Cheshire has beaten Shiva iirc, granted Shiva was poisoned at the time.
Wildcat, White Tiger and Mr Sensitive should probably be moved down in all honesty.
I thought Ollie's skills had gone up quite a notch recently but I could be mistaken.
At the same time I'm not against moving Moon Knight up. But mine is just a single vote like any others if I do vote...
Update.
Current Hierarchy [194]
Cosmic Tier: (Transcendent Martial Artists) [3]
Gamora, Karate Kid, Mantis
Uber Tier: (Unearthly Martial Artists) [10]
Adam Warlock, Captain Mar-Vell, Kirigi (DC), Mandarin, Moondragon, O-Sensei, Ogun, Stick, Temugin, Thanos
Top Tier: ("Greatest Martial Artists"😉 [18]
Batgirl (Cassandra Cain), Batman, Black Canary, Bronze Tiger, Captain America, Connor Hawke, Constantine Drakon, Daredevil, Elektra, Iron Fist, Lady Shiva, Richard Dragon, Shang Chi, Shen Kuei (The Cat), Snake-Eyes, Storm Shadow, Taskmaster, Wolverine
Second Tier: (Master Martial Artists) [58]
Agent X, Artemis, Azrael, Backlash, Black Panther, Black Widow, Bullseye, Cable, Champion of the Universe, Cheshire, Crossbones, Daken, David Cain, Deadpool, Deathstroke, Domino, Donatello, Echo, Erik Killmonger, Gorgon (Tomi Shishido), Green Arrow, Grifter, Hawkman, Jason Blood, Judomaster (Hadley Jagger), Karnak, Lady Deathstrike, Leonardo, Magnus, Merlyn (DC), Michaelangelo, Midnight Sun, Mr Sensitive, Natas, Nick Fury, Nightwing, Nomad, Orion, Ozymandias (DC), Prometheus, Puck, Ra's al Ghul, Raphael, Ravager, Red Hood, Red Skull, Silver Samurai, Steel Serpent, Stone, Talia al Ghul, Twelve Brothers in Silk, White Tiger (Angela del Toro), Wildcat (Ted Grant), Winter Soldier, Wonder Woman, Vandal Savage, X-23, Zealot
Third Tier: (Highly Skilled Martial Artists) [67]
Alpha, Ares (Marvel), Arsenal, Bane, Beta Ray Bill, Black Bolt, Black Cat, Black Knight (Dane Whitman), Blade, Blue Beetle (Ted Kord), Colleen Wing, Damian Wayne, Doctor Mid-Nite, Doctor Strange, Donna Troy, Drax, Duke(GI Joe), Grendel (Hunter Rose), Hawkeye, Heavy Duty(GI Joe), Hercules, Hippolyta, Huntress, Katana, KGBeast, Kingpin, Lady Vic, Lobo, Loki, "Mad Dog" Cain, Matsu'o Tsurayaba, Midnighter, Mister America (Tex Thomson), Mister Terrific, Mockingbird, Moon Knight, Mystique, Namor, Night Thrasher, Nightcrawler, Omega Red, Onyx, Prodigy, Psylocke, Punisher, The Question, Revanche, Robin (Tim Drake), Sage, Sabretooth, Shadowcat, Shatterstar, Shrike IV (Boone), Speedy (Mia Dearden), Spider-Woman (Jessica Drew), Stacy X, Terry McGinnis, Thena, Thor, Typhoid Mary, US Agent, V, Viper (Madame Hydra), Wild Child, Wong, Yukio
Fourth Tier: (Trained Martial Artists) [38]
Aquaman, Batgirl (Barbara Gordon), Batwoman, Beast, Blink, Blue Devil, Boom Boom, Cannonball, Carol Danvers, Catwoman, Colossus, Cyclops, Danielle Moonstar, Deathbird, Falcon, Gambit, Hawkgirl, Invisible Woman, Iron Man, Jamie Madrox, Joker, Jubilee, Luke Cage, Mister Fantastic, Misty Knight, Nite Owl II, Rorschach, She-Hulk, Starfire, Storm, Strong Guy, Superman, Tarantula, Thing, Viper (Madame Hydra), Wonder Man, Zauriel
-----------------------------------
Proposed Changes (Votes For / Votes Against)
Jubilee to third 2 [Smurph, Cresh] / 2 [llag, Nataku]
Kingpin to second: 5 [V, jrod, srank, capt, Accel] / 6 [Me, Soljer, llag, Macoy, Smurph, Nataku]
Moon Knight to second: 4 [llagrok, Fake McCoy, Alfheim, Mungi] / 4 [Soljer, Smurph, capt, endrict]
Midnighter to second: 1 [Soljer] / 1 [endrict]
Blade to second: 2 [endrict, Darth Martin] / 2 [llagrok, capt]
-----------------------------
Additions:
I've added Alpha (Michael Sommers) and the "Mad Dog" to third tier for now. The latter actually managed to kill Batgirl, but imo it's more due to brutality than pure skill. As always their placement is subject to discussion and change.
-----------------------------
Notes:
- The last tier has been dissolved. If you think a character that has been removed should be re-added or a character that has been retained be removed then suggestions are welcome.
For reference purposes the characters removed were the following:
Apocalypse, Grace Choi, Hulk, Monet St. Croix, Scarlet Witch, Spider-Man,
- N.B. The Top Tier are characters above ~90th percentile of the total hierarchy top tier and under.
There are currently 18 Top Tier slots divided as follows:
Marvel - 8
DC - 8
Independent/Other - 2
- If you feel a character should be moved up or down, please actually state such, so that I do not have to guess intentions.
------------------------------
Jubilee to third 2 [Smurph, Cresh] / 3 [llag, Nataku, Bran]
Kingpin to second: 5 [V, jrod, srank, capt, Accel] / 7 [Me, Soljer, llag, Macoy, Smurph, Nataku, Bran]
Moon Knight to second: 4 [llagrok, Fake McCoy, Alfheim, Mungi] / 5 [Soljer, Smurph, capt, endrict, Bran]
Midnighter to second: 2 [Soljer, Bran] / 1 [endrict]
Blade to second: 3 [endrict, Darth Martin, Bran] / 2 [llagrok, capt]
srug
Originally posted by SmurphSmash!
I've seen the Nick Fury fight... meh. Low showing for Nick. He's done much, much better in the past. And no, you don't have to beat everyone, but it seems clear that quite a majority holds the obvious edge over Moon Knight.Domino's been stated multiple times to be Cable's superior in hand to hand, and has still done fine even when she's depowered, or when she's acxtually hindered to be worse than powerless.
Well that clears up everything. Sheer genuis. That a clear and concise reason why MK should stay at third tier, especially the bit where you said it was a low showing for Nick......you rock. 😮💨
Originally posted by xmarksthespot
You suck at sarcasm. Rather than make you look clever, it simply makes you look like a asshole. At least when others do it, it can make them look like a clever asshole.
What? Im just stating facts its a low showing for Nick because MK beat him, whats the problem? 😐
Anyway heres some reasons why he should be third tier
1. He beat a guy who IF was lucky to beat.
2. Beat US Agent and Wild child easily in a brawl and still maanged to humilate Wolverine.
3. Shang Chi admiited he was formidable opponet.
4. Did better againt Zaran than Shang Chi did and was unlucky to lose.
5. Has used skill to take on Spiderman on numerous ocassions.
6. Humiliated Black Cat (MK just keeps pawning these third tiers)
Originally posted by iceman24567
I'm for Blade to third and against Moonknight to second.
Yeah, for now im thinking MK stays at second but im thinking maybe he should stay at third due to the evidence.
Originally posted by Phantom Zone
Anyway heres some reasons why he should be third tier1. He beat a guy who IF was lucky to beat.
2. Beat US Agent and Wild child easily in a brawl and still maanged to humilate Wolverine.
3. Shang Chi admiited he was formidable opponet.
4. Did better againt Zaran than Shang Chi did and was unlucky to lose.
5. Has used skill to take on Spiderman on numerous ocassions.
6. Humiliated Black Cat (MK just keeps pawning these third tiers)
Originally posted by Phantom ZoneNick Fury has stalemated Captain America twice... feats like those lead me to believe that Moon Knight shouldn't be considered the undoubted superior to him in H2H.
Well that clears up everything. Sheer genuis. That a clear and concise reason why MK should stay at third tier, especially the bit where you said it was a low showing for Nick......you rock. 😮💨
And don't sarcastically call someone a genius, if you can't spell genius.
Originally posted by SmurphSmash!
Nick Fury has stalemated Captain America twice... feats like those lead me to believe that Moon Knight shouldn't be considered the undoubted superior to him in H2H.
and yet people want to move Nick Fury down to third tier..lulz
Also it was still a close fight Nick and Mk had, it wasn't a blow out by any means
Originally posted by SmurphSmash!
Nick Fury has stalemated Captain America twice... feats like those lead me to believe that Moon Knight shouldn't be considered the undoubted superior to him in H2H.
Nobody said he should. The point was that he should be raised to second tier. Further more what were the cirumstances in which Nick stalemated him, on one ocassion he had to amp himself to do it. 😬
Originally posted by SmurphSmash!
And don't sarcastically call someone a genius, if you can't spell genius.
Irrelevant you missed the point. I did not spell genius properly thats neither here nor there, the point is that you did not bother to read the scans. Mungi has put down a hundred billions reasons why MK should be put to second tier, you obvoulsy did not read any of it.
The point of this thread is to place characters into tiers not to analyse every single piece of spelling. Let get back on topic shall we. 🙂
Originally posted by Phantom ZoneNot if we're thinking of the same circumstances.
Nobody said he should. The point was that he should be raised to second tier. Further more what were the cirumstances in which Nick stalemated him, on one ocassion he had to amp himself to do it. 😬
One took place in an environment Nick would know better than Cap... but eh. Nick's reflected Cap's shield back at him and nearly hit him with it. Just a cool feat. But they were clearly supposed to be at the same/similar skill levels, which is not a place where I'd put Moon Knight.
Originally posted by Phantom ZoneNor is the point of this thread to talk so "obvously" out of your ass in a poor attempt at sarcasm and then make more backwards attempts to make it look not only like the initial comment was ill-conceived, but that you're at all capable of forming a single, coherent, intelligent thought.
Irrelevant you missed the point. I did not spell genius properly thats neither here nor there, the point is that you did not bother to read the scans. Mungi has put down a hundred billions reasons why MK should be put to second tier, you obvoulsy did not read any of it.The point of this thread is to place characters into tiers not to analyse every single piece of spelling. Let get back on topic shall we. 🙂
But, here we are.
Originally posted by King_MungiBlack Cat is nothing special.
*scratches his head* He has more then the Nick Fury fight that justifies him having a bump 😬So far the oppositions arguement is move just everyone else down who MK showed he was superior too 😬
Some of those fights aren't totally H2H.
And I haven't argued that at all. Just to point that out.
Originally posted by SmurphSmash!
Black Cat is nothing special.Some of those fights aren't totally H2H.
And I haven't argued that at all. Just to point that out.
and yet she is still third tier, and yet she used her skill to beat Sabretooth and Spider-Man 😬
*smacks forehead* Half of the references people make in this thread are not just purely hand to hand or they post no evidence and merely just use word of mouth for a character. While as stated, Moon Knight has mastered every weapon created, experienced in all martial art forms, knows pressure points even to the point of using them on an invulnerable person. He has gone against the elite and hanged with them, and beat some 😬
Originally posted by King_Mungi
and yet she is still third tier, and yet she used her skill to beat Sabretooth and Spider-Man 😬
Which, again, is a low showing for Sabes and Spider-Man. Captain America has plenty more skill, but I wouldn't give him odds against either of them.
Originally posted by King_Mungi*smacks forehead* I try to stick to pure H2H feats. Go figure.
*smacks forehead* Half of the references people make in this thread are not just purely hand to hand or they post no evidence and merely just word of mouth for a character. While as stated, Moon Knight has mastered every weapon created, experienced in all martial art forms, knows pressure points even to the point of using them on an invulnerable person. He has gone against the elite and hanged with them, and beat some 😬
Meh... all that mastering is nice and good, but we don't have much evidence beyond the likes of Nick and Black Cat...
All of the ones named have feats that go far beyond what was shown in the panels with Moon Knigt. Was it completely PIS? Of course not... but I'm not going to use one single fight to decide that Moon Knight >/= Nick, and should be in the same tier.
Originally posted by SmurphSmash!
Which, again, is a low showing for Sabes and Spider-Man. Captain America has plenty more skill, but I wouldn't give him odds against either of them.
Errr...she's a very skilled martial artist, and those are examples to show Black Cat is to counter your point about her being "nothing special"
Originally posted by SmurphSmash!
*smacks forehead* I try to stick to pure H2H feats. Go figure.Meh... all that mastering is nice and good, but we don't have much evidence beyond the likes of Nick and Black Cat...
All of the ones named have feats that go far beyond what was shown in the panels with Moon Knigt. Was it completely PIS? Of course not... but I'm not going to use one single fight to decide that Moon Knight >/= Nick, and should be in the same tier.
I'll remember that
Errrr...not much? Look at the Moon Knight respect thread, I could drop the whole thread here, but that doesn't mean people will actually read the scans [as shown already]. He has done many things to justify a position change.
Errr...there are a lot of people in the tiers, who don't have many feats, but were moved around no problem. Also when has Hercules, Wildcat, Beta Ray Bill, Thor etc. showed any level of martial arts training? Neither am I, hence why I said Moon Knight has done OTHER things other then the Nick Fury to support a bump.
Originally posted by SmurphSmash!
Not if we're thinking of the same circumstances.One took place in an environment Nick would know better than Cap... but eh. Nick's reflected Cap's shield back at him and nearly hit him with it. Just a cool feat. But they were clearly supposed to be at the same/similar skill levels, which is not a place where I'd put Moon Knight.
I hope one of those example isnt the assualt course that Nick and Cap went through.....anyway it doesnt matter because MK has other showings.
Originally posted by SmurphSmash!
Nor is the point of this thread to talk so "obvously" out of your ass in a poor attempt at sarcasm and then make more backwards attempts to make it look not only like the initial comment was ill-conceived, but that you're at all capable of forming a single, coherent, intelligent thought.But, here we are.
Your comment was ill-conceived because it shows MK pawning third tiers and a top tier with ease, which implies that he should be second tier.
Furthermore you're stilll arguing that its a low showing for Nick when other examples have been given. Clearly you dont read the evidence provided. Read the evidence and I wont make sarcastic comments simple.