Originally posted by Galan007
ST is a peculiar case...-he has beaten characters like captain atom, red tornado, aquaman, grundy, green lanterns, superman, firestorm, constantine, etrigan, tefe, etc.; with the utmost of ease.
-he can dimension hop/teleport/time travel.
-steal souls.
-has literally 'grown' his mind outward in order to learn the secrets of the multiverse.
-is highly resistant to TP-related attacks, and nigh-immune to magic.
-he alone is more powerful than any of the other elemental parliments. this enables him to have control over ALL of the elements, at standard levels.
-his uncanny regrowing ability makes him, for all intents and purposes, unkillable [even by the likes of anti-matter.]not sure if the above 'factors' warrant an upgrade to trans-level, though. i mean, are there certain trans-level characters i feel ST could defeat? sure. do i feel that he is portrayed as a trans-level-character in the majority of his showings? not really.
He isn't really portrayed that way most of the time because he doesn't like to show off (not usually, at least). He's mostly a pacifist like Surfer, but he doesn't get into as many fights with high-level entities as Surfer does. But when he does, he brings some serious power to the table.
As for Miracleman, I don't believe he has any real showings to test his power. It's implied he was pretty strong, but he did get KO'd by a nuke (and someone else with the same powers who was slightly closer was killed by it).... The only other real feat we have is Kid Miracleman trashing London, which seemed to take a while and didn't cause widespread structural damage, however that could be attributed to his sadistic side, since he wanted to toture people instead of just killing them all at once. So it's hard to say.
in the vein of not enough appearances, count abyss appeared in exactly one warlock arc and there were only a couple issues where he used his power. i think he could be removed for 2 reasons, actually--not enough appearances, OR he transcends this tier. he's closer to dormammu or mephisto in his realm, i think, but regardless, with only a single appearance (unless someone know if he's appeared elsewhere since??) he should likely be taken off the list. 😬
i'd also call for a vote that drops despero to HH. his best feats are V&V but he's certainly had more HH level showings than trans level showings.
Originally posted by DigiCount Abyss, Magus(original),Onslaught and Tyrant (powered down) don't have that many appearances do they.
Yes, too few appearances has removed people. Speedfreek has about 5 comics to his name, including the non-appearance that was Civil War #1. Watchmen characters were formerly removed for similar reasons, though a few of them might still be lingering. The big controversy was over Manhattan.
Also isn't Trans lvl a bit too high for High Evolutionary.
Originally posted by Nihilist
Count Abyss, Magus(original),Onslaught and Tyrant (powered down) don't have that many appearances do they.Also isn't Trans lvl a bit too high for High Evolutionary.
tyrant and his appearances are currently being discussed. i'm not sure about magus, but you might have a point with onslaught as well, though we had a pretty good indication of the extent og the armored version of onslaught's powers. 😬
Yeah, Onslaught has enough appearances. The only people removed have literally had single-digit appearances. The Onslaught saga + tie-ins gave him easily a couple dozen, if not more.
Tyrant's likely being removed on such grounds. Just haven't had time to confirm his appearance count. Others can be discussed, though my gut tells me Magus has enough as well.
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HE is interesting because his feats are all over the place. He's held his own against Galactus and lost to those under Trans. Weird character, making his placement tough.
I'd be against Despero. Do we have more recent showings to suggest that V&V isn't his current power level?
Originally posted by Digi
Yeah, Onslaught has enough appearances. The only people removed have literally had single-digit appearances. The Onslaught saga + tie-ins gave him easily a couple dozen, if not more.Tyrant's likely being removed on such grounds. Just haven't had time to confirm his appearance count. Others can be discussed, though my gut tells me Magus has enough as well.
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HE is interesting because his feats are all over the place. He's held his own against Galactus and lost to those under Trans. Weird character, making his placement tough.
I'd be against Despero. Do we have more recent showings to suggest that V&V isn't his current power level?
he's had appearances in JLA (where he mindraped almost the entire league bar superman), S/B (where he helped take over every alien on earth and send them after superman (heh, pattern emerging), and he was in trinity, but i didn't read all of that book, so i have no idea what showings he's had in it.
Originally posted by -Pr-
he's had appearances in JLA (where he mindraped almost the entire league bar superman), S/B (where he helped take over every alien on earth and send them after superman (heh, pattern emerging), and he was in trinity, but i didn't read all of that book, so i have no idea what showings he's had in it.
S/B wasn't due to mind rape, though, so really has no bearing on his power level. And he was still tooled by Superman. Like he usually is.
I'd move Despero to High Herald. His appearances with the Flame of Pytar powerup were PC, weren't they? And V&V is probably his best showing, Post-Crisis. Even that reeked of PIS. I don't have the comic in front of me, but I think it was Power Girl and Hourman who were thrown to the ground by Despero and simply never got back up. And it was either Captain Marvel or Superman who was tugging on Despero's cape in one scan, and in the next, he simply wasn't there at all. It was just...a strange battle. And his durability definitely didn't seem trans-like or higher, which is consistent with all of his other appearances.
For Despero to HH.
And I don't know enough about ST to render a vote on him.
I'm beginning to wonder what constitutes Trans if Despero gets voted down (I'm still against, btw). Are we going to endlessly say "has he done every one of these 12 high-end feats that Surfer/Thor/Superman has?" despite the fact that a lot of them don't. Hell, friggin' Thanos can't match every one of Surfer's feats, for example. Probably the same with Thor or Supes. Thanos to HH? Please.
Seems to me like team-wreckers (provided the team has sufficient herald-levelers) are almost by their very definition Trans-level. Despero has wrecked teams composed of HHs and MHs. I couldn't care less if he has some lower showings in his "classic" incarnations. This isn't a average rating of all incarnations and eras. It's current unless otherwise specified.
ss has pretty much wrecked the avengers. superman has gone through the JLA a couple times. hal also wrecked the jla all by himself. count nefaria demolished the avengers a couple times. i see what you're saying though. the last time i saw despero beat the jla he did it by taking them essentially one at a time and he wasn't able to cleanly defeat superman. i don't really have a problem if despero stays. it seems he should be between HH ans trans so i asked myself is he closer to thanos (who is very clearly well beyond ss) or closer to ss in power. it seems he is closer to ss, imo.