I'm not clear on how we're judging what tier someone is. Is it what they've done overall throughout their career? Or most current?
Because overall throughout their career I'd vote for Genis staying at high herald. If its most recent, then I vote for him moving to trans.
If we're voting on Zemo (KG...?), then Zemo for trans.
And I agree with putting Zatanna at mid herald.
Originally posted by Konton
Wonder Girl has been upgraded. Should be high metahuman now. She's reached 100 class (has been catching planes). She can wish people away w/ her new lasso.Donna Troy has also exceeded limitations. Draco said she was nearing Diana's power levels.
Starfire was shown lifting aircraft carriers lately. This strength, her nova blast, and her lightspeed flight are all reasons for her to be bumped to low herald.
Current Saturn Girl needs to go down a few slots. She's been reduced to a crap telepath. Low metahuman at best. She can't even probe shielded minds at this point.
I'd just like to bring this up once more in an effort to make some more changes. Saturn Girl being demoted shouldn't even have to be voted on IMO. She hasn't been remotely powerful since the Silver Age days.
Originally posted by Enyalus
Because overall throughout their career I'd vote for Genis staying at high herald. If its most recent, then I vote for him moving to trans.
Originally posted by Enyalus
I'm not clear on how we're judging what tier someone is. Is it what they've done overall throughout their career? Or most current?
Originally posted by Al the Killer
It's supposed to be the former but at this point, the list is a cluster****. It seems like a few people would rather vote based on a character's high feats. If you're going to do that, I suggest tearing the list down and starting over with everyone in Trans.
I try to be very deliberate in making changes, to avoid overly quick reactions to feats or characters. Most proposed changes end up getting defeated because even if I don't have an opinion on the matter, I require there to be sufficient evidence for a change and a clear consensus on a switch.
Also, Kandy, can we get a list of Genis versions, since I don't think everyone's clear what is being discussed.
First version is called Legacy. He has his blasting powers and stuff, but no cosmic awareness and no versatility. This is the version that fought SS and Tyrant.
After that was his plain old Cap. Marvel form. He had cosmic awareness and a bit more versatility but was still mainly just a blaster. Significantly above Legacy, he fought alongside SS on a few occasions. He has some other cool feats, but I haven't really read comics from this era. People might remember him as being the guy Thanos sought for help against Walker.
After that he went insane, which was because his cosmic awareness was supercharged. He could pretty much do anything he wanted, was very versatile, did Time manip/Matter manip plenty of times. Fought King Thor. Helped restart the universe. Lots of good feats that I think are clearly trans.
Then he wasn't insane but still had access to all that power. He looked like his second version but with a white outfit instead of red. He could do anything insane genis could but chose not to because of the threat of insanity. He had some really awesome time manipulation feats here and good time travel. His power was shown to be able to kill the combined armadas of Kree, Skrull, and Shiar empires with a mere thought, if he had enough experience. This is another feat that makes me think that on a pure power basis he is clearly trans. Took on Ely who could destroy five solar systems at once.
Then there was Photon. I don't really count him because he was using an outside power source here instead of his own powers. This is the thunderbolts version. Zemo killed him. Again I don't think this is representative of Genis because none of his feats here were using his own power.
Cosmic Awareness
Genis possesses something known as Cosmic Awareness. What is it, exactly?
Essentially, as explained in the scans, Cosmic Awareness allows Genis to see all of creation (infinite multiverses/omniverse), and all the infinite possibilities in them, past present and future. Not only that, but it gives him a sort of battle precognition (prediction of his enemy's next move.)
Genis' Power
So we know that Genis taps infinite power through his Nega Bands. However, that's just the tip of the iceberg. Genis' evil future clone from an alternate dimension, named Fredd, explains it to him:
And after he's had a bit of training, he confirms that he does have infinite power on his own several times:
Why is this the case? Well, in addition to Genis having the ability to tap infinite energy from the Nega Bands, his very soul is a part of the Heart of the Universe (the artifact which made Thanos into the Supreme Being of the Marvel Universe):
Energy Manipulation
Genis controls all forms of energy. Here Fredd (same powers as Genis, alternate evil clone from the future), explains that he can manipulate all manner of waves:
What's Genis have to say regarding his energy manipulation talents?
In addition to that, he can also control chronal energy (which should go without saying). He ends up opening temporal rifts stimulated by his cosmically charged photonic particles and pulls various versions of people to confront themselves (he does this to everyone on the planet):
....Okay, end of teaser. If its overall, I'll go for Genis being trans. I have solid arguments for Photon, too, if anyone cares.
Originally posted by Enyalus
his very soul is a part of the Heart of the Universe (the artifact which made Thanos into the Supreme Being of the Marvel Universe):
Originally posted by King Kandy
I'd just like to say I think it's pretty obvious he's using that phrase to refer to the literal heart of the 616 universe
Originally posted by King Kandy
not the artifact (which, in addition to not having been invented yet,
Originally posted by King Kandy
is actually called the heart of the infinite).
Stop.
Think.
THOTU hadn't even appeared in print yet. Genis went on and on about how it was his connection to the universe that kept Magus from absorbing him. You are extrapolating one term he used with an unrelated concept because they happen to have used the same name.
Additionally, he says that in draining him, Magus was draining "The living Heart of the Universe". Now, I think that line should make it clear that Genis was actually referring to HIMSELF (or his cosmic awareness more specifically) as the heart of the universe. THOTU as seen in the end isn't living, in fact Thanos says that it was merely nonliving, nonthinking energy.
I'm not trying to take away from Genis's feat in the slightest, in fact it is incredible, since it says he could potentially wield the power of the entire universe. But using that and tying it into an artifact that made it's premier a half year later is silly. That would be like saying every time someone referred to the universe beginning in a cosmic egg, they were actually referring to the similarly named device the goddess used years later.
Originally posted by King Kandy
Stop.Think.
THOTU hadn't even appeared in print yet. Genis went on and on about how it was his connection to the universe that kept Magus from absorbing him. You are extrapolating one term he used with an unrelated concept because they happen to have used the same name.
Jim Starlin. Dec. 1990. 😖hifty:
Again, if your interpretation is correct and his power comes from being keyed into the heart of the 616 reality, why did he retain his power in the next volume of CM when he destroyed 616 and the entire Marvel Universe?
I don't think he was referring to 616, but the artifact, which was omniversal. Just as Genis' cosmic awareness was. But feel free to disagree with me. I wrote all that up months ago and never used it, so my interpretation could have been off then. I don't want to spam this thread up and get Digi mad at me lol.
My "616" thing was completely wrong. But I don't see how you could think he was referring to an artifact that hadn't appeared in marvel at that point. That's like saying Thanos was tapping into 616 in that scan, when clearly he's actually talking about the IG. Of course, it would make no sense to say it was the heart because it wasn't around yet.
BTW, Genis may not have had cosmic awareness when he destroyed 616. He said he "enjoyed the quiet", in contrast to how he sometimes talks about how he always hears millions of voices talking.
Originally posted by King Kandy
My "616" thing was completely wrong. But I don't see how you could think he was referring to an artifact that hadn't appeared in marvel at that point. That's like saying Thanos was tapping into 616 in that scan, when clearly he's actually talking about the IG. Of course, it would make no sense to say it was the heart because it wasn't around yet.
Originally posted by King Kandy
BTW, Genis may not have had cosmic awareness when he destroyed 616. He said he "enjoyed the quiet", in contrast to how he sometimes talks about how he always hears millions of voices talking.
