Damian Wayne, Doctor Mid-Nite, Doctor Strange, Donna Troy, Drax, Duke(GI Joe), Grendel (Hunter Rose), Hawkeye, Heavy Duty(GI Joe), Hercules, Hippolyta, Huntress, Katana, KGBeast, Kingpin, Lady Vic, Lobo, Loki, Matsu'o Tsurayaba, Midnighter, Mister America (Tex Thomson), Mister Terrific, Mockingbird, Moon Knight, Mystique, Namor, Night Thrasher, Nightcrawler, Omega Red, Onyx, Prodigy, Psylocke, Punisher, The Question, Revanche, Robin (Tim Drake), Sage, Sabretooth, Shadowcat, Shatterstar, Shrike IV (Boone), Speedy (Mia Dearden), Spider-Woman (Jessica Drew), Stacy X, Terry McGinnis, Thena, Thor, Typhoid Mary, US Agent, V, Viper (Madame Hydra), Wild Child, Wong, Yukio

Fourth Tier: (Trained Martial Artists) [38]
Aquaman, Batgirl (Barbara Gordon), Batwoman, Beast, Blink, Blue Devil, Boom Boom, Cannonball, Carol Danvers, Catwoman, Colossus, Cyclops, Danielle Moonstar, Deathbird, Falcon, Gambit, Hawkgirl, Invisible Woman, Iron Man, Jamie Madrox, Joker, Jubilee, Luke Cage, Mister Fantastic, Misty Knight, Nite Owl II, Rorschach, She-Hulk, Starfire, Storm, Strong Guy, Superman, Tarantula, Thing, Viper (Madame Hydra), Wonder Man, Zauriel

-----------------------------------

Proposed Changes (Votes For / Votes Against)
Duke to second: 1 [capt] / 1 [llag]
Heavy Duty to second: 1 [capt] / 1 [llag]
Jubilee to third 2 [Smurph, Cresh] / 2 [llag, Nataku]
Kingpin to second: 5 [V, jrod, srank, capt, Accel] / 6 [Me, Soljer, llag, Macoy, Smurph, Nataku]
Moon Knight to second: 2 [Alfheim, Mungi] / 2 [capt, endrict]

Changes Passed/Defeated:
Hercules to second: 4 [V, llag, Trickster, MM] / 6 [Me, Soljer, FM, Smurph, Capt, Accel]
Mantis down to uber: 4 [DD1, Srank, llag, Accel] / 6 [Nataku, bran, Smurph, dg, MM, Soljer]
Cable to third: 4 [V, jrod, llag, Trickster] / 6 [Nataku, Smurph, MM, Soljer, Capt, Accel]

N.B. There seems to be insufficient interest or knowledge of the GI Joe characters to warrant the proposed change remaining. Unless there's some movement on those votes, I think it's fair they remain the status quo.

-----------------------------

Additions:
Aquaman

-----------------------------

Notes:
- I think the list is sufficiently reduced now that new proposed changes can be put forward. If you made one before while the list was too long, then please restate it.

- The last tier has been dissolved. If you think a character that has been removed should be re-added or a character that has been retained be removed then suggestions are welcome.
For reference purposes the characters removed were the following:
Apocalypse, Grace Choi, Hulk, Monet St. Croix, Scarlet Witch, Spider-Man,

- N.B. The Top Tier are characters above ~90th percentile of the total hierarchy top tier and under.
There are currently 18 Top Tier slots divided as follows:
Marvel - 8
DC - 8
Independent/Other - 2

- If you feel a character should be moved up or down, please actually state such, so that I do not have to guess intentions.

------------------------------

Suggestion; either change 'Red Hood' to 'Jason Todd,' or at least put it in parenthesis.

These days he goes by his actual name, from what I've seen. He hasn't actually been the Red Hood in a while.

Midnighter deserves second tier.

Still undecided about Moon Knight.

I'll support MK to second, as while I think he's in between 2 and 3, I think he leans more onto the 2 side.

Originally posted by The Fake Macoy
I'll support MK to second, as while I think he's in between 2 and 3, I think he leans more onto the 2 side.

Pretty much, all though he beat or was beating people that top tier people were stuggling against. 😉

MK to second tier?If he gets there, he gets there. I wouldnt cry much about it. The question is, who does he replace? And who gets bumped to third?

In h2h, i dont see MK beating many of the people already in 2nd tier for the clear majority.

I propose Blade be moved to Second Tier.

Originally posted by jrodslam
MK to second tier?If he gets there, he gets there. I wouldnt cry much about it. The question is, who does he replace? And who gets bumped to third?

In h2h, i dont see MK beating many of the people already in 2nd tier for the clear majority.

crossbones?

Originally posted by jrodslam
MK to second tier?If he gets there, he gets there. I wouldnt cry much about it. The question is, who does he replace? And who gets bumped to third?

In h2h, i dont see MK beating many of the people already in 2nd tier for the clear majority.

He's already beat Nick Fury, and no way is Wildcat more skilled then Moon Knight. Hell Hawkgirl has beat Tigress multiple times with ease and Tigress defeated Wildcat pretty handly in JSA Classified #5-7. So why the hell is she even so low? 😬

MK also beat Taskmaster...put the fear of god in him 😖hifty:

Originally posted by King_Mungi
He's already beat Nick Fury, and no way is Wildcat more skilled then Moon Knight. Hell Hawkgirl has beat Tigress multiple times with ease and Tigress defeated Wildcat pretty handly in JSA Classified #5-7. So why the hell is she even so low? 😬

MK also beat Taskmaster...put the fear of god in him 😖hifty:

Well ABC logic should apply. It usually never does actually. A may lose to C, while B beats C, but A beats B. How many times did Fury and MK fight? I do agree about what you said about Wildcat, but hes in DC. Someone from Marvel would have to get bumped down.

As far as Taskmaster goes, skill isnt the issue with him. His fighting ability sucks a$$. Plus, it wasnt even really a fight betwen them. PLEASE dont think im trying to take anything away from MoonKnight. Thats not the case at all. He is good.

Originally posted by llagrok
crossbones?

Isn't Crossbones pretty good though, he can hang with Cap for a while?

Originally posted by Darth Martin
I propose Blade be moved to Second Tier.

I think Blade has proven himself to be at least a master at MA's.

Originally posted by jrodslam
Well ABC logic should apply. It usually never does actually. A may lose to C, while B beats C, but A beats B. How many times did Fury and MK fight? I do agree about what you said about Wildcat, but hes in DC. Someone from Marvel would have to get bumped down.

As far as Taskmaster goes, skill isnt the issue with him. His fighting ability sucks a$$. Plus, it wasnt even really a fight betwen them. PLEASE dont think im trying to take anything away from MoonKnight. Thats not the case at all. He is good.

With humans you generally can use ABC as they don't have power/abilities like say Spider-Man and Silver Surfer. So their fighting skills are what they use in each fight. They only fought once, and a Marvel character? If I had to pick definetly Nomad or maybe even Cable.

Hence why I put the shifty smile, and Taskmaster's fighting ability sucks ass? Errrrr...?

Originally posted by endrict
Isn't Crossbones pretty good though, he can hang with Cap for a while?

Yes he has, but so could Moon Knight especially since we have seen how Moon Knight dealt with foes Cap has struggled against such as Nick Fury or Flag Smasher

Originally posted by King_Mungi

Yes he has, but so could Moon Knight especially since we have seen how Moon Knight dealt with foes Cap has struggled against such as Nick Fury or Flag Smasher

Sorry, but MK is not hanging with Cap for very long.

Cap shouldn't have troubles with Nick...thats bad writing.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
With humans you generally can use ABC as they don't have power/abilities like say Spider-Man and Silver Surfer. So their fighting skills are what they use in each fight. They only fought once, and a Marvel character? If I had to pick definetly Nomad or maybe even Cable.

Hence why I put the shifty smile, and Taskmaster's fighting ability sucks ass? Errrrr...?

You cant use ABC logic with human either because some matchups are tougher for others. Thats what its all about. Matchups. ABC logic never applies. Yea, its the fighting skills they use, but sometimes thats not all that plays a factor. For example A may have fought B many times over the past so thus they know each others abilities and skills pretty well. B may still beat A, but its gonna be a touch fight. C may have never fought either, but may be more skilled and still struggle because of not being familiar with the opponent. Familiarity(sp?) plays a factor as well. Also, wasnt Cap Nomad? I do agree with Cable possibly being bumped down. I wouldnt argue against that.

And yes, Taskmasters fighting ability is horrible compared to his skill. I dont think theres many that can argue hes probably the most skilled. Its how he applies it in combat. Hes predictable and uses bad judgement.

Originally posted by King_Mungi
Yes he has, but so could Moon Knight especially since we have seen how Moon Knight dealt with foes Cap has struggled against such as Nick Fury or Flag Smasher

And thats why ABC logic doesnt apply.

Originally posted by endrict
Cap shouldn't have troubles with Nick...thats bad writing.

🤨Bad writing? Why is that?

Originally posted by jrodslam
🤨Bad writing? Why is that?

Granted I don't know a lot about Nick but Cap is a way better fighter and shouldn't have too much issues with him.

Originally posted by jrodslam
You cant use ABC logic with human either because some matchups are tougher for others. Thats what its all about. Matchups. ABC logic never applies. Yea, its the fighting skills they use, but sometimes thats not all that plays a factor. For example A may have fought B many times over the past so thus they know each others abilities and skills pretty well. B may still beat A, but its gonna be a touch fight. C may have never fought either, but may be more skilled and still struggle because of not being familiar with the opponent. Familiarity(sp?) plays a factor as well. Also, wasnt Cap Nomad? I do agree with Cable possibly being bumped down. I wouldnt argue against that.

The thing is at this level, basically these people are the top of the food chain, they know multiple forms of martial arts and should be experienced in all forms of martial arts. If a top tier stuggles against someone Moon Knight beat handly I don't think you can merely dismiss that 😬

He was, but there was also another Nomad who everyone believed was the original Bucky. Until the real Bucky killed him

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomad_%28comics%29

Originally posted by jrodslam
And yes, Taskmasters fighting ability is horrible compared to his skill. I dont think theres many that can argue hes probably the most skilled. Its how he applies it in combat. Hes predictable and uses bad judgement.

Errr...he has owned Iron Man twice with his skill and have you seen what he even did in the recent New Avengers Intiative issue?

Originally posted by jrodslam

And thats why ABC logic doesnt apply.

Shows MK's skill level

Originally posted by endrict
Granted I don't know a lot about Nick but Cap is a way better fighter and shouldn't have too much issues with him.

Cap has refered to him as his equal, and they have stalemated a few times