As for current tier placement, there's a proposal of some shiftings:
Either bring Vulture down to Mach IV level (midstreet) or replace their standings (Vulture down to midstreet, ,Mach IV up to low meta). Both have no natural superpowers, and in terms of tech Mach IV beats Vulture every day. In fact, Vulture has little business to do in meta tier at all.
So my proposal- Vulture down to mid street, he's "Shocker with wings" and nobody will ever see Shocker in meta tier.
Klaw up to mid meta (at least, though he's not making proper high meta IMO)
Ms. Marvel up to high meta
Thunder down to low meta, she's in Spiderman league and mid meta=too much respect for her.
Originally posted by DigiMark007high-herald suits dr. m's feats better. trans is just a bit excessive, imo.
An inability to die and global-level matter manip, as well as awareness on a beyond-cosmic scale, makes him at least high herald. Does anyone really think he wouldn't just yawn Supes away ftw?
Originally posted by Charlotte DeBel
As for current tier placement, there's a proposal of some shiftings:Either bring Vulture down to Mach IV level (midstreet) or replace their standings (Vulture down to midstreet, ,Mach IV up to low meta). Both have no natural superpowers, and in terms of tech Mach IV beats Vulture every day. In fact, Vulture has little business to do in meta tier at all.
So my proposal- Vulture down to mid street, he's "Shocker with wings" and nobody will ever see Shocker in meta tier.Klaw up to mid meta (at least, though he's not making proper high meta IMO)
Ms. Marvel up to high metaThunder down to low meta, she's in Spiderman league and mid meta=too much respect for her.
Originally posted by DigiMark007When did he show global level matter Manip?
An inability to die and global-level matter manip, as well as awareness on a beyond-cosmic scale, makes him at least high herald. Does anyone really think he wouldn't just yawn Supes away ftw?
Honestly Superman probably wouldn't be the best suited to fight DM. Just because it appeared as if physical attacks wouldn't stop him.
But I have no doubt that Surfer, Thor, the Green Lanterns couldn't bust him up something fierce.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
Being able to quickly reconstitute yourself from completely displaced atoms, and existing at all times at once, is beyond Sersi/Firestorm.
True, he's hard to kill but Eternals can do the same thing, Lobo is unkillable, Darwin has come back from death at least once, I'm sure at least one herald has managed it. Being hard to kill isn't enough to place someone above Surfer.
As for his cosmic awareness, Manhattan cannot or will not act on any of that information (a point he makes himself) and anyone with comparable powers can jam the power completely with tachyons.
He also has no useful combat feats whatsoever. He's never dealt with any form of superpowers in his life so he would have to come up with solutions of the fly. Frankly despite what he's likely capable of Manhattan almost certainly doesn't have the skill and certainly doesn't have the feats.
...you're forgetting the matter manip. That alone is enough to put him at Mid-to-High herald. Add in the un-killability and you're basically looking at an infinitely-harder-to-kill Doctor, but with less actual feats.
Others are welcome to voice their opinions, btw. This is only Sym's and my take on it.
Originally posted by DigiMark007
...you're forgetting the matter manip. That alone is enough to put him at Mid-to-High herald. Add in the un-killability and you're basically looking at an infinitely-harder-to-kill Doctor, but with less actual feats.Others are welcome to voice their opinions, btw. This is only Sym's and my take on it.
We can't put everyone with matter-manip at Trans. MrM isn't there because he has few combat feats against people with superpowers (actually he has far more than Manhattan does). We also don't know if he's unkillable it's only been tried once and Veidt made the mistake of killing him in the exact way that he died the first time. It was "the first trick I ever learned" according to Manhattan.
He's never felt a class 100 punch. He's never fought at even the speed of sound. He's never had an intelligent being try to matter-manip him. He's never dealt with telepathy. He's never been hit with a cosmic blast.
Now there are good arguments that his powerset and sheer intelligence would let him deal with those threats but only based on what people that know about superpowers would do. In Manhattan's world comics are about pirates not supers so he doesn't even have a second hand point of reference.
We don't expect rookie GLs to be at the level Hal or Kyle simply because their powers are the same. I don't think we should assume that Manhattan is at The Doctor's level for the same reason.
Dr. Manhattan was also capable of creating duplicates, and creating life.
I know we didn't see the dupes be as equally powered, fair enough, but it's still out there.
As for creating life, yes, it was hypothetical, but it was a hypothetical by him, who with his awareness would know the exact limits of his abilities.
I feel it's fruitless to try and nitpick at his feats though... Watchmen, as we know, wasn't a book based on superpowers, and doesn't get used often in the vs. forum.
So... meh.
Originally posted by Boy Blue
Dr. Manhattan was also capable of creating duplicates, and creating life.I know we didn't see the dupes be as equally powered, fair enough, but it's still out there.
As for creating life, yes, it was hypothetical, but it was a hypothetical by him, who with his awareness would know the exact limits of his abilities.
I feel it's fruitless to try and nitpick at his feats though... Watchmen, as we know, wasn't a book based on superpowers, and doesn't get used often in the vs. forum.
So... meh.
Surfer and Kyle+Kilowog have created life as well, if I'm not mistaken.
Originally posted by llagrok
Surfer and Kyle+Kilowog have created life as well, if I'm not mistaken.
So we have duplicates, high level matter manip., life creation, immune to molecular dispersion, etc. And there's those offensive firepower scans of him in Vietnam or wherever, so he can use his powers for destruction. Are we still trying to say he's mid herald?
Originally posted by DigiMark007
So we have duplicates, high level matter manip., life creation, immune to molecular dispersion, etc. And there's those offensive firepower scans of him in Vietnam or wherever, so he can use his powers for destruction. Are we still trying to say he's mid herald?
Frankly I don't see the basis for saying he has "high level" matter-manip. He moved around the pieces in a few machines, turned sand into glass and apparently synthesized the materials for batteries. Offensive firepower against the Vietcong is a pretty meaningless feat in my opinion.
The best example I can think of it NateGrey who more powers and at higher levels than Manhattan and has more feats but remains at mid-herald. Of course it's possible that Grey may be placed too low.
The Mars-castle was no small feat. And we have the impromptu teleportation of Rorschach as well, and the Comedian's admission that he could've done any number of matter manip. feats when he shot that one girl. And there's the whole life creation thing, which is about as complex as you'll get concerning matter manip. Do we really need a couple more feats when it's clear he has robust matter manip powers?