Originally posted by ExodusCloak
I think you need to differenciate between Original Power Leech Rogue, Ms. Marvel Rogue, Recall Rogue and Current Rogue because each in this case would be a different power level. Because you seem to be meshing her feats when each version of her character is at a different power level.etc...
I wanted to move Current Rogue higher on the tier list.
Anyway, the reason I meshed all those feats together is because their all of the same character using the same power to beat her opponent. Those feats should still count as evidence even if she were at different power levels. I mean, if she used her absorption power to absorb Thor when she had Ms. Marvel's powers would it have any different effect than she when she only had her original power? The only feats of absorption which shouldn't be taken into account would be of Recall Rogue...because she never even used her absorbing power at that time. It's not like her absorption power has essentially changed. With the death touch it's only speeded-up the process to which she can permanently absorb someone, at least from what I understand. It hasn't changed so she can absorb robots, it's still basically the same power.
Moving on to the her usuage of Sunfire's powers: even if she hasn't displayed the same amount of prowess as Shiro, she still absorbed HIS powerset. And lack of experience with a certain power never really effected her power-output. Just look at Rogue after she absorbed Carol. Was she any weaker than Carol after she absorbed her? IMO, no. So why should it be different now? Basically, whatever Shiro was capable of doing before she absorbed him so should she. Which means we should be able to use his feats to come to a conclusion of how powerful she is now.
Originally posted by JuliaChangRulz
I wanted to move Current Rogue higher on the tier list.Anyway, the reason I meshed all those feats together is because their all of the same character using the same power to beat her opponent. Those feats should still count as evidence even if she were at different power levels. I mean, if she used her absorption power to absorb Thor when she had Ms. Marvel's powers would it have any different effect than she when she only had her original power? The only feats of absorption which shouldn't be taken into account would be of Recall Rogue...because she never even used her absorbing power at that time. It's not like her absorption power has essentially changed. With the death touch it's only speeded-up the process to which she can permanently absorb someone, at least from what I understand. It hasn't changed so she can absorb robots, it's still basically the same power.
Moving on to the her usuage of Sunfire's powers: even if she hasn't displayed the same amount of prowess as Shiro, she still absorbed HIS powerset. And lack of experience with a certain power never really effected her power-output. Just look at Rogue after she absorbed Carol. Was she any weaker than Carol after she absorbed her? IMO, no. So why should it be different now? Basically, whatever Shiro was capable of doing before she absorbed him so should she. Which means we should be able to use his feats to come to a conclusion of how powerful she is now.
That's not how the list works though. And nope those feats wouldn't count as evidence because she had a different powerset. Take the Warpath example. He used to be Class 75 and could fly...but now he's Class 25 and can't therefore he's stuck at Low Meta.
Her Absorption power doesn't make her high meta. 😬 She has to touch the person which augement her powers...that's like putting Synch on a really high tier because he could potentially copy HoM Wanda's powers.
Ms. Marvel has energy projection, energy absorption + Strength and Durabilty and an ugraded healing factor..Ms. Marvel Rogue has Strength, Durability and Power Stealing. Ms. Marvel has more going for her now then Ms. Marvel Rogue ever did. 😬
Again the list doesn't work that way...it's not just about power-output it's also about experience. Rogue doesn't have the feats with Shiro's powers to bump her up the list. Its why people like Beta Ray Bill are not on the same level as Thor.
And think about it...she's in the same tier as Hellion, Crystal and Ms. Marvel and IMO they are all beyond Current Rogue.
BTW Famine Shiro has been upgraded as well.(This is after Rogue stole his powers)
Originally posted by Harry Fingerman
Apoc down one level.Him being on the same level as Doom is ridiculous.
Either Doom goes up, or Apoc goes down... preferably, Apoc goes down.
Well if we bump him down a level he would be on Mr. Sinister level 😖hifty:...who does seem to have a better record against the X-Men.
As for the Rogue thing....I'm not completely against her being bumped...but if she is then the Mid Meta tier will need to be fixed in order to accommodate characters like Crystal, Hellion, Moonstone and Ms. Marvel. Who are superior to her. Thing is with the High Meta tier you have one-dimensional bricks like Colossus, Thing and She-Hulk who could have problems with quite a few of the characters in tiers below them...though I guess I can sort of understand the Class 100 thunderclap reasoning behind them. The fact that they're Class Hundred and super durable I guess would make them High Meta.
Originally posted by Hyperion 07
Sinister up one.
Yeah..... 🙄 The guy who is shit scared of Apoc, and poisoned him twice to avoid a direct fight with him, who was given his powers in the first place by Apocalypse, who made Nate Grey to stop Apoc because he didn't think he could do it himself, is on Apoc's level or should be above him. durno
Sub-Skyfather (Transcendent)
Amazo, Appolyon, The Asgardian Destroyer, Black Racer, Blackheart, Blaze, Circe, Count Abyss, Death Urge, Despero, The Doctor, Dr. Fate, Dr. Manhattan, Dr. Strange (classic), Eclipso, Elders of the Universe (minus Ego), Fernus, The General (Shaggy Man), Gog, Gray Man, High Evolutionary, Ion (current), Jenny Quantum, The Keeper, King Thor, Magus (original), Mangog, Mongul I (Pre Crisis), Nightmare, Onimar Synn, Onslaught, Queen of Fables, Resurrection Man 1 Million, Sentinel (Alan Scott), Silver Age Kryptonians/Daxamites, Solomon Grundy (Peak), Solusandra, Stayne, Strange Visitor, Sun Eater, Superboy Prime, Superman 1 Million, Takion, Talisman, Thanos, Tyrant (powered down), Validus
Herald
High
Adam Warlock, Baron Zemo (w/ Moonstones), Cyborg Superman, The Eradicator (Fortress Mode), Genis-Vell, Green Lantern (Hal, Kyle, Alan), Infinity-Man, Majestic, Moonstone (w/ both stones), Qztr, The Sentry, The Silver Surfer, Sinestro, Spartan 3.0, Stardust, Superman (including B/R and AS), Thor, The Void
Middle
Alexander Nero, Beta Ray Bill, Binary, Black Adam, Black Bolt, Cable (Full Power), Captain Atom, Cpt. Comet, Captain Marvel (DC), Count Nefaria, Damien Hellstrom, Doomsday, Evinlea, The Fallen One, Firelord, Firestorm, The Flash III (Wally West), The Flash IV (Bart Allen), General Zod, Gladiator, Green Lantern (Guy, John, Katma, Kilowog), Hyperion, Ikaris, Imperiex Probes, Kid Omega, Lobo, Loki, Magus (Post-IG), Martian Manhunter, Maxima, Mon-El, Morg, Nate Grey, Orion, Quasar, Rachel Summers (Phoenix II), Red Shift, Sersi, Shaman, Skreet, Supergirl, Supreme, Swamp Thing, Terrax the Tamer, Void, Waverider, Wildfire, Witchfire (Demon Form), Wonder Woman
Low
Absorbing Man, Air Walker, Animal Man, Apocalypse, Apollo, Argent, The Atom, Aztek, Bizarro Superman, Breach, Cassandra Nova, Cir-El, Damage, Darkness, Darwin, Death's Head 3.0, Death Metal, Dr. Doom, Dr. Invincible, Dr. Light, Dr. Polaris, Drax The Destroyer, Engineer, Etrigan, Exodus, Fin Fang Foom, The Flash II (Barry Allen), Gammid, Gamora (w/Godslayer), Gilgamesh, Gorilla Grodd, Graviton, Green Lantern (Soranik Natu), Guardian I (James Hudson), He-Man, Hector Hammond, Hulk, Iceman, Isis, Jade, Jack Hawksmoor (in city), Jack of Hearts, Jericho, Juggernaut (Classic), Kalibak, Karate Kid, Lightray, Living Monolith, Lunatik, Madison Jeffries (BOX IV), Magneto, Major Force, Makkari, Man-Beast, Manchester Black, Marrina (Leviathan), Mar-Vell, Matrix Supergirl, Meggan, Mongul, Monica Rambeau (Pulsar), Mr. M, Nova (Frankie Raye), Nova Richard Rider (current), Plastic Man, Prime, Professor X, Raven, The Ray, Red Tornado, Ronan the Accuser, Saturn Girl, Selene (External), Shadow King, Snowbird, Starhawk, Super Skrull, Superboy, Tempest, Ultra Boy, Ultra-Humanite, Ultron, Union, Vulcan, Wendigo, Winter, Witchfire (Normal), Zauriel
Metahuman (Mid-tier "Iron Man" level)
High
Abomination, Adam Strange, Aquaman, Ares (Marvel), Atlas, Aurora, Batman 1 Million, Battalion (Jackson King), Blastaar, Blob, BOX I (Roger Bochs), Captain Britain, Captain Marvel Jr, Colossus, Death's Head II, Donna Troy, Emma Frost, Ghost Rider II, Grim Reaper, Guardian II (Heather Hudson), Havok, Hellstrike, Hercules (Mortal), Holocaust, The Human Torch, Invisible Woman, Iron-Man, Jean Grey (sans Phoenix), Jenny Sparks, Juggernaut (Depowered), Kang, Living Laser, Manbot, Mandarin, Mary Marvel, Maul, Mercer Drake, Metallo, Mimic (Exiles), Miss Martian, Mr. Fantastic, Mr. Sinister, Namor the Sub-Mariner, Nico Minoru, Nightshade, Nimrod, Northstar, Ocean Master, Osiris, Pitt, Polaris, Power Girl, Psylocke, Radioactive Man, Sand, Sasquatch, Shassa, She-Hulk, Starfire, Storm, Supernova, Temugin, The Thing, Thunderstrike, The Tick, Ulik, Ultimo, Vision, War Machine, Windshear, Wonder Man, Zzaxx
Middle
Aegis, Atom Smasher, Attuma, Balder, Beast Boy, Bishop, Blink, Blue Beetle (Jamie Reyes), Blue Devil, Bombshell, Booster Gold, Carnage, Cloak, Corrin, Crystal, Cyborg, Cyclops, Death's Head, Death Wreck, Dust, Electro, Elijah Snow, Enchantress, Farenheit, Flint, Fuji, Ghost Rider (Johnny Blaze), Ghost Rider(Dan Ketch), Grace Choi, Hawkgirl, Hawkman, Hellion, The Flash I (Jay Garrick), Karolina Dean, Kymaera/Namorita, Lightning Lad, Matua, M.O.D.O.K., Molly Hayes, Moonstone, Morlun, Ms. Marvel, Nico Minoru, Ogun, Quicksilver (classic), Ragman, Rogue, rom, Shadowcat, Shift, Steel, Terra, Thunder, Tiger Shark, Toxin, Vance Astro, Vengeance, Victor Mancha, Wonder Girl
Low
3-D Man, Ambrose Chase, Angel, Arachne, Arana, Azrael, Beast, Black Canary, Black Tarantula, Blade, Blue Beetle (Dan Garrett), Bruenor Battlehammer, Century, Charcoal, Charlie 27, Constrictor, Creeper, Cyber, Dagger, Deathlok, Deathstroke the Terminator, Doc Ock, Drizzt Do'Urden, Elixer, Falcon, Firehawk, Gambit, Green Goblin, Hobgoblin, Iron Fist, Jakita Wagner, Karnak, Kid Devil, Killer Croc, Klaw, Lady Deathstrike, Longshot, Luke Cage, Machine Man, Man-Bat, Marrina (Normal), Mercury, Midnighter, Mister Hyde, Multiple Man, Mysterio, Mystique, Nightcrawler, Nova Richard Rider (classic), Nuke, Omega Red, Orka Humbug, Prometheus, Protocide, Puck, Puma, Rage, Sabretooth, Shang Chi, Silver Samurai, Speedball, Speedfreek, Spider-Man, Spider-Man 2099, Spider-Woman, Swift, Thunder Cats, Tombstone, Triathalon, Vance Astro, Vanguard, Venom, Vermin, Victor Mancha, Vulture, Warlock (Technarchy/Phalanx), Warpath, Wildchild, Wizard, Wolverine, Wulfgar
Street Level
High
Bane, Batgirl, Batman, Black Cat, Black Panther, Blacklash, Bronze Tiger, Bullseye, Captain America, The Cat, Constantine Drakon, Daredevil, Elektra, Green Arrow, Hawkeye, Hush, Kingpin, Lady Shiva, Ravager, Red Skull, Richard Dragon, Taskmaster, Union Jack, X-23, Nightwing, Red Hood
Middle
Arsenal/Red Arrow, Baron Zemo, Blue Beetle (Ted Kord), Crossbones, Deadshot, Echo, Grifter, Joker, Mach IV, Misty Knight, Moon Knight, Nick Fury, Nomad, Peacemaker, Punisher, Ra's Al Ghul, Rose Tattoo, Turok, Wildcat, Robin
Low
Alfred, Batroc, Black Widow, Catwoman, Christine Trelane, Colleen Wing, Night Thrasher, Obregon Kaine, Penguin, The Question, Riddler, Talia, White Tiger
Bumping the list...
Also, I vote Crystal up to high meta.
I agree with that. I think Crystal should be High-Meta. Just take a peek of whatever few feats she has in her respect thread and you'll see why.
@ ExodusCloak:
But it's the absorption power that have won her those victories. That hasn't changed between her different power-sets. Even without the additional powers she still probably could of won those battles. Yeah, there were some battles that she wouldn't have won because she needed her super-strength, or flight, or whatever. But most of her battles hinge on the fact that she has her power absorption. Without it she's just a regualar person or a flying brick. That what makes her different from Warpath. And the absorption itself never really changed. While Warpath's class level did.
Her Absorption power doesn't make her high meta. She has to touch the person which augement her powers...that's like putting Synch on a really high tier because he could potentially copy HoM Wanda's powers.
So her absorption power is worth absoutely nothing? I mean, I know what you're saying and you do have a point. But...people wouldn't consider her powerful in the first place if she didn't HAVE that power. In some battles, it's what wins it for her. You've got to count it somehow.
Ms. Marvel has energy projection, energy absorption + Strength and Durabilty and an ugraded healing factor..Ms. Marvel Rogue has Strength, Durability and Power Stealing. Ms. Marvel has more going for her now then Ms. Marvel Rogue ever did.
Yes, Ms. Marvel has those powers NOW...but she got those powers AFTER she was absorbed. They're not related. What I was comparing Ms. Marvel Rogue to was Ms. Marvel BEFORE she gained her energy powers. When she only had super strength, durability, and flight. Those are the powers Rogue absorbed. Not the one's you mentioned above.
Again the list doesn't work that way...it's not just about power-output it's also about experience. Rogue doesn't have the feats with Shiro's powers to bump her up the list. Its why people like Beta Ray Bill are not on the same level as Thor.
Experience? Rogue absorbs memories as well as experience. I remember her absorbing a ninja and gaining their martial arts skills and knowledge. She's been shown to able to use the skills and experience of her victims multiple times. Rogue should be able to do whatever Sunfire could do pre-absorption. Just because the writers don't protray it as such currently doesn't mean she can't.
And think about it...she's in the same tier as Hellion, Crystal and Ms. Marvel and IMO they are all beyond Current Rogue.
Do Hellion, Crytal and Ms. Marvel have the ability to defeat the likes of Thor, Blob, Juggernaut, Mr. Fantastic etc...? Do they have even have the slightest chance to best about a dozen or so of the characters in the higher tiers? Current Rogue can do that because of her absorption power. That's what I believe puts her in a higher rank.
BTW Famine Shiro has been upgraded as well.(This is after Rogue stole his powers)
Yes, which is why Famine Shiro's feats wouldn't count for Current Rogue.