The distinction between PIS and CIS is never clear because character induced stupidity can exist for 90% of a career in order to further the plot, thus being both PIS and CIS.
ex: Surfer doesn't insta-win every fight against any lesser life form. Despite being incredibly intelligent otherwise, he's stupid in this regard because it furthers the plot beyond the few panels that it would consist of otherwise.
Originally posted by darthgoober
Actually if you have any clear insight as to the difference I'd love to hear it because the rules aren't very clear on it and it seems like no one can agree on it. It comes up from time to time here in the tiers thread and it does seem like it should be taken into consideration in how we rank them, so how do you see characters behaving in a fight when the rules stipulate that they're both "Bloodlusted" and "in character" with PIS off but CIS on?Also... that was just the first example to come to mind when id asked for an example of Surfer meeting all the requirements(which seem like common sense to me). I know a lot about Surfer, but even I can't give you an exact rundown of every fight he's ever been in.
Twas a joke, dude. I wasn't actually taking issue with your stance. It was just the pacifist on a roid rage, so I lol'd. Surfer's not even up for discussion in this thread currently, so I have no desire to debate him.
Other business:
Bill isn't getting moved. There's 10 votes against, and not nearly that many for's. So it's over as well.
I still have to go back and make a decision on Genis and a couple others.
Yeesh, this might take abit. 'ere we go.
Against Bill. Status issues aside, he just doesn't have the feats that put him up that high.
For Wally. A Flash who's fighting seriously is a force to be feared, and Wally is the most skilled. He also is a legacy character.
Not voting on Stryfe. Don't know the character well enough.
Against Magneto. He's not higher than low herald.
Against Apocalypse. It's not the right time yet. But it might be coming soon.....
For Orion. He's the go-to guy where the new gods and his father are concerned. In terms of importance, he's on Superman or Thor's level when it comes to anything new god. And in terms of power, he has the feats to compare to any high herald.
And Deadpool for High Herald durdpool
Originally posted by darthgoober
Actually if you have any clear insight as to the difference I'd love to hear it because the rules aren't very clear on it and it seems like no one can agree on it. It comes up from time to time here in the tiers thread and it does seem like it should be taken into consideration in how we rank them, so how do you see characters behaving in a fight when the rules stipulate that they're both "Bloodlusted" and "in character" with PIS off but CIS on?Also... that was just the first example to come to mind when id asked for an example of Surfer meeting all the requirements(which seem like common sense to me). I know a lot about Surfer, but even I can't give you an exact rundown of every fight he's ever been in.
The hell are you talking about?
Originally posted by Digi
Twas a joke, dude. I wasn't actually taking issue with your stance. It was just the pacifist on a roid rage, so I lol'd. Surfer's not even up for discussion in this thread currently, so I have no desire to debate him.Other business:
Bill isn't getting moved. There's 10 votes against, and not nearly that many for's. So it's over as well.
I still have to go back and make a decision on Genis and a couple others.
Originally posted by Kris Blaze
The hell are you talking about?
Under certain factors, Character Induced Stupidity can fall under Plot Induce Stupidity. PIS is a general outline, were certain where factors needed to be establish in order for the plot to progress. Where CIS is just one of the criteria, under the PIS clause.
Or at least that how I came to understand it.
I'm pretty sure Hulk has beaten Thor in most of their fights.
Is that judged on overall power, though? Because obviously overall, Thor is more powerful. It just hasn't seemed to have worked in his favour most often.
Not that I have issue with Thor being above Hulk, at all. I just wondered why he was.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
I'm pretty sure Hulk has beaten Thor in most of their fights.Is that judged on overall power, though? Because obviously overall, Thor is more powerful. It just hasn't seemed to have worked in his favour most often.
Not that I have issue with Thor being above Hulk, at all. I just wondered why he was.
-AC
That's basically it. You explained it perfectly, stating that Thor is obviously more powerful. The entirety of his feats is > Hulk's. So yeah, the list is intended to be overall power, not individual matchups.
There's not specific criteria, mind you, because making it too exact would eventually make it impossible to define. It needs to remain somewhat fluid to allow for exceptions to any rules we might want to make. So when someone asks "what defines Mid Herald" the answer is "nothing." The tiers are defined by those in them, because outside standardized criteria would be too difficult to form.
Ahhh.
I have less of an issue with Deadpool's placement in M.A. now, though I do still have certain problems. I wasn't entirely sure if these tiers were overall showings or not.
As for this list, I know Deadpool is immortal and, while not the best fighter technically, is one of. I know certain people have chosen to pay him off than fight him, and Domino once said that fighting Deadpool was tanamount to suicide.
I honestly don't mind where anyone is placed so long as it's fair. Nor do I wish to come across as a fanboy, I just feel that there are more characters in Marvel than fans on this forum have knowledge of, know what I mean, Digi? So, it irks me when I see someone I like possibly getting shafted because people don't know as much.
Low meta-human seemed criminal to me, for Deadpool, but then...he's above Batman, which I wouldn't have even said. Weird, again though, I guess that's what this thing need; combined knowledge. I haven't read enough of Batman to understand why he's there and not higher (I guess he's overhyped overall, despite being a great fighter).
Yet, there are some people in the same catagory as Deadpool that I don't understand; Gambit for example. He paid Deadpool off so as not to fight the guy.
I dunno, if he stays where he is, whatever. Just trying to see what kind of case I could make for him. Because, not to be arrogant, I have every 616 appearance he's ever made, so I'd go out on a limb and say I've seen showings others may have missed.
-AC
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Ahhh.I have less of an issue with Deadpool's placement in M.A. now, though I do still have certain problems. I wasn't entirely sure if these tiers were overall showings or not.
As for this list, I know Deadpool is immortal and, while not the best fighter technically, is one of. I know certain people have chosen to pay him off than fight him, and Domino once said that fighting Deadpool was tanamount to suicide.
I honestly don't mind where anyone is placed so long as it's fair. Nor do I wish to come across as a fanboy, I just feel that there are more characters in Marvel than fans on this forum have knowledge of, know what I mean, Digi? So, it irks me when I see someone I like possibly getting shafted because people don't know as much.
Low meta-human seemed criminal to me, for Deadpool, but then...he's above Batman, which I wouldn't have even said. Weird, again though, I guess that's what this thing need; combined knowledge. I haven't read enough of Batman to understand why he's there and not higher (I guess he's overhyped overall, despite being a great fighter).
Yet, there are some people in the same catagory as Deadpool that I don't understand; Gambit for example. He paid Deadpool off so as not to fight the guy.
I dunno, if he stays where he is, whatever. Just trying to see what kind of case I could make for him. Because, not to be arrogant, I have every 616 appearance he's ever made, so I'd go out on a limb and say I've seen showings others may have missed.
-AC
deadpool is low meta human because of his powers not how who he can beat. Batman is high street because of his non prep feats
Originally posted by Alpha Centauri
Ahhh.I have less of an issue with Deadpool's placement in M.A. now, though I do still have certain problems. I wasn't entirely sure if these tiers were overall showings or not.
As for this list, I know Deadpool is immortal and, while not the best fighter technically, is one of. I know certain people have chosen to pay him off than fight him, and Domino once said that fighting Deadpool was tanamount to suicide.
I honestly don't mind where anyone is placed so long as it's fair. Nor do I wish to come across as a fanboy, I just feel that there are more characters in Marvel than fans on this forum have knowledge of, know what I mean, Digi? So, it irks me when I see someone I like possibly getting shafted because people don't know as much.
Low meta-human seemed criminal to me, for Deadpool, but then...he's above Batman, which I wouldn't have even said. Weird, again though, I guess that's what this thing need; combined knowledge. I haven't read enough of Batman to understand why he's there and not higher (I guess he's overhyped overall, despite being a great fighter).
Yet, there are some people in the same catagory as Deadpool that I don't understand; Gambit for example. He paid Deadpool off so as not to fight the guy.
I dunno, if he stays where he is, whatever. Just trying to see what kind of case I could make for him. Because, not to be arrogant, I have every 616 appearance he's ever made, so I'd go out on a limb and say I've seen showings others may have missed.
-AC
Well, the MA rankings are on their own ranking scale, which I did not oversee, so I can only speak for this list. Mind you, also, it's not "my" list, but is decided upon by forum members in general. Anyway.
Deadpool's an odd example because of his immortality. But his skills are roughly the same as a lot of high street characters, but his epic healing abilities give him a decided edge over that crowd. But once you get into Mid Meta, you're starting to deal with mid-level telekinetic powers, telepathy, and strength/durability/speed that would give Wade more losses than wins. So even if he wouldn't be killed by anyone in, say, High meta, he is going to lose to them unless there's one helluva plot device or a lot of prep from Wade.
Some debate has been had about how much prep skills should come in account on this list. Batman and others would be higher than they are, because in a "Ready? Go!" scenario, Bats is no higher than where he is: High Street, but becoems higher with prep. I try to use it as an unofficial tiebreak in my votes if a character is between two tiers. But, formally speaking, we don't include prep in the list, which is why Bats is where he is.
"Street," btw, generally refers to anyone without powers. I.E. skill only. As soon as you have some sort of power (Spider-Man, Deadpool, etc.) you're pushed into Meta (unless the power is utterly useless).
Anyone can propose a change if they see the need for it, though, and then discussion sometimes progresses on that character. Hope that helps.
Yeah, I would never push for him to be in high-meta, even if he could take a few of them, because it's on overall power and he's just not that powerful.
I've always said that it's not your ability to keep coming back that means anything, it's your ability to not have to come back. Hence why I always said Hulk would beat Juggernaut, in the legendary thread. I just feel he'd win the overall fights, but wouldn't necessarily keep Juggernaut gone.
I do think that Deadpool has a shot at mid-Meta at most, but I wouldn't necessarily be fussed if not. There are some people there he would squash, but then he's not in bad company with Iron Fist and co either.
-AC